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Author Topic: Baldur's Gate 3  (Read 56136 times)
Polysorbate80
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Reply #105 on: October 22, 2020, 09:46:42 AM

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« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 03:30:34 AM by Polysorbate80 »

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
Khaldun
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Reply #106 on: October 22, 2020, 05:25:02 PM

So I found another thing that they need to think about. They allow you to knock out NPCs rather than kill them but they are 100 percent not ready for what happens if you do that. I found one encounter where it's completely plausible that you would want to knock someone out rather than kill them due to a complicated misunderstanding but even when you've made everything completely right, that NPC is still aggro much much later and it aggroes the entire camp of NPCs.

There are a lot of EA rough edges. Considering how much polish there is otherwise--the voice acting is genuinely good to great, the cutscenes are good, the characters are interesting--they aren't going to be able to dawdle on this for years, I think. This had better be one case of EA being about getting the cash to finish well fast rather than to finish in dribs and drabs.
Khaldun
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Reply #107 on: October 23, 2020, 10:24:04 AM

And yeah on too many low-level mobs having a big supply of really damaging attacks. Getting really sick of goblins who can throw endless alchemist fires at you, or goblins who have a bunch of spells or trash enemies who are fully stocked with poison and acid. Also I wish they'd clarify when you can kill mobs and not alert the whole base and when you can't. I killed the goblin torturer and his pal without a problem, killed the S&M priest without a problem, then killed all the goblins in the worg kennels to free the druid without a problem. Then when I snuck up on the drow priestess and broke the war drum first and whacked the three guys there, every mob in the place was aggro to me, though they didn't come running (that's another interesting and sometimes confounding thing--when mobs know where you are and what clusters they come in.) But I really hate when something that is this tactically built doesn't have a consistent set of rules about something like "the whole base is on alert" vs. "you killed two enemies and hid their corpses from patrols, no problem".
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 10:49:05 AM by Khaldun »
Cyrrex
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Reply #108 on: October 23, 2020, 11:20:20 AM

And yeah on too many low-level mobs having a big supply of really damaging attacks. Getting really sick of goblins who can throw endless alchemist fires at you, or goblins who have a bunch of spells or trash enemies who are fully stocked with poison and acid. Also I wish they'd clarify when you can kill mobs and not alert the whole base and when you can't. I killed the goblin torturer and his pal without a problem, killed the S&M priest without a problem, then killed all the goblins in the worg kennels to free the druid without a problem. Then when I snuck up on the drow priestess and broke the war drum first and whacked the three guys there, every mob in the place was aggro to me, though they didn't come running (that's another interesting and sometimes confounding thing--when mobs know where you are and what clusters they come in.) But I really hate when something that is this tactically built doesn't have a consistent set of rules about something like "the whole base is on alert" vs. "you killed two enemies and hid their corpses from patrols, no problem".

I did a bunch of reloads in that same place (sometimes technical issues, sometimes because I did something retarded early in the fight or whatever).  Sometimes is played out like you suggest.  Other times I was able to control the aggro.  Not sure always what I did differently, but my conclusion coming away from it was 'this could easily be the way a DM might let it play out'.  I don't want it to follow video game norms.  And why shouldn't level 3 goblins have tons of shit?  You can have tons of shit.  This is how it is supposed to work.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Khaldun
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Reply #109 on: October 23, 2020, 12:54:29 PM

Well, it does explain why the people back at the grove are freaking out. I tend to fall into an expectation that goblins are kind of cannon fodder, one step above kobolds, as opposed to throwing alchemical fire and casting spells cunningly and all that. But sure, no reason why not except that if the AI has pretty much every enemy behaving more or less the same with the same sets of powers/capabilities as the PCs, it is somewhat monotonizing. Kind of like when an MMO so overdoes class balancing that every class does exactly the same damage over time to all the same targets, etc.
Polysorbate80
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Reply #110 on: October 23, 2020, 12:59:09 PM

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« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 03:23:56 AM by Polysorbate80 »

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
Khaldun
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Reply #111 on: October 23, 2020, 02:30:09 PM

Yeah, that was as they say immersion-breaking. They really need a camp-in-the-dungeon mechanism.

And it is certainly very Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 to be smacking the shit out of some group of disposable trash only to have one spellcaster in the back suddenly fuck the whole party up, or to decide to uncover the whole map in one grid and suddenly get totally pwned by something.

Been interesting to see the probable companions around the map--both tieflings, if the one on the bridge near the gith is as well as the one down the river. I almost thought the goblin in the cage in the druid area might be too. I wonder if the "evil" nature of most of the characters is an attempt to fulfill the new announcement that they're not doing "evil races" per se any longer--to show that even "evil" can be rounded and complicated and have a character arc. So far I haven't really felt that the dialog options for you yourself go much beyond the Bioware:

1--"How can I selflessly help you?"
2--"I have a mission, but if I can, I'll help out."
3--"Give me some money and maybe I'll help."
4--"Feel that warm wetness on your leg? That's me pissing on the very thought of helping you in any way."

Also interesting to find the places where you can explore onto another map that aren't enabled yet where that happens *before* you complete the plot arc of this material and advance the questline.
Polysorbate80
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Reply #112 on: October 23, 2020, 02:37:55 PM

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« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 03:24:10 AM by Polysorbate80 »

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
Khaldun
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Reply #113 on: October 23, 2020, 03:13:04 PM

I'm the rogue. Which is great so I don't have to take Astarion out.

I kinda wish they'd do what Pathfinder Kingmaker did, which on skill checks is find the party member with the strongest check on it. But I get on dialogue checks why it's always you, I suppose. Leads to a LOT of savescumming, though, considering how dire failure on some checks can be.
jgsugden
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Reply #114 on: October 23, 2020, 03:23:20 PM

I'm running without a rogue.  I have a Warlock with a 16 Dex and 16 Chr (starting) as my build PC, and he has the criminal background.  I don't miss having Astarion around at all.  I'm running Fighter, Cleric, Wizard and my Warlock as the face. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Ceryse
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Reply #115 on: October 23, 2020, 03:45:49 PM

Supposedly the other companions (based on data-mining);

Minsc (yes, apparently bringing him back)
Karlach (the wounded tiefling you meet by the bridge)
Helia (thought to be a dwarven/gnomish werewolf? and a druid)

For a total of 8 companions. There's also a couple 'camp followers', like the skeleton resurrection guy; a drow, Volo, someone referred to as 'den leader', Sylvira, Daisy.

Personally, the number and type of companions are.. lacking, imo. There's a lot I like about BG3, but I also have a lot of issues with it (most are minor, some are not). Things like enemies having infinite spells/special arrows/flasks/etc is troubling. The changes to a number of the spells are making the game very DOS-like in terms of surface affects (which are way too numerous in those games, along with an abundance of conveniently placed explodables and such -- which are fewer so far in BG3, but still number way too many; hell, you can eliminate the entire big goblin siege with a single exploding flask because they bring exploding barrels with them and stand right beside them). The camera is shit (just as it was in DOS, but made worse with the terrain issues). Party control is also shit and jumping is a disaster, imo. Shove is one of the most OP things there is, and so on.

My biggest issue is, well, it doesn't 'feel' like D&D to me, really. More like a mod of DOS 2 the sorta exists in the Forgotten Realms, but without the atmosphere of the actual setting.

Likely the EA will last 12 months or so, based on Larian's history, so maybe things will get tweaked enough to solve some of my biggest issues (and mods the more minor ones). I do not have much hope, however, for it to feel like any kind of D&D game to me. I'm also not a huge fan of Larian's writing, so.. most likely this game is going to be a miss for me (unfortunate, but hell, they can't please everyone).
Khaldun
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Reply #116 on: October 23, 2020, 04:36:17 PM

I'm kind of ok with the writing so far. Kinda. I knocked the bugbear boss in the goblin camp into an apparently bottomless abyss with the druid's knockback, which felt sort of dumb and sort of great at once.

It's a funny mix of great touches, good stuff, bad ideas and might-get-better-I dunno.
jgsugden
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Reply #117 on: October 23, 2020, 04:56:27 PM

I'd say at this point it is a pretty fair representation of D&D with a bad DM that doesn't read anything under the headers in the rulebook.  I'm a little disappointed here and there, and the storyline as a whole is a bit groanworthy, but I will not regret dropping the cost of the game and plan to play it through.

I'm still hoping they implement everything so that I can drop my favorite recent PCs into the game, but I expect some of the options we want won't come until an expansion at the earliest.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Cyrrex
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Reply #118 on: October 24, 2020, 12:56:13 AM

I'm the rogue. Which is great so I don't have to take Astarion out.

I kinda wish they'd do what Pathfinder Kingmaker did, which on skill checks is find the party member with the strongest check on it. But I get on dialogue checks why it's always you, I suppose. Leads to a LOT of savescumming, though, considering how dire failure on some checks can be.


I enjoy the checks and always (so far) accept the consequences, but it appears that it only does straight rolls.  Like it doesn’t add the modifier.  I sorta wondered if this was because it was evening things out because it is the Face character always making the roles, and not other party members who might have better stats for a particular roll.  In any case, I wish they would figure that out.  Make the person doing the dialog apply his or her stats to the roll, period.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Polysorbate80
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Reply #119 on: October 24, 2020, 07:33:36 AM

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« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 03:23:40 AM by Polysorbate80 »

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
jgsugden
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Reply #120 on: October 24, 2020, 07:44:38 AM

I think it lowers the target DC by your modifier rather than adding them to your roll, which is why I keep getting odd DC targets like 6 (10-2 proficiency-2 stat mod)…
That is correct.  The modifiers are applied and it leaves you with just the roll you need to make.  So, if you save, do a social encounter with a high charisma PC proficient in persuasion, and then reload and do it with a character not proficient in persuasion with a low charisma, the DC required may shift by 6 or 7.

They covered it in a video - kind of annoying to not have the transparency.  I wish they'd put a popup in the lower right showing the calculations, especially so that we can see the advantage and disadvantage rolls when applied.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Cyrrex
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Reply #121 on: October 24, 2020, 10:25:56 AM

Ah, cool.  Although why on earth you guys would reload on a fail is beyond me.  Doing it wrong, IMO.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Khaldun
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Reply #122 on: October 24, 2020, 11:06:37 AM

Part of it is that I want to see, by way of evaluating the writing and game design, how dramatic the branch points are for some of the choices. I was curious, for example, about whether you could even get through the gith encounter without fighting (you can but it's hard and interestingly enough Lae'zel isn't happy about it--she'd rather throw down with other gith than have you order her around). Normally you might save that for a second playthrough, etc., but that's not for EA, in my view.

I got down to the Underdark map and decided I'm not really interested in trying to figure out how to beat the first mobs you run into, who are pretty hard for a party of four level 4 characters. So stopping for now; I may wait until they're close to launch to try again.
Goumindong
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Reply #123 on: October 24, 2020, 12:52:08 PM

IF you're interested in 5e games. Solasta just went early access. Its a more linear tactical game and has been pretty good for me. (It has some quirks i don't like but still runs pretty well). Might be worth keeping an eye out of BG 3 doesn't end up working for you.
Khaldun
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Reply #124 on: October 24, 2020, 04:22:11 PM

Lots of people comparing it in the discussions on Steam, sometimes angrily (I can't always tell what they're angry at).

The RNG in BG3 so far really does seem off, just to cite another major Steam discussion. I understand all the pompous shit people say about probability when you question a probability model, but it really does feel like my guys are missing attacks that show 75% or better a lot.
jgsugden
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Reply #125 on: October 24, 2020, 05:52:59 PM

Ah, cool.  Although why on earth you guys would reload on a fail is beyond me.  Doing it wrong, IMO.
I'm looking at this as a playtest, so trying to see the breadth of the content is part of the 'job'.  I tend to save it, run through something, save a new save file, load up the first save file, play around then go back to the save file I made after my first attempt.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
jgsugden
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Reply #126 on: October 24, 2020, 05:56:18 PM

...
The RNG in BG3 so far really does seem off, just to cite another major Steam discussion. I understand all the pompous shit people say about probability when you question a probability model, but it really does feel like my guys are missing attacks that show 75% or better a lot.

I have either been decidedly unlucky, or the probabilities shown are not reflecting accurate chances.  I logged percentage chance on saves/attacks for 100 and saw an average percentage of 71% and effective percentage of 48%.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
jgsugden
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Reply #127 on: October 25, 2020, 08:39:04 AM

Anyone have a problem where Lae'zel walks up to attack someone and gets attacked instead?  Not sure why it happens, but it happens every few combats.  I just assumed it was bad movement and an OA, but she is not getting her attack.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Cyrrex
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Reply #128 on: October 25, 2020, 08:43:03 AM

Yeah, I get little oddities like that as well.  Have also used her Action Surge a couple of times on to not actually get to use it.

A bit disappointed level maxes out at 4 at this point.  I only just got to the Underdark, and am well past the point where I would have made 5.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Khaldun
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Reply #129 on: October 25, 2020, 12:05:58 PM

It took me a while with Lae'zel to realize that she was getting baned everytime because I equipped those Absolute gloves.

BTW, who is the priestess-looking person in the loading screens? Is that supposed to be Shadowheart? Doesn't look like she does in the game.
jgsugden
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Reply #130 on: October 25, 2020, 07:01:32 PM

It took me a while with Lae'zel to realize that she was getting baned everytime because I equipped those Absolute gloves.

BTW, who is the priestess-looking person in the loading screens? Is that supposed to be Shadowheart? Doesn't look like she does in the game.
Yes, that is Shadowheart. 

No, nothing like her.

I made the same mistake with those Gloves.  Then I gave them to Shadowheart as having her Bane an enemy is often better than having her cast her cantrip.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #131 on: October 25, 2020, 07:22:32 PM

Alright so she's probably a character who switches back and forth between the good god and the bad god, etc. Sort of a boringly familar trope.
Rake
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Reply #132 on: October 26, 2020, 03:29:31 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaJFP9v-ztk&list=PLrDx_gq2DCNK5ycc6YpOfFFpaPs80cIGn

This is a very interesting run through the game, that gets around that annoying group actions having to be done for each character bullshit.
Cyrrex
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Reply #133 on: October 26, 2020, 05:30:22 AM

That looks like a Wizard in heavy armour and yet somehow his cantrips hitting super hard and all the physical attacks are hitting almost every time.  In other words, broken.  Or is it because the dwarf has automatic proficiency?  Odd stuff.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 05:35:35 AM by Cyrrex »

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Rake
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Reply #134 on: October 27, 2020, 12:59:29 PM

I was a bit surprised that the Dwarf using a Greatsword was hitting so often, but I think he's mostly using tricks to get an advantage on the enemies, so that kind of makes the "to hit" not such an issue.

I used the Gith on my Wizard run and used that Paladin Sword all the way through with no issues.
Khaldun
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Reply #135 on: October 27, 2020, 02:15:32 PM

By the way, I found that paladin encounter super-confusing. Are they paladins or not paladins? On one hand, they seem to be demon cultists; on the other hand the game still kind of treats them like they were actually paladins.

Kind of adds to the alignment weirdness of the whole early setup. There is really not a classic Dudley Do-Right character in the whole mix except maybe the big-shot druid and even he isn't really. The tiefling head sort of is? I guess Rath, the nice druid who doesn't want to kill little girls is? But otherwise it's kind of a real messy moral landscape. Which I'm fine with except that I get no real feel for the actual area or region that the EA takes place in. It's super-vanilla except for the goblin base and the Underdark. Well,  and I guess for the crashed ship.

One thing I do want to say about the cutscenes that open it and the storyline afterwards is that it's a great example of a level 1 campaign that doesn't stick the level 1 characters with grinding rats and kobolds. You're dealing with mind-flayers and Avernus and an actually dangerous goblin army and a hag right from the get-go. So yay for that.
Polysorbate80
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Reply #136 on: October 31, 2020, 11:09:33 AM

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« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 03:13:28 AM by Polysorbate80 »

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
Khaldun
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Reply #137 on: October 31, 2020, 07:29:08 PM

I would really like them to enforce LOS on everything, yes. Otherwise what's the fucking point of having war drums all over the goblin base and so on? Basically what I think they've done is define "groups" and when one enemy in a group is attacked, the whole group is mobilized regardless of LOS and they all have perfect knowledge of where everyone is--they essentially have a group AI rather than agent-based AI. That feels lazy and it produces fights that are much less interesting than they should be.
Polysorbate80
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Reply #138 on: October 31, 2020, 07:55:15 PM

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« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 03:13:45 AM by Polysorbate80 »

“Why the fuck would you ... ?” is like 80% of the conversation with Poly — Chimpy
Khaldun
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Reply #139 on: October 31, 2020, 09:29:45 PM

Yeah. It's fine that the premise is that the tadpoles aren't the usual thing etc etc. but also the idea that you gotta find one of several exceptionally skilled healing solutions pronto is kind of ah well.
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