Kingdom of Heaven

[Bunk]

Hollywood wouldn't do that would they? 

Maybe they could have an American come over and teach the Crusaders how to fight, and then be the only guy to survive the climactic battle!

Or they could just condense all of the Crusades in to a two week war. Oh, and eliminate any mention of God, since that might confuse people.

Why are you worried? Hollywood always has great ideas when it comes to historical war dramas!!!

[Llava]

Wait wait wait... the crusaders weren't the goodguys?

But... they're Christian!
And white!
And the future founders of the Bastion of All That Is Right- America!

Unless the ones doing the crusades were the ancestors of those damn British who tried to keep America down!  I bet that's it.

[stray]

I don't think there were any "good guys" in those wars. The Catholics and Muslims were equal in that respect.

I respect Ridley Scott enough to think that he may already know that.

[HaemishM]

He's not the one I'm worried about.

[Strazos]

Well, the European Crusaders were probably "less good" than the Arabic peoples.

Foreign Invasions, and all that.

[stray]

Well, the European Crusaders were probably "less good" than the Arabic peoples.

Foreign Invasions, and all that.

Ehh....Ever heard of the "Jihad"?

[Rasix]

Well, the European Crusaders were probably "less good" than the Arabic peoples.

Foreign Invasions, and all that.

I take it you've never hear of "Spain".

[WayAbvPar]

Well, the European Crusaders were probably "less good" than the Arabic peoples.

Foreign Invasions, and all that.

I take it you've never hear of "Spain".

Those damnable Moops.

[Johny Cee]

Cross plug to Books thread!  The First Crusade is in bookstores now!  And a good read....

Basically,  there weren't any good guys in the First Crusade.  The crusaders started with a slight moral advantage,  with coming off of the Muslim invasion/take over of Spain and the Iberian Pen. as well as the Crusade as a response to the Byzantium call for help to the Pope (Muslim factions had been chewing off portions of the Eastern Empire for centuries,  and were starting to threaten Constantinople).

This was quickly ceded by xenophobic actions enroute to foreign and Jewish communities in Europe,  and general barbarism of the Crusaders once they got to the Middle East.

The later Crusades were more about land hunger and gain than anything else.  Sacking Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade was exactly a charitable act either....

[Teleku]

Oh come on, if you had the opportunity, you’d sack Constantinople too.  I know I would.

[Samwise]

I'd hit it.

[pants]

Why bother sacking Constantinople?  Its a dump.

Now Istanbul, now there's a city!

[Murgos]

Sacking Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade was exactly a charitable act either....

It has given us one of the greatest quotes in history though, "Kill them all, god will know his own."  I mean seriously, thats some stone cold shit right there.  Tarantino just wishes he could write dialogue like that.

[HaemishM]

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Nobody was a "good guy" in the Crusades. The Byzantines asked for help because they could no longer defend their conquered lands from the Muslims. The Crusaders themselves just wanted church-approved land holdings in the Middle East that they could get income from. The Muslims wanted to conquer it alll in the name of Allah, and slaughter those who didn't comply. The Crusades were just one of the ugliest messes ever in the history of the world, on all sides.

But they should make for fantastic battle scenes, and really shitty, overly-dramatic speeches that have nothing to do with the history.

[stray]

Sacking Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade was exactly a charitable act either....

It has given us one of the greatest quotes in history though, "Kill them all, god will know his own."  I mean seriously, thats some stone cold shit right there.  Tarantino just wishes he could write dialogue like that.

I'm thinking R. Lee Ermey would have been a good casting choice in this flick.

Oh well. Missed opportunity.

[Johny Cee]

Nobody was a "good guy" in the Crusades. The Byzantines asked for help because they could no longer defend their conquered lands from the Muslims. The Crusaders themselves just wanted church-approved land holdings in the Middle East that they could get income from. The Muslims wanted to conquer it alll in the name of Allah, and slaughter those who didn't comply. The Crusades were just one of the ugliest messes ever in the history of the world, on all sides.

But they should make for fantastic battle scenes, and really shitty, overly-dramatic speeches that have nothing to do with the history.

A lot of research supports the First Crusade as being a more religious/cultural event,  as well as the West's answer to the espoused ideal of Islamic Jihad.  A fair sized portion of the First Crusade's leadership was made of nobles that spent far more to prosecute the war than they could ever hope to earn back with the new land holdings in a reasonable period of time.  I think there was a fairly commonly held belief that it was essentially a suicide mission...

By this point in history,  Byzantium was pretty much down to the ethnic Greeks.  They really didn't start to panic until the traditionally ethnic Greek areas of Asia Minor started falling. 

Islam had been expanding my conquests for a few centuries by that point,  and clearly demarcated Moslem from non-Moslem as far as violence was concerned.  The Crusades marked the first time Moslems sided with Christians against other Moslems, I think.

I wouldn't describe the Crusades as particularly ugly,  historically speaking.  Most modern wars make it look tame.  Gengis Khan, Attila, and other barbarian/steppe leaders were famous for putting entire cities to the sword.  Gengis did this in far more populated India and China,  and had death tolls of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Hell,  by ancient standards it's not that bad.  Ancient Greeks/Persians thought nothing of sacking, burning, killing or enslaving entire regions.  Than salting the earth for good measure.  To say nothing of Rome.

Or English treatment of Ireland between the time it was first conquered till the 19th century.

History is a bloody fucking mess.  Pointing out one person/group as particularly bad MOSTLY has more present political motives than it does historical reality.

[HaemishM]

Maybe it's just my aversion to the "Convert or die" mentality that permeates the Crusades on both sides that makes me think it's particularly ugly.

There are few wars one could even come close to calling "civilized," or anything other butt-ugly messes. The Seven Years War and most of the early-to-mid 18th century wars was probably as close as one could come, being called "The Sport of Kings" because of an almost unspoken agreement against the kind of scorched earth total war policy that had innundated the religiuos wars of the previous century. After the ancient period, I really think that the most egregious and systemic abuses of conquered peoples come from wars in which one side or the other believes it has the divine right to wage war, as opposed to the more politically-motivated wars.

Genghis Khan was just a ruthless sumbitch. I don't think his cruelty was out of meanness so much as absolute efficiency.

[Sky]

Speaking of "convert or die", check out this month's Rolling Stone, there's an article about the Dominionists in there worth reading. Of particular relevance to Haemcow's quote, their new "pledge of allegiance", which wraps up with some bit about life and liberty /for all who believe/, and the preceding lines assure that the belief is in Hayzeus and nobody else. Tragic, imo. It'd be worse if they weren't in bed with the folks who control the administrative and legislative branches and are eyeing control of the judiciary, as well.

Bah, forget I said anything, makes me too nuts. All in the name of god. Apparently...god needs to sell a lot of product and isn't very good at delivering messages himself.

[Strazos]

Johny Cee just reminded me of something....

We need mroe ancient history-based movies. Not trash like Troy, but stuff based upon the Persian Wars (esp. Marathon), or the Peloponneian Wars.

Hell, someone please give me The Illiad done correctly please, with the drama between the gods, kthx. At least, from what I remember, someone did The Odyssey correctly a few years ago as a mini-series. It had Vanessa Williams if I remember correctly as Calypso.

Well, here's to hoping Kingdom of Heaven doesn't completely butcher the source material.

[WayAbvPar]

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

And now I know what I will be singing in my head all day. I guess it could be worse- TMBG kicks all kinds of ass.

[Strazos]

I was tempted to post something like that. Thanks for doing my bidding, chief.

[HaemishM]

I could have quoted Particle Man, but it wouldn't have fit the thread.

[stray]

Johny Cee just reminded me of something....

We need mroe ancient history-based movies. Not trash like Troy, but stuff based upon the Persian Wars (esp. Marathon), or the Peloponneian Wars.

Hell, someone please give me The Illiad done correctly please, with the drama between the gods, kthx. At least, from what I remember, someone did The Odyssey correctly a few years ago as a mini-series. It had Vanessa Williams if I remember correctly as Calypso.

Well, here's to hoping Kingdom of Heaven doesn't completely butcher the source material.

I'd like to see a movie of Socrates myself. A comedy!

There's got to be a way to make it fairly accurate and entertaining, without being too dialogue heavy for movie audiences.

[Strazos]

There's got to be a way to make it fairly accurate and entertaining, without being too dialogue heavy for movie audiences.

Therein lies the problem. 

[Llava]

Johny Cee just reminded me of something....

We need mroe ancient history-based movies. Not trash like Troy, but stuff based upon the Persian Wars (esp. Marathon), or the Peloponneian Wars.

Hell, someone please give me The Illiad done correctly please, with the drama between the gods, kthx. At least, from what I remember, someone did The Odyssey correctly a few years ago as a mini-series. It had Vanessa Williams if I remember correctly as Calypso.

Well, here's to hoping Kingdom of Heaven doesn't completely butcher the source material.

I'd like to see a movie of Socrates myself. A comedy!

There's got to be a way to make it fairly accurate and entertaining, without being too dialogue heavy for movie audiences.

I can just imagine it:

Socrates is drinking the poison from the chalice when he stops for a moment, throws his head back victoriously and shouts, "FREEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!"  Then he goes back to drinking.

[Sky]

Fire up some Roman Red, Mel Brookes already made the best history movie :P

[ClydeJr]

At least, from what I remember, someone did The Odyssey correctly a few years ago as a mini-series. It had Vanessa Williams if I remember correctly as Calypso.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118414/
Amand Assante was Odysseus, Isabella Rossellini was Athena, and Christopher Lee was Tiresias. Its available on Netflix.

[schild]

I love Armand Assante's Oddyssey. It's another one of my guilty pleasures.

I got it on VCD from Korea before the DVD came out. Then I bought that. Weeee. Can't wait for high-def.

I hope they box it with Knight's Tale and Stephen King's IT.

[Strazos]

Shizam!!

Speaking of Arman Assante, take a look at the top of his credits...

Gilgamesh

Yum yum, gimme some.

Someone needs to do a good Beowulf also.  :mrgreen:

[stray]

Someone needs to do a good Beowulf also.  :mrgreen:

For now, you get the Highlander version. Enjoy.

[schild]

The closest thing we'll probably ever get to a good Beowulf is 13th Warrior with Antonio Banderas.