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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Game Design/Development  |  Topic: "when people realize the endgame blows" 0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: "when people realize the endgame blows"  (Read 56958 times)
Arnold
Terracotta Army
Posts: 813


Reply #70 on: June 07, 2005, 08:27:44 AM


5: How would the adventurers even know you were hiring?

Xilren

Why is it that no one ever thinks of putting a sign in MMOs?  Whether a really big billboard or just a plank on a stick in the ground.  Would seem to solve a number of these issues in "fantasy" settings.  I'm sure there's some BS answer about storage, but seriously, I don't see it.

It's been done, in the oldest MMOG to boot.  Don't you remember wandering about the east Brit Bank and seeing people spam "INGOTS XXX!!!"  "BOARDS XXX!", etc?
lamaros
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Posts: 8021


Reply #71 on: June 07, 2005, 06:51:17 PM

It's been done, in the oldest MMOG to boot.  Don't you remember wandering about the east Brit Bank and seeing people spam "INGOTS XXX!!!"  "BOARDS XXX!", etc?

It was done much earlier than that, and much better.

Walk in to most MUD cities and you'll find a room that has a bulletin board. Filled with posts titles such as:

"Looking for a Dagger OF Fire"
"Selling Ring Of Wizardry"
Etc.

I'll harp on this point for ever. Bulletin Boards sould be far more common in MMOGs! Community building, item/clan advertising, spam uncluttering, and many more reasons beside!
Pococurante
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Reply #72 on: June 08, 2005, 04:22:03 AM

Bulletin boards existed in UO from day one.  Just no one used them.

Makes sense - open-air markets IRL are noisy places too.
Yegolev
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Reply #73 on: June 08, 2005, 12:55:01 PM

Bulletin boards existed in UO from day one.  Just no one used them.

Makes sense - open-air markets IRL are noisy places too.

I agree, if you walk into a marketplace, you can expect people to be selling you on crap in the usual manner.  Using /yell or whatever game-appropriate tool.  It would spare my sanity a bit to keep the market off to the side, but then how do you keep the used-camel salesman from spamming some other, more well-traveled area?  Because he will, since most people aren't looking to buy something.  I can only think that it would have to be handled as in real life: city ordinances.  I'd love to see a NPC guard take a swipe at some dick for shouting trades in the wrong area.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Samwise
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Reply #74 on: June 08, 2005, 01:04:24 PM

I can only think that it would have to be handled as in real life: city ordinances.  I'd love to see a NPC guard take a swipe at some dick for shouting trades in the wrong area.

Now, how does the game figure out what's an "inappropriate" yell and what isn't?  At the risk of starting a player justice derail, here's an idea: let players in the area do a "/stfu" on people who are yelling.  If a certain number/percentage of players all /stfu, the city guard takes notice and chases the offender off.  That way people who have genuinely interesting announcements (slim chance, but it COULD happen... "I'm quitting the game and giving my priceless stuff away" is one example) wouldn't get arrested for spamming, but people spamming "OMG FAGOT LOL" would get hauled off immediately.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
HaemishM
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Reply #75 on: June 08, 2005, 01:14:02 PM

Bulletin boards existed in UO from day one.  Just no one used them.

Makes sense - open-air markets IRL are noisy places too.

Hell, they existed in EQ as well, and no one used them or knew they were there. I only found one by accident in Qeynos. The existence of bulletin boards is meaningless if they aren't easy to use or documented.

lamaros
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Posts: 8021


Reply #76 on: June 08, 2005, 06:23:08 PM

As with everything, they have to be implemented well to work.

I know that I personaly would have used a BB in WoW, especialy if it was linked to the battle.net realm forums.
Pococurante
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Reply #77 on: June 08, 2005, 07:11:01 PM

So would delinquents.
lamaros
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Reply #78 on: June 08, 2005, 07:31:09 PM

Yeah. That's why you need a GM who would moderates properly and often, and link forums/bb violations to the account.
Shockeye
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Reply #79 on: June 08, 2005, 07:33:18 PM

Yeah. That's why you need a GM who would moderates properly and often, and link forums/bb violations to the account.

That's just crazy talk.
Yegolev
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Reply #80 on: June 09, 2005, 10:24:52 AM

Now, how does the game figure out what's an "inappropriate" yell and what isn't? ... "I'm quitting the game and giving my priceless stuff away" is one example) wouldn't get arrested for spamming, but people spamming "OMG FAGOT LOL" would get hauled off immediately.

At the risk of stating something obvious or perhaps stupid since I'm not a programmer, it is entirely possible for the program to monitor chat or chew logs and issue warnings.  It is also entirely possible for this to be driven by a statistical analysis such as with a Bayesian spam filter; you can either issue warnings on things that look like spam, or be aggressive and issue warnings on things that don't look like "normal" talk.  The database, like the spam filter, should be trained by a real person (not players), but this real person should only have to spend some time each week browsing chat logs for things the filter didn't catch.  Might be better to have a /spam_report command so players could send in stuff, depending on chat volume.  Properly written robots could simply generate a list of asshats rather than issue warnings directly, or there could simply be a grace period during which the warned could appeal.
Some ass-numbers:
Three(?) consecutive un-responded-to warnings gets you guard aggro; obviously you are an antisocial miscreant.
Using the exact same text three(?) times within twenty seconds gets you guard aggro; don't spam, fucker.
Unless you are in the marketplace.

This would be a low-hanging-fruit solution, obviously, and as such should be fairly benign with the warnings it issues, since mistakes will happen.  Augmentation with warnings based on specific words would be great.  Two months of Korean open beta should be enough to get the word database in decent shape.

Employing the example of ATiTD, I have no problem with ordinances that affect particular users.  If player Cocktard de'Azz is bothersome enough for other players to run a bill through the in-game legal system, he needs to be dealt with.  This could be making him KOS to the guards in some areas, or everywhere in a certain town.

However, the inapropriate use of areas is due to bad design.  Apparently no one on the design team knew that the EC tunnel was the perfect place to sell shit.  Of course it was, because it was a fucking bottleneck in travel.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
HaemishM
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Reply #81 on: June 09, 2005, 11:50:20 AM

However, the inapropriate use of areas is due to bad design.  Apparently no one on the design team knew that the EC tunnel was the perfect place to sell shit.  Of course it was, because it was a fucking bottleneck in travel.

And because there were no guards there that KOSed evil races. It was truly the most convenient, non-KOS area in the game, with easy access to portals and a bank (well, easy for EQ at that time). It was the hub of the game that they claimed Freeport was in the lore.

Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #82 on: June 09, 2005, 01:27:49 PM

Why would we be taking exception to the EQ tunnel though?  I dont mind at all that the player base tends to adapt their own areas of intrest.  I find it much more damning of the world design that at least 1/3rd of the zones in EQ are NEVER visited because the xp/time ratio sucks balls and the grind is so bad that doing anything that isn't optimal is considered insanity.

Last time I played you did not deviate from:

local newb leveling > oasis (the beach w/ the specters) > lake of ill omen. 

Period that was where you went and if you ventured to other zones with mobs of those level ranges you would find them devoid of life.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Jayce
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Diluted Fool


Reply #83 on: June 10, 2005, 05:25:28 AM


And because there were no guards there that KOSed evil races. It was truly the most convenient, non-KOS area in the game, with easy access to portals and a bank (well, easy for EQ at that time). It was the hub of the game that they claimed Freeport was in the lore.

I think emergent behavior like this is one of the most interesting aspects of games - online or not. The EQ tunnel, Quake rocket jumping and (plz no) UO pre-casting are all unintended but interesting game mechanics.

Regarding using spam filters in chat, while I am pretty impressed with the Bayesian filters you can find for email these days, I'm pretty dubious that any AI-like monitoring of chat would be successful.  The miscreants would find ways around it, and you'd get false positives on too many innocents.  Same as it ever was...

Witty banter not included.
Pococurante
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Posts: 2060


Reply #84 on: June 10, 2005, 10:03:35 AM

... and (plz no) UO pre-casting are all unintended but interesting game mechanics.

/grumble

Unintended sure, but interesting in the same way as sneaking an ace out of one's sleeve.
Yegolev
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Reply #85 on: June 14, 2005, 10:59:18 AM

Why would we be taking exception to the EQ tunnel though?

The only real problem I had with the tunnel was the damn yelling, whether I was in the tunnel or not.  Just making it a separate zone would have been perfect.  Otherwise it was great.  People should learn from this example, really, and make a super-duper marketplace in X.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Hoax
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Posts: 8110

l33t kiddie


Reply #86 on: June 14, 2005, 11:20:58 AM

I have always enjoyed the strange things player-communities come up with when they make gameplay better.  Marketplace areas are often the most obvious examples, but I agree that the actual marketplace mechanics should be a bigger priority with devs then they seem to be.  I enjoyed Ragnarok's (yes I played it) market system as there was very little spam and it was fun checking out tons of shops hoping to find some kind of great deal.

A really good example of something that basically reinvented the game would be skiing in Tribes1.  It was always stated by the devs that it was an unintended feature but basically it was the reason Tribes was and is the best CTF ever invented by human hands.



A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Raph
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Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #87 on: June 14, 2005, 01:08:34 PM

My mantra these days:

NO
•   Fee
•   Shards
•   HUD
•   Levels
•   Skills
•   Inventory management
•   Tutorial
•   Dragons or elves
•   Grind
•   Boobies
•   Travel
•   Static zones
•   Tedium or makework
•   Hotkey fests
•   Spreadsheets
•   Oppressive maintenance
•   4 hour sessions
•   4 gig installs

 
YES
•   …to swords
•   Explosions
•   Fun in 10 minute blocks
•   Building
•   Groups levelling up together
•   Player skill required
•   User content
•   Consequence to actions
•   Competition
•   60+ player games
•   Interdependence
•   Embedded experiences
•   Self-directed pursuits
•   Humor and wit
•   Intelligence
•   Obvious play mechanics
•   Quality story and worldbuilding


schild
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Posts: 60345


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Reply #88 on: June 14, 2005, 01:30:16 PM

Other than Yes to Swords - unless it's  Rune style twitch system - I'd like to see you make a game like that. But I can't imagine Smed and Co.'s leash is long enough to support your mantra. Please, Raph, for the love of god, walk the walk.

And make a good virtual world. No one else is.
WayAbvPar
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Posts: 19268


Reply #89 on: June 14, 2005, 01:46:29 PM

Quote
YES
•   …to swords
•   Explosions
•   Fun in 10 minute blocks
•   Building
•   Groups levelling up together
•   Player skill required
•   User content
•   Consequence to actions
•   Competition
•   60+ player games
•   Interdependence
•   Embedded experiences
•   Self-directed pursuits
•   Humor and wit
•   Intelligence
•   Obvious play mechanics
•   Quality story and worldbuilding

With or without swords, this sounds like a good direction.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
voodoolily
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Reply #90 on: June 14, 2005, 01:51:57 PM

I, for one would love to see swords and explosions in the same game. Two great tastes that taste great together!

Voodoo & Sauce - a blog.
The Legend of Zephyr - a different blog.
Yegolev
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Reply #91 on: June 14, 2005, 01:53:29 PM

Quote
YES
•   …to swords
•   Explosions
•   Fun in 10 minute blocks
•   Building
•   Groups levelling up together
•   Player skill required
•   User content
•   Consequence to actions
•   Competition
•   60+ player games
•   Interdependence
•   Embedded experiences
•   Self-directed pursuits
•   Humor and wit
•   Intelligence
•   Obvious play mechanics
•   Quality story and worldbuilding

With or without swords, this sounds like a good direction.

Sounds more like vaporous buzzwords to me.  Not that I am trying to discourage Raph.  Too many Dilbertian meetings.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
WindupAtheist
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Posts: 7028

Badicalthon


Reply #92 on: June 14, 2005, 01:57:51 PM

Just remake UO with more shiny and less r0xx0r already.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Raph
Developers
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Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #93 on: June 14, 2005, 02:30:28 PM

Swords is a stand-in for "swashbuckling derring-do." Just like explosions is a stand-in for "dramatic exciting feedback."

Yeah, it is vaporous buzzwords. But sets of buzzwords are the building blocks of philosophies and game visions and so on.

I'm not giving up on virtual worlds. And yes, my leash is long enough in the R&D group.
schild
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Posts: 60345


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Reply #94 on: June 14, 2005, 02:58:52 PM

That's good to hear. Hopefully something will come out of the R&D group that has absolutely nothing to do with anything that's on the market though.
Bunk
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Operating Thetan One


Reply #95 on: June 14, 2005, 03:03:45 PM

I like the Yes list, it looks good. I'm willing to bet that Marketing manages to slip Boobies back in to the Yes list when you're not looking though.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
"I have retard strength." - Schild
Raguel
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Reply #96 on: June 14, 2005, 04:39:47 PM


That Yes List is a good start.  :mrgreen:
Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #97 on: June 14, 2005, 04:42:29 PM

My mantra these days:

NO
•   HUD
•   Levels
•   Skills
•   Tutorial
•   Dragons or elves
•   Grind
•   Static zones
•   Tedium or makework
•   Hotkey fests
•   Spreadsheets
•   Oppressive maintenance
•   4 hour sessions

Amended the No list to remove things I can easily tolerate if a game isn't a goddamn EQ clone.  Hell if you can get 100% of the yes list I would put up with almost everything on the No list except hotkey fests, elves and tedium.  The Yes list is a sexy beast.  Whats with all the promises of nice things on the distant horizons recently?  A glut of fps-mmog hybrids, tbs mmog announcements and the promise of a SoE product more along the path of Pside then EQ?  Somebody freeze me and wake me up when any of these lovely dream-products actually releases in a non-buggy state that still resembles the flowery words we always hear before the crushing reality of easy $$$ clone games > innovation sets in.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
HaemishM
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Posts: 42628

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Reply #98 on: June 15, 2005, 08:57:09 AM

Boobies are on your no list. This is a crime against nature, and the pr0ncow is not happy.

Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #99 on: June 15, 2005, 09:14:31 AM

My mantra these days:

YES
•   Consequence to actions
•   Interdependence
•   Self-directed pursuits
•   Intelligence


I want all of these in a game.  Sadly, it appears the American mass market does not.  The popularity of WoW signifies the fact that people want none of these things in their MMO experience.  My retention in the current iteration of mmog's has been very short due mostly to the lack of these four ideas.  I don't want to be lead by the nose, I don't want to be able to do everything well, I don't want to win every encounter easily, and I certainly don't want to be insulted by an overtly simplistic game format.

I like solving puzzles.  I like my games to be difficult to a point that I feel I've done something when I've overcome a challenge.  I like having a role in a gaming world that cannot be duplicated by everyone else... being a specialist as it were.  If you can incorporate these 4 concepts into an mmog without it feeling like a job, I'll become your biggest fan.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Yegolev
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Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


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Reply #100 on: June 15, 2005, 01:14:11 PM

Yeah, it is vaporous buzzwords. But sets of buzzwords are the building blocks of philosophies and game visions and so on.

I'm not giving up on virtual worlds. And yes, my leash is long enough in the R&D group.

Yeah, don't mind me, I have been ruined by too much Massive Corporation Bullshit.  You have to create the bulleted PowerPoint prsentations to get the management on your side.  Facts are not necessarily your friends when playing corp politics.

I do think that the virtual world goal is the best one; somehow I am always disappointed when I sign up for something new and it's just another Diku.  This is why I like Grand Theft Auto so much, particularly the sprawling San Andreas.  It's not just some open field of smashy-smashy, but there are short-term consequences for bad behavior.  Implementing some sort of repercussion for people being shitfuckers is vital.  But what the hell am I saying?  You know all this.  I'll just give you my nodding, slackjawed support.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #101 on: June 15, 2005, 01:22:23 PM

You know.  We hear "virtual world" as a buzzword all the time.  I'm not convinced that a virtual world is even what people really want.  People want a virtual world where they are the ones that make the world change.  Given the scale of MMOG's, we'd be seeing virtual worlds controlled by catassing asshats with nothing better to do in their life than ruin it for the rest of us with significantly less play time.  I don't want to live in their world thank you very much.   

On a similar note, I do enjoy a game with a social hook.  Give me a reason to interact with other players beyond killing ubermob_8479 with 6 gajillion hit points.  A Tale in the Desert was a step in the right direction in building a virtual community.  Teppy just killed it with chores and mind-numbing click fests. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


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Reply #102 on: June 15, 2005, 01:34:46 PM

The popularity of WoW signifies the fact that people want none of these things in their MMO experience.

I am assuming that most of the people playing WoW have never played a MOG before.  If I were to apply my own sick-of-this timeline to them, I figure that many of them will sign up for this forum in five years, unified by a common experience in MMO shitcockery.  We will then fight for nine months before each choosing a micro-niche MOG in which to create a Bat Country guild.  So let it be written.

Seriously, though, you can't assume that a random sampling of WoW players knows anything at all about other MOGs.  Who knows what they want?  I bet they have no idea what they want.

About the (any) virtual world, I agree with your points.  Some catass repellent needs to be sprayed all up in that bitch.  Someone just needs to invent catass repellent first.  I think it should come in the form of gameplay that does not equate "time played" with "I win", for one thing.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


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Reply #103 on: June 15, 2005, 04:42:59 PM

I don't know. I want a virtual world where I can sell stuff and come up with the packaging and shit. Sim Mall, online, where I can own an In-And-Out burger and fag up the entire place. It'd be great. I mean, that's just an example. What would be even cooler is if that mall was a lobby to hop into other game worlds or mini game worlds in an arcade or something. Wait, I'm sorry, that's too good of an idea for the industry right now.

Just give me something without levels, we'll move on from there.
Hoax
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8110

l33t kiddie


Reply #104 on: June 15, 2005, 05:05:34 PM

You know.  We hear "virtual world" as a buzzword all the time.  I'm not convinced that a virtual world is even what people really want.  People want a virtual world where they are the ones that make the world change.  Given the scale of MMOG's, we'd be seeing virtual worlds controlled by catassing asshats with nothing better to do in their life than ruin it for the rest of us with significantly less play time.  I don't want to live in their world thank you very much.   

I'm inclined to agree with you there, unfortunately the only good example of what I would even consider a virtual world is EVE.  Unfortunately, due to the serious lack of fun in many areas of the game it is hard to have a good discussion about virtual worlds based upon it.  Any attempt will be quickly sidetracked by a ton of people pointing out how mining in EVE is about as boring as gaming gets.

I do think creating a world that reacts to player input in a meaningful way should be a definate goal of the "medium" but for now lets focus on those other minor details.

/played > player skill
levels
raid content and the uber guild cock-in-ass politics that it spawns (I'm fine with epic, boss style npc encounters but there has to be a better way right?)

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
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