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Author Topic: Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings  (Read 8682 times)
schild
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Reply #70 on: December 11, 2021, 08:32:37 AM

We know Bruce has reverted and healed his arm, somehow.
His arm is still injured.


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Reply #71 on: December 11, 2021, 10:14:58 AM

Ok. I finally watched this. It was fucking great. Leung is one of the best baddies in MCU one-off history. Now I can respond to things.

Shang-Chi... watching this movie I gave it a C-. Thinking about this movie makes this drift toward a D. This is ranked third beside Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 as worst marvel movie of all time. The movie tries very hard to get us to care about the fight scenes, which are great, but also forget to have them matter to the overall narrative. So out of like 5-6 action set pieces only 2 of them actually needed to happen and only 1 of them star Shang-Chi...the main character...of the movie.

Like this movies tone is literally all over the place... Shang-Chi has the backstory of Natasha Romanoff but the side characters you find in Spiderman Homecoming and no one thought to themselves that those two things don't mix... And the funniest part is, maybe they could have worked it out if it wasn't for the fact that the most interesting point in Shang-Chi life was when he was 14 not 29... Literally just change the movie to a 14 year old Shang-Chi instead of the late 20s early 30s dude and the character and the movie would have made way more sense and also would have been much better for it.

It was a shit movie and shit director and getting a sequel.



You're both idiots.

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Now getting to other comments:

MCU sequels have a history of being better than the first ones, and I think that's because characters learn how to lean into their characters way way harder.

Thor 2 really stands out as being the only one like, hilariously worse.

Anyway, this movie was great and expanded the universe in extremely relevant ways. We know Bruce has reverted and healed his arm, somehow. We know the 10 rings have called at the very least, one of the upcoming big baddies. Along with Zendaya and a few other notable characters (much to my chagrin, Kat Dennings), we now have another relevant human in the mix. Also, Tim Roth on the same side as Wong which implies Bruce has kept tabs on Abomination.

8/10. Not S-tier, but certainly A-tier.

The first 5 minutes are Disney trash though.

Hate to break it to you but the movie was trash. Only buoyed by a pandemic and people literally having nothing to watch. At best its mediocre garbage that will get a sequel because Disney doesn't know any better. The sequel will bomb, people will blame all kinds of shit, and the franchise and character will be forgotten. I'm sorry but it takes more than fight scenes that are bastardizations of Jackie Chan movies to impress me, especially when 3/5 of those fight scenes didn't need to actually happen per the plot of the movie.
Phildo
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Reply #72 on: December 11, 2021, 11:34:08 AM

Man complains about fight scenes not needing to happen in the kung fu movie.  Do you watch Fast & Furious movies and complain about all the car chases, too?
Samwise
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Reply #73 on: December 11, 2021, 11:38:01 AM

I bet he hates all the unnecessary singing in musicals.

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Threash
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Reply #74 on: December 11, 2021, 01:12:41 PM

I just can't imagine what is going through the head of someone who looks at a bog standard MCU movie and goes "this one is trash". There are a few stand out movies in there, there are a couple below average ones, the other 20 or so are all the same quality. It's fucking ridiculous to single out.

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Reply #75 on: December 11, 2021, 01:46:39 PM

A good kung fu movie has a plot that ties the action together. Hell any good action movie has a reason for any of the conflict to actually happen. Otherwise why doesn't everyone fawn over Michael Bay movies?

The problem is that the narrative and tone is all over the place. The Mandarin, who oscillates between being a ruthless mob boss , loving dad, and a GI-Joe villain, stages much of the conflict around the resurrection/retrieval of his dead wife. He opens the moving by sending thugs after his son, a guy who he admits he may need to bring back his wife. A guy you just forced out of cozy situation at gunpoint. Way to go. Then he decides to double down and almost kill his daughter, who he also requests assistance from and actually would have helped you...if you actually talked to her before you sent men to kill her... ok...so your their Dad, your family estranged but they don't hate you... so why not just meet them in person?? Why not fly to sons apartment and wait to *gasp* have a conversation with him?

So essentially any fight scenes before they meet The Mandarin serve zero narrative purpose. Just there because the movie needed action scenes, which is a thing that usually happens in bad movies.

Compare this to like Black Widow where there is arguably one unnecessary fight scene between Natasha and Yelena, which is forgivable since the movie only does that once and it doesn't contradict the plot too much those characters differing views on their relationship. Fuck even Captain Marvel didn't have some nonsense where Nick Fury fights Carol Danvers because the movie had too many talking scenes and not enough punchy ones.

But all this wouldn't be a problem, the actions scenes were cool in insolation, if it wasn't for the third act being a garble of cgi nonsense and nonsensical chose one crap. The problem is, from an enjoyment aspect, you have a first act that is meaningless, a 2nd act that has the inklings of an actual movie, and a third act that does absolutely nothing but crash the train cars together. Some people that's fine, mindless action movies are enjoyable for most people, but not me.
Velorath
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Reply #76 on: December 11, 2021, 11:33:36 PM

Can't even respond to that post. Reading it just wants to make me go over it with a red pen.
schild
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Reply #77 on: December 11, 2021, 11:41:12 PM

A good kung fu movie has a plot that ties the action together. Hell any good action movie has a reason for any of the conflict to actually happen. Otherwise why doesn't everyone fawn over Michael Bay movies?

The problem is that the narrative and tone is all over the place. The Mandarin, who oscillates between being a ruthless mob boss , loving dad, and a GI-Joe villain, stages much of the conflict around the resurrection/retrieval of his dead wife. He opens the moving by sending thugs after his son, a guy who he admits he may need to bring back his wife. A guy you just forced out of cozy situation at gunpoint. Way to go. Then he decides to double down and almost kill his daughter, who he also requests assistance from and actually would have helped you...if you actually talked to her before you sent men to kill her... ok...so your their Dad, your family estranged but they don't hate you... so why not just meet them in person?? Why not fly to sons apartment and wait to *gasp* have a conversation with him?

So essentially any fight scenes before they meet The Mandarin serve zero narrative purpose. Just there because the movie needed action scenes, which is a thing that usually happens in bad movies.

Compare this to like Black Widow where there is arguably one unnecessary fight scene between Natasha and Yelena, which is forgivable since the movie only does that once and it doesn't contradict the plot too much those characters differing views on their relationship. Fuck even Captain Marvel didn't have some nonsense where Nick Fury fights Carol Danvers because the movie had too many talking scenes and not enough punchy ones.

But all this wouldn't be a problem, the actions scenes were cool in insolation, if it wasn't for the third act being a garble of cgi nonsense and nonsensical chose one crap. The problem is, from an enjoyment aspect, you have a first act that is meaningless, a 2nd act that has the inklings of an actual movie, and a third act that does absolutely nothing but crash the train cars together. Some people that's fine, mindless action movies are enjoyable for most people, but not me.

psycho
Samwise
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Reply #78 on: December 12, 2021, 01:20:12 AM

Can't even respond to that post. Reading it just wants to make me go over it with a red pen.

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Reply #79 on: December 12, 2021, 06:43:55 AM

MCU sequels have a history of being better than originals? What about iron man, thor, captain America, spider-man, ant man, avengers?

There are few where the sequel is about as good, GotG comes to mind. But I can't think of any where the sequel is markedly better.

I'm not saying the sequels are bad (except thor), but just can't think of examples that are better.

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Reply #80 on: December 12, 2021, 10:22:08 AM

This franchise quietly dies by movie 2. Just using this as a time stamped i told you so.
Velorath
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Reply #81 on: December 12, 2021, 10:27:27 AM

MCU sequels have a history of being better than originals? What about iron man, thor, captain America, spider-man, ant man, avengers?

There are few where the sequel is about as good, GotG comes to mind. But I can't think of any where the sequel is markedly better.

I'm not saying the sequels are bad (except thor), but just can't think of examples that are better.

I would amend that to say that it's more that the characters themselves often get better written after their debut movies. Dr. Strange is probably one of the best examples. A little bland in his own movie and then vastly better written in Infinity War. The first Cap movie was good, but I don't think it was until Winter Soldier that he really became the Cap we know through the rest of the Infinity Saga. Thor obviously took a few movies to get right. Hulk of course had to deal with an actor change, but Avengers ended up really establishing the character after a shaky debut movie. Even someone like Hawkeye eventually finds his niche.

I think the general point is that Shang Chi himself will likely be improved as a character over time.
eldaec
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Reply #82 on: December 12, 2021, 10:36:59 AM

Yeah, that's fair.

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Reply #83 on: December 12, 2021, 01:02:24 PM

Winter Soldier was VASTLY superior to the first Captain America movie, Thor: Ragnarok was better than either of its prequels, and both Spider-Man movies are about on par. I actually rate Avengers: Age of Ultron on par with the first Avengers movie - it's got some points that are weaker, some that are stronger.

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Reply #84 on: December 12, 2021, 07:20:36 PM

In fairness many many people are wrong about winter soldier being better than first Avenger I guess.

I think winter soldier might have been the last one we saw in a theatre. It was the one where the template became so blindingly clear that it actually started to get in the way of suspension of disbelief.

But I do agree with the point about the character getting better even as his films got worse.

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Khaldun
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Reply #85 on: December 12, 2021, 09:07:00 PM

Part of the issue is that some of these characters have huge "core templates" that help give directors and screenwriters some good ideas about making them better if they're a bit off-brand or dull. Some don't. Shang-Chi really doesn't: he's got a forgettable body of back-stories where some of it has to be thrown overboard because they were ripping off Sax Roemer as if his (racist) stuff was public domain as if it wasn't, and otherwise were just trying to cash in on Bruce Lee etc.

If you look at Shang-Chi after they started to slough off the "I must stop my insane father", he's mostly a side character and in everything he's still a pretty stereotypical "wise Asian" (the contrast to Danny Rand's Iron Fist is often striking) who speaks rarely and knows what to do.

So in that sense, they did a lot to clean up the character and make him viable for contemporary storytelling, but they're not going to have much to draw upon otherwise, unlike most of the other Marvel characters they're using. So if they're smart in Shang-Chi 2 they'll look for someone who is the martial arts equivalent of James Gunn--who really upsets the applecart and does something completely unexpected aesthetically and otherwise but that strongly invokes Hong Kong cinema's history.
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Reply #86 on: December 13, 2021, 12:10:51 AM

Conversely, being a bit of a blank slate maybe offers a little more freedom to find a fresh angle with the character. I mean, there's over a century of film history of people creating compelling characters without using Marvel comics as guide rails so it could probably be done.
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Reply #87 on: December 13, 2021, 03:06:24 AM

The blank slate didn't stop the other characters in the film being written well enough.

The writers just didn't do great.

Maybe they were just willing to stick their necks out further with not-main characters.

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Khaldun
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Reply #88 on: December 13, 2021, 07:53:33 AM

I really don't see the issues that some of you see. The only thing about Shang-Chi himself that I think is a valid complaint is just the actor plays him in a rather bland way; the script creates some room to make him feel a bit edgier. Fundamentally he comes off like a nice guy who is not haunted by his past as much as he might be. With his father gone, he's lost a significant amount of his motivating drive, so that's really what the second film is going to need to do--build up his character and give him a strong drive of some kind.
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Reply #89 on: December 13, 2021, 08:54:06 AM

Personally I thought he was ok. In a universe full of quippy heroes it can maybe be a bit hard to make the more serious ones stand out, Cap aside. You got characters like Iron Man, the Guardians, Spidey, Ant-man, etc... that started off funny, and then a big part of the solution to making Thor, Hulk, and Dr. Strange better was to make them more humorous also. It's not too surprising that Shang Chi himself is going to get overshadowed a bit when he's partnered up with Awkwafina and Trevor.
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Reply #90 on: December 13, 2021, 09:31:09 AM

Moon Knight and Daredevil are going to up the number of more serious characters, though the Marvel formula will doubtless demand making them a bit lighter than they might otherwise be played. It's hard to imagine any version of Moon Knight who is light and quippy; Charlie Cox's Daredevil could get some comic relief from a recast Foggy Nelson and from playing the straight man to She-Hulk, maybe, but he's still going to be fairly grim. Right now the only character who doesn't really get to be funny 95% of the time is the Winter Soldier.

Shang-Chi in the comics isn't serious in that way--he's just one of those very serene, controlled, wisdom-of-the-Orient types (kind of blatantly riffing off the protagonist of the Kung Fu TV series in the US). I don't think that's going to work as an ongoing persona so they really will need to give him some distinguishing personality.
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Reply #91 on: December 13, 2021, 09:34:40 AM

Leung is one of the best baddies in MCU one-off history.
Fair enough.

Not enough to overcome all the issues, but when at its core you have a movie about The Master of Kung Fu and you cast a himbo who can't act and doesn't know kung fu... Are there literally no good options in kung fu cinema anymore? It could've been a golden opportunity to actually include the kung fu theater community in this. If somehow they did and still ended up with this steamer, my apologies. But it seems weird in this fad of inclusivity and representation to not use people who, you know, do this thing already.

Almost any kung fu flick that pops up on tv is better than this movie. I miss whatever channel was doing regular kung fu cinema.
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Reply #92 on: December 13, 2021, 12:32:26 PM

Moon Knight and Daredevil are going to up the number of more serious characters

I thought Moon Knight was basically Deadpool Batman

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Reply #93 on: December 13, 2021, 02:23:18 PM

No, he's Weird Psychotic Batman/Shadow, but not particularly funny. Warren Ellis did a take on him a while back that upped the weirdness even more but that was also kind of stylish.

The core is that he's a mercenary who gets betrayed by a partner and "dies" of his injuries while in an Egyptian tomb. He wakes, surprised to be alive, and he sees that he's been lying in the shadow of a statue of the Egyptian god Khonshu. He comes to believe that Khonshu raised him from the dead to serve as his avenging agent on Earth. Then he ends up adopting three separate civilian identities that he genuinely seems to inhabit as his "real self" whenever he's not Moon Knight, and his version of Alfred and his lover sort of indulge him while also thinking he's right at the edge of going nuts. Generally not played for laughs and sometimes is super grimdark, depending on which iteration.
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Reply #94 on: December 13, 2021, 03:19:29 PM

Ya, Moon Knight can be a serious study of Mental Illness, whereas Deadpool is "Nyuk Nyuk crazy people are annoying/funny!" The comparisons of "rich guy dresses up as a winged thing at night" to Batman are obvious, but Moon Knight takes that trope and moves it in a different direction.

Most people don't bother to look deeper and dismiss him out of hand as a Batman copy, however.

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Reply #95 on: December 14, 2021, 10:41:24 AM

All my comic book knowledge came from Marvel Heroes.

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Reply #96 on: December 14, 2021, 03:26:28 PM

At this point I think Moon Knight is more like Dr. Fate (basically a human given powers by a god of order, and they communicate with each other with the god occasionally inhabiting his body) than Batman.

Just realized Hack Snyder got that carving symbols into criminals bit from Moon Knight.

The following page is a bit misleading but it shows what I mean about MK being like Dr. Fate.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Moon-Knight-2006/Issue-13?id=7465#29
« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 03:46:56 PM by Raguel »
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