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Author Topic: Avengers: Infinity War  (Read 8362 times)
Samwise
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Reply #210 on: May 29, 2018, 03:39:12 PM

If you don't like Thor: Ragnarok you have no soul.

I can see not really enjoying this if you're burned out on big action spectacle. It's a very well crafted piece but if you're sick of the whole blockbuster type genre it's not going to do much for you.

Yeah this is pretty much the best burger out there but if you don't eat meat then it's not any better than mcdonalds.

It begs the question though of what the fuck these vegans are doing at the House of Prime Rib.

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Trippy
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Reply #211 on: May 30, 2018, 08:05:31 PM

The Transformers/M.A.S.K. stuff moved to the Hasbro thread which jgsugden kindly pointed out: http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=25104.0
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Reply #212 on: June 03, 2018, 03:18:28 PM

I loved Infinity War but blockbuster fatigue may be a thing, I'm going to miss Deadpool 2, Solo, Ant Man and maybe even Venom if the world of mouth is bad but probably not.

Imo Nu-Avengers led by Widow could be pretty fun but it must be scary at Marvel that so much of the "plan" requires us to give a fuck about a Captain Marvel character that is being introduced with a prequel/throwback movie. Prequels are shit. Everyone needs to stop making them forever.

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Velorath
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Reply #213 on: June 03, 2018, 11:44:27 PM

Seems a bit of a stretch to call Captain Marvel a prequel movie.
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Reply #214 on: June 04, 2018, 05:18:17 AM

It kinda is though ?

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NowhereMan
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Reply #215 on: June 04, 2018, 05:43:44 AM

Depends how much time travel shenanigans plays into it and whether it's plot or theme wise supposed to be setting up stuff that's happened in the movies that have already been released. Like, I don't think Clone Wars qualifies as a prequel for the OT Star Wars because it's telling its own story earlier in the universe rather than being focused on setting up the characters and events of the OT.

Like I don't think Agent Carter is a prequel for Iron Man even though it's set earlier and features characters who play some part in the those movies.

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Ironwood
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Reply #216 on: June 04, 2018, 06:27:51 AM

Fair enough ;  I disagree.

It's a shared universe with shared characters.  Films set in that same Chronotopic Oeuvre therefore are prequels by default.

lolz.

So, yeah, I actually think Clone Wars, et al are Prequels if they're accepted by the universe at large as Canon.

Now, if you wanna talk 'DIRECT PREQUEL' to Infinity Wars, then maybe not.  But definitely a Prequel Film. 

Anyway.  Who cares.  Countdown to big ole reset still ongoing.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #217 on: June 04, 2018, 08:47:03 AM



Imo Nu-Avengers led by Widow could be pretty fun

God I hope not. The mcu has done absolutely nothing to make me give a shit about black widow who went from "wow cool super spy" in iron man to "ok i guess she just hits things with sticks" in the last couple movies. Maybe Scarjo is just really done with all of this or maybe they can't write the character in an interesting way that fits with the action setting but she's about as notable as falcon to me, maybe less so.

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Reply #218 on: June 04, 2018, 10:31:12 AM

A prequel retroactively "sets up" that was previously done.  If CM is a standalone story that focuses on CM and doesn't directly tie to the Marvel universe as we know it, then it isn't a prequel.  If it ends up being something that twists our understanding of Iron Man, the Avengers, Guardians, etc...  then it clearly is.  I think it'll be in the middle - some stuff that relates to the future (something that mimics Fury's post Iron Man statement, something that sets up the solution for Avengers 4, etc...), but a solid stand-alone story with no ties to the future.  Less "Where did Vader come from" and more "Knights of the Old Republic", if you will.

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Reply #219 on: June 04, 2018, 11:24:14 AM

It kinda is though ?


Would you consider the first Captain America a prequel just because it took place chronologically before the other MCU movies that had come out? I don't really think Captain Marvel is being made with an eye towards filling in gaps in a story we already know or to explain random lines of dialogue from other movies like Rogue One and Solo. Conversely, is Ant Man a sequel to Avengers: Age of Ultron because it takes place later?
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Reply #220 on: June 04, 2018, 12:37:09 PM

I disagree that "happens earlier chronologically" = prequel. A prequel is an earlier chapter of the same story, Ant Man and Wasp also happens before Infinity War and it's not a prequel either. Captain Marvel is just a different story that happens at a different time.

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eldaec
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Reply #221 on: June 04, 2018, 12:40:57 PM



Imo Nu-Avengers led by Widow could be pretty fun

God I hope not. The mcu has done absolutely nothing to make me give a shit about black widow who went from "wow cool super spy" in iron man to "ok i guess she just hits things with sticks" in the last couple movies. Maybe Scarjo is just really done with all of this or maybe they can't write the character in an interesting way that fits with the action setting but she's about as notable as falcon to me, maybe less so.

I don't see any evidence she is phoning it in, but a super spy doesn't really make any sense if she only pops up in crossovers where everything is teams of superheroes and/or villians literally running at each other across an airfield. The only times she ever got to be a spy was her intro scene in Avengers, and I guess Iron Man 2.

To be honest, when the main thing she was given in two avengers films was to be a love interest for other more important Avengers - I don't understand why she is still putting up with it. Maybe she is on RDJ tier money on account of getting in at IM2.

A black widow film that is basically James Bond with Scarlett Johannson is the easiest thing to make work imaginable.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 12:44:38 PM by eldaec »

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Reply #222 on: June 04, 2018, 12:50:23 PM

The problem with making more solo films about established Avengers is always going to be "where the fuck is everyone else", the last Cap film was basically an Avengers movie and even Thor had to team up with Hulk way the fuck out in space. You can have solo movies with non Avenger related characters like Strange or Ant Man, but you try to get anyone else alone at this point and it's going to feel extremely forced.

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HaemishM
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Reply #223 on: June 04, 2018, 01:15:33 PM

I don't think you have to make a solo movie feel like "where the fuck is Cap?" so long as you temper the conflict to something that isn't fucking global. The minute you start doing something like "giant wheel of fire in the sky threatening global destruction" you have to call in the Avengers. Dr. Strange was an exception to this because of the different sort of realm he works in (also Strange not having met the Avengers).

There are plenty of good Black Widow solo stories from the last 5 years to use as basis for a good solo film. I also thought the Red Room stuff and her role in Winter Soldier were a good use of the character.

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Reply #224 on: June 04, 2018, 01:17:49 PM

I could see a Black Widow/Winter Soldier team up if there's a really good reason why they need to remain low key and avoid the appearance of 'supers'. Sticking a Stark cameo in at the beginning with some disastrous consequences (more investigation leads get totally closed up because of high profile than 'civilians literally dying') could work.

I guess I could see it along the lines of Cap 2, a chance to make in universe spy thriller might help shake up things feeling quite so stale by shifting genres around a bit again. I'm not really sure I could see them bothering with the build up to phase 2 and bringing in new faces.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #225 on: June 04, 2018, 01:23:52 PM

I would love a black widow solo film but we haven’t gotten one. It’s not that i think the character is bad just utterly wasted and out of place, so much so that im staring to actively get annoyed by it.  Like Okoye would be on the front lines slugging it out, she’s a warrior and a general but widow? Wtf its like a spiderman movie set in a submarine.

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Reply #226 on: June 04, 2018, 01:33:37 PM

It kinda is though ?


Would you consider the first Captain America a prequel just because it took place chronologically before the other MCU movies that had come out? I don't really think Captain Marvel is being made with an eye towards filling in gaps in a story we already know or to explain random lines of dialogue from other movies like Rogue One and Solo. Conversely, is Ant Man a sequel to Avengers: Age of Ultron because it takes place later?

Yes.

I disagree that "happens earlier chronologically" = prequel. A prequel is an earlier chapter of the same story, Ant Man and Wasp also happens before Infinity War and it's not a prequel either. Captain Marvel is just a different story that happens at a different time.

No.

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jgsugden
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Reply #227 on: June 04, 2018, 01:45:07 PM

I disagree that "happens earlier chronologically" = prequel. A prequel is an earlier chapter of the same story, Ant Man and Wasp also happens before Infinity War and it's not a prequel either. Captain Marvel is just a different story that happens at a different time.
No.
Technically correct, apparently.  Any story set in the same 'universe' that precedes another is technically a prequel, apparently.  Thus, Cheers is a prequel to Law and Order SVU (Cheers -> St. Elsewhere -> SVU) (except it came before the SVU... duh),

 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 05:17:00 PM by jgsugden »

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eldaec
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Reply #228 on: June 04, 2018, 03:35:23 PM

The problem with making more solo films about established Avengers is always going to be "where the fuck is everyone else", the last Cap film was basically an Avengers movie and even Thor had to team up with Hulk way the fuck out in space. You can have solo movies with non Avenger related characters like Strange or Ant Man, but you try to get anyone else alone at this point and it's going to feel extremely forced.

I disagree.

"The Avengers aren't here" is inherently built into the premise. The audience is in that mindset before they even show up. Noone asked the question in Dr Strange or Iron Mans, or CA2. Noone sensible asks it about the TV shows.

The avenger-related-character thing seems an arbitrary rule. Anyway, everyone is avenger related now. Ant man is avenger related since avengers 2 but nbd that pym isn't collaborating with Tony Stark. Honestly I wish they'd waste much less screentime on terrible exposition dialog to explain this stuff.

Works fine in the comics too.

In black widow's case she is supposed to be a spy so having her do a secret thing is not exactly a stretch.

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eldaec
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Reply #229 on: June 04, 2018, 03:47:59 PM

I could see a Black Widow/Winter Soldier team up if there's a really good reason why they need to remain low key and avoid the appearance of 'supers'. Sticking a Stark cameo in at the beginning with some disastrous consequences (more investigation leads get totally closed up because of high profile than 'civilians literally dying') could work.

This is at least twice as much crossover and way more cameos than necessary or desirable. Stop it.

Pick a character. Make a film about that character. Anyone extra has to make the film better in its own right.

Civil War should have been strictly Cap vs Ironman. It should have been called that.

Avengers 2 needed about 30% fewer dudes and least 1 fewer romantic sub plots.

Cap 2 had about the right amount of crossover.

Before someone says it - I appreciate this isn't what is going to happen.

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Reply #230 on: June 05, 2018, 05:29:07 AM

Would you consider the first Captain America a prequel just because it took place chronologically before the other MCU movies that had come out?

Also, just to flesh this one out a little further (and beat that dead horse into submission), this is the first film with the Tesseract, which is an Infinity Stone and the one that ends up in more of the movies than I can think on right now and also has Red Skull.

Basically, if you haven't seen this one, you have no fucking idea who the tit in the cowl is during the Soul Stone scenes.  And, yes, I know someone is going to come back with bullshit about Red Skull being 'famous', but I'm talking about those chaps who are fresh to comic book movies without knowing about comics.

It's a DIRECT prequel to so very, very much.

There is literally no way to untangle any of the Marvel movies from each other in this regard.  I literally can't think of any of them that I can't connect to the other movies.  Yes, even Ant Man.  Yes, even the second Thor movie that people seem to love to hate on.  It's got a fucking Infinity Stone as the direct plot point.  I suspect that Ant Man and Wasp has the potential to be the most 'standalone', but if they're clever they'll work stuff in there too.  The strength of the shared universe is how very finely crafted and shared it truly is and it's really special particularly when you stack it up against the competition, which at the moment is only Star Wars.  DC just fucked that chicken early.

Basically, I truly love the way these movies work together and I'm going to be sad to see them go, even if they are formulaic to the max.


Finally, I'm disagreeing with some of you, not berating you. If you truly say 'nah, that's not a prequel to me' then shine on.  Who cares.

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eldaec
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Reply #231 on: June 05, 2018, 06:47:54 AM

Was there an overarching story for CA to provide a prior chapter to at that point? Without that it would just be 'episode 1'. I don't really remember.


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NowhereMan
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Reply #232 on: June 05, 2018, 07:44:15 AM

It's really a semantics discussion at this point over what counts as a prequel. My understanding of the term is fairly narrow, IW's is pretty broad. I don't think it's something we're going to advance much on beyond realising that, I'm really not sure which is more 'correct' in terms of usage (unless jgsugden solved that).

eldaec: I think Black Widow would work pretty well with a Winter Soldier co-star, I'm not totally convinced the character is interesting enough to carry a movie purely by herself and I'm not sure the MCU needs a whole cast of extra bit players introduced for the rest. It needs more characters unless it's literally just 'BW and some baddies'. WS would be the natural choice there. Also a pointless argument since, as you said, the movie isn't going to happen at this point.

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Reply #233 on: June 05, 2018, 08:14:58 AM

To be fair you're probably right that winter soldier would be ok in a BW movie, with the caveat that I wouldn't trust them not to turn it into her third romantic relationship with an Avenger. If in your imaginary film you cut the Tony Stark cameo I'd say you have an imaginary deal.

But I get easily triggered by the silly suggestion that these movies 'need' a superhero co-star when evidence suggests the quality of an MCU movie, indeed the quality of any superhero movie, is inversely proportional to the amount of crossover going on. The first Avengers is the only crossover driven superhero movie that I'd describe as above average.

Also Scarlett Johannsen can carry a mindless superhero spy romp just fine from a standing start. Black Widow has spent 70% of her time as an audience surrogate and the remaining 30% on bad romantic subplots - the character is surprisingly undefined given her screen time. Take her out of the avenger environment and the only traits you really need to keep are female, smart, and good at punching.

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Reply #234 on: June 05, 2018, 08:54:50 AM

As the person who initially used the word prequel, I'm sorry how this turned out.

But the point is, in a "cinematic universe" we have movies that expanding the timeline and we have movies that are fleshing out something that is already in the past. Captain Marvel is not advancing the timeline, I do believe that will make the barrier before it becomes important and exciting higher than if it wasn't in the MCU's past. That's all.

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Velorath
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Reply #235 on: June 05, 2018, 11:35:06 AM

As the person who initially used the word prequel, I'm sorry how this turned out.

But the point is, in a "cinematic universe" we have movies that expanding the timeline and we have movies that are fleshing out something that is already in the past. Captain Marvel is not advancing the timeline, I do believe that will make the barrier before it becomes important and exciting higher than if it wasn't in the MCU's past. That's all.

Yeah, taking place in WWI instead of advancing the DCU timeline sure hurt Wonder Woman. I'm sure people aren't going to go see this just because it introduces a strong female character into a genre largely dominated by men.
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Reply #236 on: June 05, 2018, 12:15:03 PM

As the person who initially used the word prequel, I'm sorry how this turned out.

But the point is, in a "cinematic universe" we have movies that expanding the timeline and we have movies that are fleshing out something that is already in the past. Captain Marvel is not advancing the timeline, I do believe that will make the barrier before it becomes important and exciting higher than if it wasn't in the MCU's past. That's all.

Yeah, taking place in WWI instead of advancing the DCU timeline sure hurt Wonder Woman. I'm sure people aren't going to go see this just because it introduces a strong female character into a genre largely dominated by men.

To be fair people really love the current marvel timeline and no one gives a shit about the DCU at all.

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eldaec
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Reply #237 on: June 05, 2018, 01:08:24 PM

The people who love it are outnumbered 20 to 1 by the people who have no fricking clue about it but who do remember that marvel usually make good movies in their own right.

My observation of normal people is that they remember the heroes' characters but give zero fucks about the continuing plot. I'd go as far as to guess that less than half the people who have watched this very movie would be able to tell you what an infinity stone is even today. I also suspect they would struggle to name 1 MCU villain that isn't loki or thanos. And Thanos is a stretch.

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Reply #238 on: June 05, 2018, 02:40:38 PM

Solo stories aren't hard. You just come up with a reason why the characters are out of touch with everyone else. That's even easier in a spy-based story than it is otherwise. The Black Widow has had at least five or six iterations of stories where she seems to have (or really has) gone rogue and has deliberately dropped out of contact with/is running from superhero colleagues.

The only time it really gets hard is when you have characters like Superman and the Flash who should be able to nearly always come roaring to the rescue in seconds for superheroes less powerful than they are. And if the reason they can't is that they're already involved in a desperate battle or situation, then following the less-powered hero is by definition almost paying attention to the wrong thing. But even that can be charming if it is done right--there was an episode of the DCAU Justice League that has Booster Gold doing sidelines work while the big guys battle Mordru, but he turns out to actually get involved in the most important part of the whole battle by accident.
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Reply #239 on: June 05, 2018, 03:05:37 PM

This is like "having a criticism" that Batman, Supe, WW and the Flash didn't turn up to save the day in Suicide Squad. Of course, that would quickly escalate to "why the fuck did they get this bunch of losers together to deal with this in the first place with those big guys available."

Of course a Black Widow movie could work. But they aren't making it. You can argue about why, but there it is.

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Reply #240 on: June 05, 2018, 03:14:53 PM

This is like "having a criticism" that Batman, Supe, WW and the Flash didn't turn up to save the day in Suicide Squad. Of course, that would quickly escalate to "why the fuck did they get this bunch of losers together to deal with this in the first place with those big guys available."


It was a valid criticism which they tried to lampshade in the movie.

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Reply #241 on: June 05, 2018, 04:10:29 PM

The base premise of the movie - the Squad gets sent in with an unknown objective, which was actually to secretly extract Waller from the danger zone - works just fine. It fell apart when they decided to have them all become heroes and try saving the day.

Ok, I lie. It fell apart when they decided to make the movie PG and have most of the bad guys be formless blob people.

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Reply #242 on: June 05, 2018, 04:16:05 PM

Also when they decided to make the villain the Enchantress who uses her garbage fire ring in the sky to something something instead of international super terrorism or the goddamn Joker.

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Reply #243 on: June 05, 2018, 09:06:48 PM

But the dancing, man, the DANCING.

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Reply #244 on: June 06, 2018, 11:07:17 AM

Is that what that was? No, that was a seizure. I've seen seizures and I've seen dancing. That was a seizure.

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