Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time" Visible Spoilers Thread

[Rasix]

If I'm going to read the books again, do I start with New Spring?  It looks like a prequel

New Spring is fine whatever order you read it in. Its significance seems wholly derived from the books that came after it chronologically (in story, not publishing order).

This show will probably suck. The regendering of certain aspects is stupid and belies the fact that whoever's running this show is fucking clueless. If the Aiel aren't a bunch of gingers....

[SurfD]

If I remember it correctly, the Forsaken do gender-swap sometimes but they continue to channel their originally assigned side of the One Power.

That was basically the Dark One intentionally warping the pattern to basically punish the two individuals in question for their failure + as a tactical gambit because it was something that LITERALLY nobody would see coming, because the very idea of it being possible runs inherently counter to literally the fabric of their universe.

[SurfD]

Balefire erases people from existence, and can even undo recent things they've done if you're strong enough. Rand used it to bring someone back who had just died, by balefiring the guy who killed them.

It wasn't just "recent" things.  That was the problem.  It straight up burned their thread out of the "weave" of the fabric of reality, and the longer you targeted them, the farther back in time it burned them out.    Use too much of it on too many people at once, and you risk the fabric of reality unraveling.

[Rendakor]

If I'm going to read the books again, do I start with New Spring?  It looks like a prequel

It is a prequel. I never read it, because I don't particularly like Moiraine.

[Chimpy]

She is actually kinda just the character that everyone does stuff/has their character develop around in the book. It isn't that bad and is blessedly short. That being said, it is the only book in the entire series I have never re-read.

It gives some useful background on Lan and the past friendships alluded to between certain Aes Sedai in the main books.

[Teleku]

If I'm going to read the books again, do I start with New Spring?  It looks like a prequel

It's a prequel written well after fact of the main story.  I'd say you should read the first 3 books or so, then read New Spring.  I don't think it will hurt anything reading it first, but I feel this way is a better path.

This show has so many strikes against it well before you get into any of the gender politics stuff. It's an adaptation of an overlong fantasy series that meanders for several books being done by a company that rarely gets more than a couple seasons out of shows that likely cost way less to produce. They've already had to recast one of the main roles for season two, the trailers look just about SyFy channel quality, Rosamund Pike is the closest thing to a big name actor here (and if not for Gone Girl her biggest claim to fame would still be co-starring in worst James Bond movie), and trying to jump on the GoT bandwagon probably made a lot more sense before that series faceplanted on the dismount. "But the Dragon can't be female!" is the absolute least of the reasons this show is going to absolutely tank. This thing is doomed to join the dustbin with Legend of the Seeker, and The Shannara Chronicles.

I think we are probably all on the same page on low expectations here.  However, it's a major fantasy series that a lot of our generation (and apparently F13) read in our youths, being giving the GoT chance, so pretty much all of us can't help but watch.  Even if all the signs in the world point to failure.    Or in other words, you're going to have to live with the fact a big hunk of what's left of the F13 community is going to be talking about what happened on Wheel of Time for the next year or two, no matter how bad.  And god help you, if they actually do it right, for the next decade.

[Khaldun]

The Eye of the World is a genuinely good read, if in a recognizable genre way. That's part of the problem, it hooks you onto "and then what happened" and before you know it you're trying to keep track of a cast of thousands and unbelievably baroque world-building and a whole ton of braid-tugging.

[Draegan]

First two and a half books were decent. Then it went to shit.

[SurfD]

However, it's a major fantasy series that a lot of our generation (and apparently F13) read in our youths

I think it's probably safe to say that if you had any interest in "Fantasy" as a literary genre over the last 25 years, you have probably read at least one WoT book.   Maybe the first 3.

If you actually got "invested" in it, chances are you have read the first 4-6 books at least 4 or 5 times each over the years depending on when exactly you got into the series.

I mean, for me, I found it in my first year of highschool in the highschool library in the 90s, when the first 3 books were out.  Spent the next 10 years or so avidly waiting for the next book to publish, usually re-reading the entire series from start to finish half the time just to refresh myself if the gap between books was long enough.

[Khaldun]

I remember really quite loving it to The Dragon Reborn (Book 3) and thinking ok, this is still good until The Fires of Heaven (Book 5). At The Path of Daggers (Book 8) I was so irritated that I threw the book in the garbage, literally, and quit out.

[MahrinSkel]

I remember really quite loving it to The Dragon Reborn (Book 3) and thinking ok, this is still good until The Fires of Heaven (Book 5). At The Path of Daggers (Book 8) I was so irritated that I threw the book in the garbage, literally, and quit out.

Think that was where I noped out as well. I was already annoyed that after finally getting the Aes Sedai out of the way, he puts them right back in. When it turned out that Mazrim Taim was somehow not dead, I put it down and never went back. Jordan couldn't leave a plot thread tied.

--Dave

[Rendakor]

Path of Daggers is the one where I gave up as well. I finished it, but it felt like nothing happened the whole book so I was just done. I didn't go back to the series until Sanderson had finished it.

[Draegan]

That's essentially what I did.

[Cyrrex]

I powered through everything until the very last book.  Jordan's widow gave the middle finger to ebook pricing and wanted 45 bucks, so I gave the finger right back.  I still have no idea how it ends.  MAYBE I SHOULD RE-READ EVERYTHING.

[Rasix]

Path of Daggers is the one where I gave up as well. I finished it, but it felt like nothing happened the whole book so I was just done. I didn't go back to the series until Sanderson had finished it.

That one is what did it for me as well. The 70+ page prologue chapter, of absolutely nothing getting done, was the last straw. I don't remember exactly when I came back to it, but I'm glad it finally got back on track. The ending wasn't super shit either.

7-10 are a rough stretch and can probably be condensed down to a single season. They can also pair things waaaaay back. 90% of Perin's stuff doesn't need to make it to screen. Same with most of Matt's.

[Miguel]

I kind of hope they do something interested with The Ways....it was built up in the books as something that would play an important role in the mythology (I always thought it must be corrupted by the taint on Saidin, and would have recovered after Saidin was cleansed), but then it just disappeared from the books and was never mentioned again.

[Rendakor]

My theory back then was that the Ways were somehow connected to the Finns' realm, which also really didn't get developed much despite being a thing on the periphery of the whole series.

[Khaldun]

Mat, Perrin, and Egwene can all be shrunk to relatively minor characters. Nynaeve and Egwene could probably consolidated into a single character, actually--four friends (Egwene/Nynaeve, Perrin, Mat, Rand). Consolidate their potential romantic links. Simplify Perrin's werewolf whatever it is. Make Mat some kind of "I am a warrior". Nynaeve/Egwene are our entry point to the Aes Sedai and the way we understand the internal politics so Moiraine and Lan retain their mystery/distance.

Thom in the first book is important as a viewpoint character that makes us mistrust or worry about the Aes Sedai's hidden agenda. Keep him.

Dump 90% of the other characters. Keep the Forsaken: they're kinky, they have personal agendas, they've got personalities.

[Draegan]

I don't think you can combine Nynaeve and Egwene, or any of the original Two Rivers characters.

[Johny Cee]

Mat, Perrin, and Egwene can all be shrunk to relatively minor characters. Nynaeve and Egwene could probably consolidated into a single character, actually--four friends (Egwene/Nynaeve, Perrin, Mat, Rand). Consolidate their potential romantic links. Simplify Perrin's werewolf whatever it is. Make Mat some kind of "I am a warrior". Nynaeve/Egwene are our entry point to the Aes Sedai and the way we understand the internal politics so Moiraine and Lan retain their mystery/distance.

Thom in the first book is important as a viewpoint character that makes us mistrust or worry about the Aes Sedai's hidden agenda. Keep him.

Dump 90% of the other characters. Keep the Forsaken: they're kinky, they have personal agendas, they've got personalities.

Been ages since I read WOT, but:

- Rand is angsty and not fun for a good portion of series.  He is slowly going insane, and also keeps stepping up to the line of doing actual morally horrific stuff.  You need to have a break from him and leaven the show.  Mat gives you humor and Perrin gives you heart. 
- Nynaeve offsets Rand as being this super powerful source wielder who also isn't at all interested in him romantically and isn't afraid to voice her opinion.  If you roll together her and Egwene your sole female main character remaining from the books is also the romantic lead for the main male character (because they are going to cut down whatever the three women/Rand stuff, I'd imagine...  even if society doesn't mind a weird poly relationship, there is no way they do a messianic guy with three wives and not accidentally back into some really awful sexism).
- Moiraine has to die.  I mean, they could keep her around...  but some of the best parts of the books is Jordan killing her off and the characters dealing with everything that comes after.  If you don't kill her, you have to jettison and rewrite huge sections of the book to account for the wise teacher archetype still being there.  Rosamund Pike probably doesn't want to stick around either.... she has a full plate. 

[Khaldun]

Moiraine doesn't die in the books, though?

[Johny Cee]

Moiraine doesn't die in the books, though?

I mean, she comic book "dies" by jumping through the portal in book 5 or something but it is kind of hinted that she might still be alive/come back and I quit the series before I found out the resolution.  She is out of the books between 5 and (just checked) book 13, the second to last book?  This kickstarts a bunch of the character growth and whatnot from the other characters as Moiraine isn't there being mysterious and seeming to have a plan.

[Draegan]

You can have morraine come back sooner by just deleting 3-4 books and shorten that gap.

Pretty sure you can delete Perrin's Whitecloak storyline among many others.

[Johny Cee]

You can have morraine come back sooner by just deleting 3-4 books and shorten that gap.

Pretty sure you can delete Perrin's Whitecloak storyline among many others.

There's a bunch of dud storylines in there for sure...  alot of non-storylines too.  Too many POVs stuck in too many disparate locations, you had to have some characters in a holding pattern until they meet up again...  the great two or three book chase for Perrin's wife killed most of my interest in the series, and then Jordon wrote the prequel and I was out.  I respect the fact that he bit the bullet and wrote the books needed to get everyone back together and prepped for the series end, but they were not interesting reading.

I think narratively you need to sideline Moirraine for a while for the story to work. 

[Khaldun]

Yeah, true enough. You get a bit of that with them getting split up in the middle of Eye of the World, but if they're going to go more than a season or so, they'll have to take her out of the action for good or for a while in order to get the characters making decisions.

I'm just kind of realizing now that I have to remember the books that there wasn't any character that I actually really, really liked in the books. Moiraine and Lan seemed kind of cool if rather familiar, I guess. Thom was ok.

[Samwise]

But it just reinforced the fact that 'souls' in this universe are hard gendered.  Even though that one guy was jammed in a woman's body, he could still only channel the male half of the one power (which he used to his advantage for infiltration).  Every version of 'the dragon' is the same male power wielding soul.  

So what's the problem with a male-gendered soul born into a female-sexed body?  (I haven't read any of the books and am trying to understand the freakout.)

[SurfD]

But it just reinforced the fact that 'souls' in this universe are hard gendered.  Even though that one guy was jammed in a woman's body, he could still only channel the male half of the one power (which he used to his advantage for infiltration).  Every version of 'the dragon' is the same male power wielding soul.  

So what's the problem with a male-gendered soul born into a female-sexed body?  (I haven't read any of the books and am trying to understand the freakout.)

Because this does not happen "naturally".  Period.

The entire background cosmology of Wheel is built around a very firm eastern-ish style Yin/Yang mythology of Male Vs Female balance/counterbalance/conflict/harmony attached to a repeating millennia long cyclical battle between good and evil.   If your soul distinguishes itself during a cycle, you may end up "fixed" to the cycle: Destined to be reborn again and again as the cycle repeats.  But you are ALWAYS reborn as some similar yet slightly different version of the original you.    King Arthur would always be reborn as some young nobody who rises to power to eventually become a king or lord for example.   If you are male, you are ALWAYS reborn male.  Arthur would ALWAYS be reborn as some version of the "legend of the boy who found the magic sword and rose to rule/lead".  It's just the way it is.   In the books, there is a Female Archer who is famous because her legend is ALWAYS about her being a FEMALE archer with specific character traits that re-appears through legends.    

It's also important because of the way "magic" works:  Men and Women tap into different sides of the cosmic power of the universe.  They inherently can not cross that divide.  So when the Dragon in a previous cycle ended up getting the Male power source fucked up as a result of his final battle with the Dark One, the only person capable of fixing that problem is another Male power user:  In this case, because that's how legends work: The Dragon Reborn, his reincarnation in the next iteration of the cycle.   If the Dragon was actually reborn female, he literally would not be able to do what he is required to do to set things right.

[Johny Cee]

But it just reinforced the fact that 'souls' in this universe are hard gendered.  Even though that one guy was jammed in a woman's body, he could still only channel the male half of the one power (which he used to his advantage for infiltration).  Every version of 'the dragon' is the same male power wielding soul.  

So what's the problem with a male-gendered soul born into a female-sexed body?  (I haven't read any of the books and am trying to understand the freakout.)

One of the major themes of the series is gender.  Men and women have different sources of power in what is basically yin and yang, but the male side is poisoned by the Dark One.  Magic now drives men insane.  So in a fantasy world where history is a circle, and you have this gender setup, what does that do to your society?  Jordan tried to dive hard into this kind of thing.  I mean, not always successfully and some of his stuff is dated, but its one of the major themes of the series.

"The Dragon" is a guy who keeps reincarnating...  literally down to sometimes hearing prior incarnations/sharing memories.  In the prologue, the last incarnation of the dude has gone mad (poisoned source of male magic) and basically caused societal collapse.  Now this series, we hear that the Dragon is reincarnated.  The women with magic are rounding up men with magic.  Nations are restless. The Dark One starts kicking minions into action.  Etc.


So in a series that very much deals with sex, gender, and masculinity/femininity and what that poisoned source of male magic is doing to society, and what a society scared of male magic is to doing to men, and the bad guy is waiting for everything to fall apart to rewrite reality....  to suddenly go "well, listen up!  The Dragon can be a woman because sure!"   In a visual medium, we would just have a stereotypically Hollywood attractive actress as the main character supposedly dealing with something-something gender but from the masculine side?  Blah.

It would potentially work in a written medium.  You could try it with a trans man, but the narrative would overwhelmingly be about transness when there is potential for commentary on masculinity, gender roles, etc.

[Samwise]

Okay, but Teleku just said that there was a case where a guy got put in a woman's body and he was still able to do dude-magic.  So clearly you don't need a dick to do dude-magic, just a male soul.  Right?

Or is the idea that when you get reincarnated you're always a perfect genetic clone of your previous incarnations, like the emperor in the Foundation series?

[Rasix]

That wasn’t really a reincarnation. It was essentially Satan forcing a soul of his dead lackey into an existing person. More of a body snatch. A Dragon is reincarnated at birth.

[Samwise]

Right, but it establishes that the rules of magic don't care about your physical bits, is all I'm getting at.  If there's no rule that says your gender needs to match your sex in any particular way, and there's no rule that says that reincarnations need to be genetically/physically identical across lifetimes, then the existence of transgender people (which is the easiest explanation for why the Dragon Dude would be cast as a woman or whatever is going on) doesn't conflict with anything anyone is talking about in terms of the cosmology.

[Rendakor]

It's kind of worse, implying that the only way transgender people can exist is by the direct intervention of the Dark One.

[MahrinSkel]

Okay, but Teleku just said that there was a case where a guy got put in a woman's body and he was still able to do dude-magic.  So clearly you don't need a dick to do dude-magic, just a male soul.  Right?

Or is the idea that when you get reincarnated you're always a perfect genetic clone of your previous incarnations, like the emperor in the Foundation series?

The point is that there's a built in metaphor for "toxic masculinity", and they're going straight for pansexual genderfluid Wokeness.

--Dave

[Rasix]

Right, but it establishes that the rules of magic don't care about your physical bits, is all I'm getting at.  If there's no rule that says your gender needs to match your sex in any particular way, and there's no rule that says that reincarnations need to be genetically/physically identical across lifetimes, then the existence of transgender people (which is the easiest explanation for why the Dragon Dude would be cast as a woman or whatever is going on) doesn't conflict with anything anyone is talking about in terms of the cosmology.

The One Power tends to bend to the will of the plot. There's a number of areas that the Mormon writers didn't consider.

What about intersexed people? Dunno. Gender identity? Don't know. The Dark One did some shit, doesn't mean it works that way elsewhere.   It's interesting, I don't see why it couldn't have been the case in the past or in the future given that it's fantasy lit.

For this one though, could it just stick to the book? Pretty please.

[SurfD]

Right, but it establishes that the rules of magic don't care about your physical bits, is all I'm getting at.  If there's no rule that says your gender needs to match your sex in any particular way, and there's no rule that says that reincarnations need to be genetically/physically identical across lifetimes, then the existence of transgender people (which is the easiest explanation for why the Dragon Dude would be cast as a woman or whatever is going on) doesn't conflict with anything anyone is talking about in terms of the cosmology.

The way the cosmology is presented, Transgender people basically wouldn't exist "naturally" in his world is what it somewhat comes down to.   If your soul is male, the natural order of things would ALWAYS have you reborn as male. You would basically never get a case of a "female" soul being born in a male body.  It's never explicitly stated as a "rule" in the series, but it is a pretty fundamental part of the way his universe is constructed.   Like, the very possibility of "male" channelers existing in female bodies or vice versa (not simply altering their appearance to LOOK female, but actually BEING female) would be utterly impossible for a person inside the world to imagine.  It just wouldn't happen.   Which is why it worked so well when the Dark One did it.

Homosexual relationships were something the series had no real issue with that I could tell, but modern Transgender stuff was never touched on.