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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 248188 times)
eldaec
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Reply #875 on: June 28, 2018, 12:18:19 AM

The one* legitimate complaint about TLJ is that there is no paper or books in star wars.

Luke should have burned the books when saw them, for fear they were some evil sith relic from a galaxy far far away and a long time in the future.


*oneish

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TheWalrus
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Reply #876 on: June 28, 2018, 12:28:05 AM

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. There are books in the Star Wars universe. Evidence: You saw them.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Ironwood
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Reply #877 on: June 28, 2018, 01:14:51 AM

I too thought Luke was great in the film.  I'm not really sure what the complaint was.  Again, seems to me it's just folks annoyed that the film doesn't follow the plotline that they've made in their own head, which is stupid.

A much better criticism would be that the film was garbage.

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Sky
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Reply #878 on: June 28, 2018, 07:03:43 AM

I missed that Rey stole the books the first time I saw the film. When Yoda said 'Worry not about the books, young Rey already has all that was contained in them', I was worried they were setting her up as some miracle super Jedi natural...seeing the books this time I was all 'damn Yoda, you slick'.

And on my second viewing, I loved Luke's story so much. He went from whiny kid to hero to teacher (off screen) to bitter recluse to redemption. Beautiful arc for him, taking in parts of Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 08:44:42 AM by Sky »
HaemishM
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Reply #879 on: June 28, 2018, 08:44:26 AM

Having watched it a second time, I'd say the only redeemable parts in the entire fucking movie are the interactions between Kylo and Rey, especially the talk with Snoke and the fight scene after his death. Everything involving Leia, Luke, Finn, Rose, Poe and Holdo is garbage that doesn't do nearly enough with good actors and decent character setups. Finn is particularly wasted because neither Abrams or Johnson's script has really given us any depth to the internal conflict Finn should be feeling based on his arc. I actually didn't mind the Rose character, it's just that her character got wrapped up in the worst story beat in the whole new trilogy, that goddamn casino snark hunt. Almost all of the humorous bits that even got a mild chuckle from me in the first viewing fell completely flat in the second viewing.

Threash
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Reply #880 on: June 28, 2018, 08:44:45 AM

I think that is the main thing defenders of the movie are having problems with. It is extremely easy to find problems, plot holes and dumb things in Star Wars movies, ALL Star Wars movies. TLJ didn't have more than the average, people just happen to want to nitpick this one to death like they never did the originals. None of them stand up to much scrutiny, either enjoy them all for what they are supposed to be or start questioning yourself as to why you happen to hold this one to such a ridiculously higher standard than any other.

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Khaldun
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Reply #881 on: June 28, 2018, 08:50:28 AM

Luke isn't flushing the best part, it IS the best part.

A youthful idealist farmboy who stays an uncomplicated Dudley Do-Right in his seventies is a tedious and stupid character. Thank god that's not what we got.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #882 on: June 28, 2018, 08:50:46 AM

There were three protagonists: Rey, Finn, and Poe. Rey's story was mostly good, Finn's story was mostly bad, and Poe's was mostly pointless. Only Rey's had any real development, the other two could have died in the first 5 minutes and it wouldn't have mattered.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #883 on: June 28, 2018, 08:56:21 AM

Holdo as a character only existed because they didn't want to get rid of Poe for merch sales. That entire storyline would have been perfect if you replaced every Holdo part with Leia and it was Poe that made the sacrifice.  It would have been set up making the audience think Leia would leave in the second movie but Poe stops her from sacrificing herself and he does instead.


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HaemishM
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Reply #884 on: June 28, 2018, 08:58:28 AM

No, Leia should have been the one to sacrifice herself, by stunning Poe and having someone carry him off while she flew the cruiser into Valhalla. It was all there for a perfect send off for that character and instead we got purple-haired redshirt whose entire purpose in the movie seemed to be to piss off Poe for no good goddamn reason.

TheWalrus
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Reply #885 on: June 28, 2018, 09:03:34 AM

You guys should remake it.

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BobtheSomething
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Reply #886 on: June 28, 2018, 09:12:11 AM

You guys should remake it.


Why?  The entire sequel setting is damaged beyond repair.  Just let JJ pinch out the next turd and then pretend the whole trilogy never happened, just like the prequels.
HaemishM
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Reply #887 on: June 28, 2018, 09:20:25 AM

You guys should remake it.


Give me the budget Rian Johnson did and I'd gladly write and direct a better Star Wars movie than TLJ.

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Reply #888 on: June 28, 2018, 12:09:48 PM

No, Leia should have been the one to sacrifice herself, by stunning Poe and having someone carry him off while she flew the cruiser into Valhalla. It was all there for a perfect send off for that character and instead we got purple-haired redshirt whose entire purpose in the movie seemed to be to piss off Poe for no good goddamn reason.

Holdo was awful so as a character that even my wife, who doesn't give a damn about these movies at all, was like "She's got to be the absolute worst leader in the galaxy."

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Reply #889 on: June 28, 2018, 01:08:41 PM

Luke isn't flushing the best part, it IS the best part.

A youthful idealist farmboy who stays an uncomplicated Dudley Do-Right in his seventies is a tedious and stupid character. Thank god that's not what we got.

I 100% agree with this.  Luke was the only interesting character IMO.

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Raguel
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Reply #890 on: June 28, 2018, 01:20:06 PM

Luke isn't flushing the best part, it IS the best part.

A youthful idealist farmboy who stays an uncomplicated Dudley Do-Right in his seventies is a tedious and stupid character. Thank god that's not what we got.

I 100% agree with this.  Luke was the only interesting character IMO.

Yeah I really liked Luke in this one. I think it's Hammil's best performance.
jgsugden
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Reply #891 on: June 28, 2018, 01:23:34 PM

Were what we got and Dudley Do-Right the only options?

Hamill, decades ago, pitched the idea that Luke become the villain to Lucas - and then pitched it again to JJ (well before he was going to direct TFA).  Here.

I could pitch 20 different storylines for Luke that had the potential to be better than what we got, or than a Luke that acted like he was frozen in time between Jedi and now.  I also think they could have executed the version that was filmed in a much better way.

....
Yeah I really liked Luke in this one. I think it's Hammil's best performance.
In Star Wars, maybe.  His Joker was far better than any of his Star Wars work.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 01:25:18 PM by jgsugden »

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HaemishM
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Reply #892 on: June 28, 2018, 01:27:17 PM

I still think my biggest problem with Luke's arc in TLJ was how quickly they wanted to handwave away his failure with Kylo Ren. It was literally 3-4 sentences with some perfunctory flashbacks and while I got the impression of Luke's pain over it (because of Hammil's acting ability), I still felt like it was glossed over. This might have been fine if what they'd focused on had been in anyway interesting but most of it wasn't.

Khaldun
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Reply #893 on: June 28, 2018, 04:14:29 PM

When did you EVER get detailed backstory on ANYONE in the first three films?

Obi-Wan: all you know is he's a Jedi wizard who lives like a hermit. He fought in the "Clone Wars", whatever those were. By the end of the third movie, you only know a teeny bit more--basically that he was there on purpose to watch over Luke and also that he's a goddamn liar.

Yoda: really really old, a Jedi Master, hiding for some reason. Doesn't like Luke. That's about it.

Leia: She's a princess. From Alderaan. Whatever that means. Very involved in the Rebellion.

Han Solo: smuggler. On the outs with a crime lord who turns out to be an alien slug. Makes boastful claims. Might be true, might not be. Friends with a Yeti.

C3PO and R2D2: droids owned by the captain of a Rebel freighter. That's about it.

Chewbacca: Yeti who rips arms out of sockets. Maybe.

The Rebellion: Fights the Empire. Not very well.

Darth Vader: Bad guy. Might be a robot? Might be a dude in a suit for unspecified reasons. By ESB, we know: dude in a suit, looks fucked up. Why? Who knows. In ANH, we think he just betrayed the Jedi and killed most of them. By ESB, we know that he's Luke's dad. Circumstances of going from Luke's dad to Darth Vader, not much known.

Emperor Palpatine: only a name in ANH. By RoTJ, we know he's the bad guy behind it all, but exactly how or what transpired to put him at the top of the heap, we haven't the faintest idea.

Lando Calrissian: scoundrel. Owned the Millennium Falcon. Knows Han from way back. Has gone respectable (at least in his own mind).

-----------------------------

And so it stood. You didn't get a single damn flashback. You got a limited amount of exposition.

TLJ gave you more detail on Kylo and Luke's previous relationship than ANYTHING the original trilogy gave you on the backstory of any of the characters. It went right to the heart of it: Luke's mastery of the Force let him see that Kylo was going to do very bad things--much as the Emperor sensed that Luke was both a danger and an opportunity to him. Like the Emperor, Luke's foresight ended up creating the situation he feared.

I fucking love that a good guy with foresight was tempted to do the obvious thing and kill before it happened. This is a classic dramatic problem--if you knew Hitler etc. Who wouldn't be tempted if you had a clear picture of that? What kind of hero says, "Never ever?" A boring one, or a hero in a genre setting where that kind of ridiculous purity is somewhat endorsed by the setting. (Superman, say.) Luke Skywalker has killed *plenty* of people in his time in war. The only person he held back from killing was his father, and his holier-than-thou ghost mentors were desperately trying to *urge* him to kill his father.
TheWalrus
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Reply #894 on: June 28, 2018, 04:18:26 PM

Sometimes I wonder if people saw the same movie I did.

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Khaldun
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Reply #895 on: June 28, 2018, 06:13:08 PM

I wonder the same.
HaemishM
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Reply #896 on: June 28, 2018, 06:42:53 PM

I'm not talking about a detailed backstory. I'm talking about SHOW ME, DON'T JUST TELL ME. Which unfortunately, TLJ did way too much of the telling without showing anything that made any goddamn sense.

Velorath
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Reply #897 on: June 28, 2018, 07:42:59 PM

I fucking love that a good guy with foresight was tempted to do the obvious thing and kill before it happened. This is a classic dramatic problem--if you knew Hitler etc. Who wouldn't be tempted if you had a clear picture of that? What kind of hero says, "Never ever?" A boring one, or a hero in a genre setting where that kind of ridiculous purity is somewhat endorsed by the setting. (Superman, say.) Luke Skywalker has killed *plenty* of people in his time in war. The only person he held back from killing was his father, and his holier-than-thou ghost mentors were desperately trying to *urge* him to kill his father.

Sure but then they try to have it both ways which I think may be my only real problem with the Luke/Kylo thing. It gets turned into some misunderstanding where Luke decided he wasn't really going to kill Kylo and then Whoops he accidentally ignited his lightsaber and Kylo just assumed the worst. It's such a half-assed, can't pick a side to come down on way to handle it. Now Luke is Dudley Do-Right in an episode of Three's Company. It's bad story telling masquerading as moral grey area.

Edit: Also visions from the Force that turn out to be self-fulfilling prophecy which fucks over the galaxy is kinda the plot of the prequels.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 08:10:21 PM by Velorath »
Sir T
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Reply #898 on: June 28, 2018, 10:52:35 PM

Yeah. even when watching it I knew that Jedi Masters who were hearing massive warning sirens when looking at the spoiled brat would then allow him to be trained because they felt helpless was completely ludicrous. "Oh dear a building fell on him. Too bad so sad."

And I'm sorry, but "Oh the lightsaber went off by accident so he feels guilty" was this films "Greebo shot first." Get fucked filmmakers, he was there to kill him. Own it.

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Goumindong
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Reply #899 on: June 29, 2018, 12:24:56 AM

“The lightsaber went off by accident”?

What are you talking about here? Luke says himself that it was a “moment of weakness” not that “oops my finger slipped”

Velorath
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Reply #900 on: June 29, 2018, 01:31:25 AM

It's a moment of weakness that passes immediately but happens right in front of Kylo who happens to wake up right at that point, sees Luke standing there and thinks that his master is going to kill him. The end result is that Luke isn't "tarnished" in the eyes of fans because he ended up doing the right thing but still gets to carry around his emo guilt . I'm sorry but it's sloppy, hack writing that's the writer's attempt at having their cake and eating it. No, it's not a literal finger slipping accident. It's a "I probably shouldn't have had this internal debate standing over his sleeping body with my weapon drawn" accident.

This movie toys so many times with characters shifting from one side of the Force to the other but never actually has the balls to commit to it. Have Luke make the hard choice. That at least is a bold writing choice and it's actually the scene we get the first time we see the flashback from Kylo's point of view, so later when we see Luke's point of view it just neuters what could be an interesting story with "well yeah, it happened but I already decided I wasn't really going to kill him". It's anti-climactic and makes Luke's feelings of shame feel really damn extreme, especially when the real shameful fact is Luke fucking off to an island while the monster he thinks he created runs wild killing people including Luke's best friend (he also blasts Luke's sister out into space but she got better).
eldaec
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Reply #901 on: June 29, 2018, 03:55:41 AM

I can only imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if someone significant had switched sides.

Would have been glorious.

I still like this film. Yeah, casino section worse than I remembered. First Order 'comic' moments still bad. World building still appalling. But Rey/Luke/Kylo all great - Luke handled so much better than Han was. Poe's story solid, Finn's story is fine when not on Casino planet. No issues whatsoever with Leia in Space or Rose or with Admiral Purple.

My episode 9 wishlist

 - Poe and Finn are lovers. It can be implied so people can get really mad arguing about it without any possible resolution.

 - Ewan Mcgregor as obiwan force ghost. Because people name their sons after him despite barely being aware of his existence - so why the hell not?

 - Rose promoted to General. Every speaking rebel human character in Rotj got at least that rank - General might be an NCO rank in star wars idk.

 - More spaceships. So far the sequels have only introduced a new xwing, the bomber, and three types of tie fighter.

 - CGI Leia as main character.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 03:57:12 AM by eldaec »

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Khaldun
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Reply #902 on: June 29, 2018, 05:12:24 AM

Ok, I can go with the "accidental lightsaber" as the real mistake in that scene. Isn't really necessary. If they'd set it up so that:

Luke went there to brood about maybe killing Kylo.
Kylo at that time knew he was a bad seed having bad thoughts and was furious and terrified that Luke knew it too.
Luke decides he can't kill Kylo.
Kylo strikes out with the Force, Luke activates his lightsaber to protect himself.

Later on: Kylo convinces himself that Luke was about to kill him. That's exactly what bad guys do: they take a half-truth, make it all a lie, and then convince themselves that the lie is the truth, so much so that they become convincing (sort of) to others. The scene is pretty much this, which is why I like it. But not perfectly executed.
Sky
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Reply #903 on: June 29, 2018, 08:25:12 AM

Thank god there wasn't an Internet when the originals came out. Holy shit.
Sir T
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Reply #904 on: June 29, 2018, 08:28:29 AM

People were pissed enough about the whole "Greebo shot first" bullshit as it was.

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HaemishM
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Reply #905 on: June 29, 2018, 08:33:42 AM

The Luke/Kylo turning scene is really so weak in every possible way. It's over so quickly that it has no emotional impact. All the conflict in the scene that matters is completely internal so we don't really get a sense of any of that conflict without relying on the character's narration, which is a mortal cinematic sin. Not to mention that it visually contradicts what we've already been shown about this conflict - i.e. the Knights of Ren scene in TFA. In that first scene in TFA, Kylo is in his full Kylo Ren gear, mask and all, surrounded by a number of Jedi while the Jedi temple burns. In TLJ, we are visually led to believe that Luke is buried in the rubble of Ben Solo's hut and Ben was in his Padawon outfit. Was the mask already created? Did Ben create it and was hiding it or did Snoke give it to him (which would seem strange since Snoke is shown to fucking hate the thing in TLJ)? And like Velorath said, Luke just fucks off to a remote island rather than try to stop the carnage that Kylo Ren is inflicting due to his own "failure?" There's so much lazy hand-waving in the story and in the visuals of these scenes that it's infuriating, not the least of which because of the things they DID choose to show, like the slow-motion chase scene and the casino subplot.

If they really wanted to subvert expectations, having someone significant truly change sides (whether it be Rey or Finn or Kylo) would have been the way to do it. And yes, the wailing and gnashing of teeth would have been worth it because the filmmakers would have taken a risk as big as killing all the characters in Rogue One. As it was, it felt like all the risks they took with TLJ were half-assed and wishy-washy like they wanted to go full grey and instead all they got was some pale shades of black and white.

grebo
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Reply #906 on: June 29, 2018, 10:29:02 AM

Guys, the real and only problem with TLJ is Rian Johnson.  If you don't believe me, go watch Looper and The Brothers Bloom

Featured prominently, you will find
 - loads of pointless time wasting subplots
 - truly cringeawful dialogue
 - idiotic plot choices
 - disregard for sensible rules people have created before (mainly looper here)
 - difficulty with pacing
 - wasting the talent of his cast

Rian Johnson is either an epic troll or a sociopath.

Also watch Brick, which is arguably not terrible, though it does beat its core gag to death.

Why don't you try our other games?
HaemishM
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Reply #907 on: June 29, 2018, 10:29:51 AM

I liked both Looper and Brick. I did not like TLJ.

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Reply #908 on: June 29, 2018, 10:39:22 AM

I was really excited for TLJ because I've enjoyed Rian Johnson's other work.  Brick is one of my all-time favorite movies and I liked Looper and Brothers Bloom just fine.

TLJ was fine IMO (if you just cut out the casino subplot I think you've got a better movie than Force Awakens) but disappointing compared to his other stuff.

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eldaec
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Reply #909 on: June 29, 2018, 11:06:36 AM

Also his breaking bad episodes are also pretty well regarded.

You're welcome to call out the world in general for having bad taste.

BUT

1) You're wrong.
2) it is unlikely that many people in this thread are unfamiliar with his work.

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