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Author Topic: Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time" Visible Spoilers Thread  (Read 78839 times)
Rendakor
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Reply #245 on: January 22, 2020, 06:57:22 AM

The way this casting has been going, I expect Jennifer Cheon Garcia to be playing Verin.

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Lucas
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Reply #246 on: January 23, 2020, 01:18:50 AM

Aaand one more, Peter Franzén (undisclosed role)



Hmm, I agree with Rendakor, he will probably play Lanfear.  Other, less likely choices: Ingtar, Child Byar, Gareth Byrne, Elyas Machera (with appropriate makeup).

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Draegan
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Reply #247 on: January 23, 2020, 05:40:11 AM

This is a pretty large cast for the beginning of the story. For this show to not be utter garbage you need to slowly build the show and expand to the giant unnecessary cast of characters Jordan put in there.

I thought the first book was pretty good. It's your typical first book of a hero's journey. Backwater start, a journey, explore the world and it's history through the eyes of an ignorant bumpkin. Expand the book's horizons as the main characters learn more.

By expanding it too quickly, you'll have a problem I think of confusing the audience.
Rendakor
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Reply #248 on: January 23, 2020, 06:10:27 AM

That's the route I thought they would take, but instead they're apparently making Moiraine the MC and introducing a million characters early on.

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Reply #249 on: January 24, 2020, 12:32:22 AM

Seems like a bad idea.  This is going to suck, is my guess.

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Draegan
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Reply #250 on: January 24, 2020, 05:27:25 AM

Yeah this is most definitely going to suck. Should be fun to watch burn.
Brolan
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Reply #251 on: January 24, 2020, 01:55:57 PM

They are going the GoT route and just dumping you into the world.  I agree it is a bad way to go.
Lucas
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Reply #252 on: January 25, 2020, 02:13:12 AM

You know, I would have been pretty confident if this was in the hands of HBO and some of their usual writers/showrunners. Here we have a case similar to the Witcher's one (first time as executive producer and main showrunner), but with a much, MUCH bigger cast at hand.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1988994/ (showrunner imdb profile)
--------

Also, there are rumors of the first season being just 8 episodes, and depending on the writing and how they want to structure the story, it might be a too low of a number.

I think some "groups" will only get a passing mention, like the Tinkers ("Tuatha'an") or even the Whitecloaks, no matter the fact they're quite important right from the beginning for the Perrin's storyline.

Still, they would need to get quite in-depth (they have to offer the audience a clear overview of these, at least) with:

1) Our merry fellowship that depart Emond's Field
2) The White Tower (even a bit of their internal dynamics, although not so much for S1)
3) The baddies (Dark One but the Forsaken as well, even if they're going to trickle them one by one).

With this in mind, it makes sense they already have a big cast, doesn't it? I think it will be more of HOW they're going to present them while spacing them so they don't create too much confusion.



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Draegan
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Reply #253 on: January 25, 2020, 07:39:11 AM

They are going the GoT route and just dumping you into the world.  I agree it is a bad way to go.

Especially since the majority of 2nd tier characters aren't very interesting at all. And depending on the book, some of the Tier 1 guys aren't either.

I'm looking at you Perrin/Faile stories.
Rendakor
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Reply #254 on: January 25, 2020, 09:23:05 AM

You know, I would have been pretty confident if this was in the hands of HBO and some of their usual writers/showrunners. Here we have a case similar to the Witcher's one (first time as executive producer and main showrunner), but with a much, MUCH bigger cast at hand.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1988994/ (showrunner imdb profile)
--------

Also, there are rumors of the first season being just 8 episodes, and depending on the writing and how they want to structure the story, it might be a too low of a number.

I think some "groups" will only get a passing mention, like the Tinkers ("Tuatha'an") or even the Whitecloaks, no matter the fact they're quite important right from the beginning for the Perrin's storyline.

Still, they would need to get quite in-depth (they have to offer the audience a clear overview of these, at least) with:

1) Our merry fellowship that depart Emond's Field
2) The White Tower (even a bit of their internal dynamics, although not so much for S1)
3) The baddies (Dark One but the Forsaken as well, even if they're going to trickle them one by one).

With this in mind, it makes sense they already have a big cast, doesn't it? I think it will be more of HOW they're going to present them while spacing them so they don't create too much confusion.
You really don't need to do the White Tower at all in S1. The only Aes Sedai that matters that early is Moiraine, and you can just have her giving bits of lore here and there about it. The decision to show Logain's gentling seems to be the worst one they've made, since it's going to add a whole bunch of characters for something that doesn't really matter much early.

They only encounter what, 3 forsaken in book 1? Ishamael in Rand's dreams, plus the two mooks who get killed at tEotW; Ishamael is important, but the latter two aren't so they can just be nobodies because they'll be in one scene then never heard from again. Beyond that you just need Padan Fain and some CGI monsters to cover the rest of the early villains.

Perrin and Egwene's sidestory en route to Caemlyn is the biggest character bloat; Elyas, the tinkers, the Whitecloaks, etc. The tinkers don't really matter for a long time, but the Elyas/wolves/Whitecloak dynamic is basically all of Perrin's character (aside from his awful wife) so cutting any of that leaves him rudderless.

I'd probably cut all of the Shienar stuff from book 1, too; I'd bring them out of The Ways outside Shienar and just show it in the distance with the CGI trollocs approaching. Rand can still save the day, and they can introduce the Shienarians in S2 when some of them start to matter.

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Draegan
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Reply #255 on: January 25, 2020, 01:11:37 PM

They would be smart to really keep the scope of the whole story hidden until season 2. You want to pull an audience in with a simple story about a kid getting caught up in saving the world. You need to tell the story of Random from Two Rivers and him "defeating the dark one" in season 1. Cut a few wandering split ups of characters, make it 10 episodes.

Then if the show is well done and popular? Then you start bringing in everything else.

You need to basically do what A New Hope did.
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Reply #256 on: January 27, 2020, 01:16:02 PM

Confirmed: Jennifer Garcia Cheon Warn will play Aes Sedai Leane Sharif, of the Blue Ajah (NSFW?):


I approve  DRILLING AND MANLINESS DRILLING AND MANLINESS

Speculation: she hasn't mentioned the most common "title" that goes along with Leane in the earlier books. Perhaps another confirmation that the show might cover  some of the material in the "New Spring" prequel novel.

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SurfD
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Reply #257 on: November 11, 2021, 04:55:53 AM

So, a trailer for this has dropped.  Currently unimpressed.

Also:        
https://gizmodo.com/adapting-the-wheel-of-time-for-tv-is-an-epic-all-its-ow-1848026456

YIKES.

Quote
io9: Speaking of, the show’s seemingly biggest change from the books is the revelation that a female character could be a potential Dragon Reborn, whereas in the books the Dragon is exclusively male.

Judkins: I think the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn’t necessarily need to only be a male character, that’s really important. We see that play out in a number of different ways through the season. Also, as we learn, some of the Dragons of the past were women. How was that different? How did that affect the world? So that one change that we’ve made, it really does flutter through the whole series. I think it’s good to make changes like that and to put them in the show, even if it does have those effects.
Like, what the everliving fuck.   This isn't a "small" change to the story.  This is literally changing a bedrock core element of the ENTIRE nature of the way the entire cosmology of his universe runs.   The dragon is male.  Period.  In every life, in every incarnation, in every turning of the wheel, the dragon is male.    The whole yin/yang male/female play and counterplay off eachother is 100% integral to the way the fabric of literally EVERYTHING in Wheel works.  If you throw that out, it pretty much alters the fundamental nature of the way everything works.   Gender is SUPER fucking important in the series right down to the literal way the fabric of the universe operates.  Throwing that out the window would be like tossing the force out of starwars and making Jedi and Sith psychic mutants or something.....

And then there's:
https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/wheel-of-time-new-worlds-every-few-episodes-1235108671/

Quote
Throughout the adaptation process, Judkins had the aid of the late author’s wife Harriet, as well as Brandon Sanderson, who wrote the final three books after Jordan’s passing. “Brandon is super honest, saying, ‘I don’t think this works, for this reason,’ and then I’m like ‘OK I have to pay serious attention to this,’” Judkins revealed. “And then there have been times to where I’m like, ‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it.”

The more I hear about this, the more I get the feeling that this is basically going to be "lets milk the NAME for all it's worth" and the result is going to be only loosely recognizable as the property it is based on.

Like, pissing off basically the ENTIRE fanbase of the books in some kind of misguided effort to attract a wider audience seems like a really fucking dumb idea, considering that the Fanbase is probably going to be the people driving most of the attention towards this product.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 05:07:12 AM by SurfD »

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slog
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Reply #258 on: November 11, 2021, 05:37:30 AM

That's a bummer.  Sometimes politics can ruin this kind of stuff.  At least it's not going to be as bad as World War Z
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 05:40:33 AM by slog »

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Draegan
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Reply #259 on: November 11, 2021, 05:58:58 AM

Yikes. This is the last series of books you want to try to shoehorn gender politics in to. They whole damn series is divided between male and female relationships even beyond the stuff SurfD brought up. Woman's Circles vs. Men's Circle in Emmonds Field. Male and Female relationships like Rand loving three woman and the three woman being ok with that.

I mean the Aiel?

This was a long shot to be good in the first place, but it will most assuredly fail. It'll be Star Wars Sequels all over again where the execs/showrunners piss all over the fan base and have it blow up in their faces.

It'll be interesting to see it all blow up in their faces.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 06:01:01 AM by Draegan »
Reg
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Reply #260 on: November 11, 2021, 06:03:02 AM

They should have gotten Sanderson to be the showrunner. There's a reason why he was chosen to finish the last 3 books.
slog
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Reply #261 on: November 11, 2021, 06:09:07 AM

Yikes. This is the last series of books you want to try to shoehorn gender politics in to. They whole damn series is divided between male and female relationships even beyond the stuff SurfD brought up. Woman's Circles vs. Men's Circle in Emmonds Field. Male and Female relationships like Rand loving three woman and the three woman being ok with that.

I mean the Aiel?

This was a long shot to be good in the first place, but it will most assuredly fail. It'll be Star Wars Sequels all over again where the execs/showrunners piss all over the fan base and have it blow up in their faces.

It'll be interesting to see it all blow up in their faces.



I can imagine the meetings they had with Amazon execs.  "This dragon reborn character.  They seem to be important.  Does it have to be a man?  Why can't it be a women.  We can cast Jennifer Lawrence in the role!"

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Khaldun
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Reply #262 on: November 11, 2021, 06:17:11 AM

You can do a better job of imagining and describing gender than Jordan did--I have no beef with showrunners who want to drop the braid-tugging and other more consequentially bad envisionings of women in the books. But yeah, you don't want to drop the fundamental idea that women and men have access to different power and that the Dragon Reborn is a problem for gendered reasons.

I can see some room in WoT for some forms of gender fluidity, mind you, and there are if I remember right some Aes Sedai who are lesbians, so there's room for that too--WoT doesn't require everybody to be conventionally heterosexual or to embody a single version of being a woman or a man. But it would be idiotic to say "the Dragon Reborn could be a woman, has been a woman"--that just makes that character a conventional "prophesied hero" and pretty much blasts the entire underlying idea of the universe Jordan built out the showrunners' ass.

What I wouldn't mind seeing redone, frankly, is the Dark One. The Forsaken are actually vivid antagonists: they've got personalities, they've got hang-ups and obsessions of their own, they've got rivalries, they've got motivations. The Dark One is a fucking boring Morgoth/Satan clone who raises all the usual questions about why such a being exists, and who has no meaningful motivations. For once, I'd like the kinky, power-hungry, angry, weird servants of a Lord of All Evil to actually be able to explain why a universe ruled by the Lord of All Evil is a desirable outcome and have that Ultimate Bad Guy [tm] make some degree of coherent sense. Or if the Dark One really is just Generic Evil, make him a complete abstraction: an energy field, an essence, not a literal animate being with thoughts.
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Reply #263 on: November 11, 2021, 06:56:52 AM

What I wouldn't mind seeing redone, frankly, is the Dark One. The Forsaken are actually vivid antagonists: they've got personalities, they've got hang-ups and obsessions of their own, they've got rivalries, they've got motivations. The Dark One is a fucking boring Morgoth/Satan clone who raises all the usual questions about why such a being exists, and who has no meaningful motivations. For once, I'd like the kinky, power-hungry, angry, weird servants of a Lord of All Evil to actually be able to explain why a universe ruled by the Lord of All Evil is a desirable outcome and have that Ultimate Bad Guy [tm] make some degree of coherent sense. Or if the Dark One really is just Generic Evil, make him a complete abstraction: an energy field, an essence, not a literal animate being with thoughts.
To be fair, this is somewhat addressed in the books, as I recall.  If the Dark One wins, he remakes all of reality in his image.  That includes whatever reality his Chosen Ones want.  Several of them describe the world they want to create when he wins (Asmodean I remember off hand wanting a world of endless music or something, but I know there were others who also brought it up).  Ishamael just wanted to break all of reality so he'd stop being reborn because he's tired of this shit.  And the way they describe the use of the True Power and interactions with the Dark One, it really is actually just a (sentient) super powerful energy field.  But I'll agree it would have been nice to explore that more in terms of what you are saying, instead of just leaving it at Generic Evil because RJ blew up the narrative into tiny bits.

As for what was written above... lol.  I understand things need to be adapted between book and film (and that goes triple in Wheel of Times case), and older books maybe need some things whitewashed over that are no longer ok in current society.  But Jesus Christ, that ignores a fundamental part of the entire story.  If you can't handle a story who's entire lore, physics, and world is built on a hard line divide between genders, then either leave the project or cancel the project.  There is no 'adapting' that.

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Rendakor
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Reply #264 on: November 11, 2021, 07:32:55 AM

Yea, this is really stupid. Defined gender roles are very important within WoT, and the story even includes a few subversions of them already. Rewriting the Dragon as "sometimes female" is fucking awful, and makes me wonder if they're going to change it from being Rand. swamp poop

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Reply #265 on: November 11, 2021, 09:56:17 AM

One of the other trailers had me thinking that it could just as well be any one of them, no reason to think it should be Rand.

Seriously, this whole series could as well be called Wheel of Time: Boy Magic vs Girl Magic.  Like, the whole fucking thing is about how they both compete with and compliment each other.  Changing any of that is telling a different story.

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Reply #266 on: November 11, 2021, 04:46:11 PM

Seriously, this whole series could as well be called Wheel of Time: Boy Magic vs Girl Magic.  Like, the whole fucking thing is about how they both compete with and compliment each other.  Changing any of that is telling a different story.

This.

I didn't have high hopes for this in the first place, and the trailers haven't really made me think it'll be any better. I've been somewhat skeptical of the seeming shift to making the Aes Sedai the main vehicle for the story that the last trailer hinted at, but this is just an entirely different story. The whole goddamn story is rife with gender politics and the consequences of male magic and female magic, and what those different forms of magic do to the wielder. Those effects are why the Dragon being exclusively male is such an integral part of the story. Granted, its gender roles are EXTREMELY "old-fashioned" which one would expect from the author, but goddamn, it really is something the entire fucking story is built around.

You might as well have had Peter Jackson saying "These hobbits are actually giant-sized and they know kung-fu."

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Reply #267 on: November 11, 2021, 04:49:59 PM

They could really do this universe as "honestly a better more utopian world is possible; the only way to get there is to trust that Rand won't be corrupted, everything you don't like about our world as it stands is because the Dark Lord is still around, and Rand's your only bet for ending that status quo."

Rather than Gandalf laughing briefly over Frodo's bed and saying a great evil has departed the world but saying also in the most Catholic way sorry hobbits and humans you're fucked, evil will be back, not your problem but somebody in the future's problem.

It would be really radical if WoT was like "if you guys win, seriously, the world is forever a better place and kind of what the spirit that made it had in mind. If you lose it's crack whores and Donald Trump 24/7, sorry."
Draegan
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Reply #268 on: November 12, 2021, 05:14:41 AM

The story told through Morraine is probably a good way to do it. You get a little more exposition maybe and some additional detail. You also could probably limit a shit ton of side stories that don't make a difference.

Didn't some of the forsaken get born into different gender bodies? I feel like that happened but maybe the wielded the power from the true source or something.

I can't remember.
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Reply #269 on: November 12, 2021, 06:53:13 AM

If I remember it correctly, the Forsaken do gender-swap sometimes but they continue to channel their originally assigned side of the One Power.
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Reply #270 on: November 12, 2021, 06:59:12 AM

One of them was stuck in a woman's body but used the "male power". And it wasn't a "they just did what they wanted" kind of thing. It was described very much as a one-off gambit in the books and not by the choice of the one who was "reborn" that way.

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Reply #271 on: November 12, 2021, 07:31:00 AM

Even the best showrunner for this property would have to edit out an asston of the books--not just the bloated prose but also just the endless series of additional elements in the world-building. Even before I just gave up because of the bloat, I found it nearly impossible to keep track of all the characters, the different peoples and kingdoms and histories, and so on.

It's really got to stay tight on the initial group for a long time. If I were going to fiddle with the whole thing as a showrunner, I might keep them together for much, much longer than in the books. I might also just pare off three or four of the Forsaken.
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Reply #272 on: November 12, 2021, 07:35:09 AM

One of them was stuck in a woman's body but used the "male power". And it wasn't a "they just did what they wanted" kind of thing. It was described very much as a one-off gambit in the books and not by the choice of the one who was "reborn" that way.

Also helps that he was an elite servant of a dark lord that has some power over death and resurrection.  Messing with the Wheel is sort of his whole thing.
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Reply #273 on: November 12, 2021, 08:59:45 AM

It was literally just the case where it was revealed that when a Forsaken is killed (except with Balefire) the Dark One could bring them back because even death would not stop them from serving him.  One of them was jammed in a woman's body, and told that's all they had lying around and he shouldn't bitch about it or he'd be tortured for eternity instead.  None of the Forsaken had ever been killed up until before the books start, so this was a surprise to them all as well.  It was also an annoying surprise to the fans, as Robert Jordan found yet another way to keep from killing off any of his thousand characters, even ones he had actually killed off.

But it just reinforced the fact that 'souls' in this universe are hard gendered.  Even though that one guy was jammed in a woman's body, he could still only channel the male half of the one power (which he used to his advantage for infiltration).  Every version of 'the dragon' is the same male power wielding soul.  
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 09:59:22 AM by Teleku »

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Reply #274 on: November 12, 2021, 11:24:49 AM

I think it was the "except for balefire" part that I found hilarious. "The all-powerful spirit of evil in the universe can raise his servants from death UNLESS you've levelled up enough to use [cue the heavy metal theme] balefire!!!!"
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Reply #275 on: November 12, 2021, 11:47:43 AM

Balefire erases people from existence, and can even undo recent things they've done if you're strong enough. Rand used it to bring someone back who had just died, by balefiring the guy who killed them.

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Reply #276 on: November 12, 2021, 11:48:55 AM

Eh, I thought the concept was handled well.  It was basically a nuke.  They brought up how during the war of power, back in the age of legends, that weave was discovered and everybody went hog wild leveling everything.  However they quickly realized that using it too much (which burned peoples threads/souls out of the great weave, and with enough power, even undid things they had done previously) caused terrible temporal backlashes, and could eventually cause of all reality to collapse.  Which was why even in the worst war between dark and light, both sides just agreed they where not going to use that shit (I guess you could say this is sort of similar the the Nazi's and Allies both agreeing not to use chemical weapons against each other even though they both had developed devastating forms of it).  This continued on even with the Forsaken coming back thousands of years later, who instinctively didn't use such a dangerous weave.  Which our great child of light hero blatantly ignored as soon as he discovered it, much to the horror of the evil guys who freaked out that he dared use it.

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Reply #277 on: November 12, 2021, 12:28:48 PM

If I'm going to read the books again, do I start with New Spring?  It looks like a prequel

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Reply #278 on: November 12, 2021, 12:31:50 PM

This show has so many strikes against it well before you get into any of the gender politics stuff. It's an adaptation of an overlong fantasy series that meanders for several books being done by a company that rarely gets more than a couple seasons out of shows that likely cost way less to produce. They've already had to recast one of the main roles for season two, the trailers look just about SyFy channel quality, Rosamund Pike is the closest thing to a big name actor here (and if not for Gone Girl her biggest claim to fame would still be co-starring in worst James Bond movie), and trying to jump on the GoT bandwagon probably made a lot more sense before that series faceplanted on the dismount. "But the Dragon can't be female!" is the absolute least of the reasons this show is going to absolutely tank. This thing is doomed to join the dustbin with Legend of the Seeker, and The Shannara Chronicles.
slog
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Reply #279 on: November 12, 2021, 12:46:37 PM

This show has so many strikes against it well before you get into any of the gender politics stuff. It's an adaptation of an overlong fantasy series that meanders for several books being done by a company that rarely gets more than a couple seasons out of shows that likely cost way less to produce.

Nice list.  Gary Busey: Pet Judge probably deserved a second season.

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