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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 56270 times)
Teleku
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Reply #630 on: February 08, 2018, 09:44:25 AM

Indeed.  Also feels like a big miss for a Guile's Theme Goes With Everything meme.

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Reply #631 on: February 08, 2018, 11:32:42 AM


Made even better by the fact that Plinkett used that same track in some of his original Star Wars reviews.   awesome, for real

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Reply #632 on: March 01, 2018, 07:41:10 PM


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Reply #633 on: March 01, 2018, 11:00:07 PM

Yeah, that reviewer's a nimrod.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
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Reply #634 on: March 02, 2018, 03:36:17 AM

Literally made it ten seconds. Hate his voice, hate his bullshit buzzword bingo. It might even be a good review, but I'll never know.

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Reply #635 on: March 02, 2018, 09:31:35 AM

I watched about 10 minutes.  He makes some good points, but that delivery is annoying.

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Reply #636 on: March 02, 2018, 11:22:44 AM

Liked it!   awesome, for real

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Reply #637 on: March 20, 2018, 09:16:06 PM

I saw this. I walked away with this face.  Ohhhhh, I see.

The theme of "hey buddy stop doing crazy ass stuff being a hero it gets people killed," is all well and good, except this is a franchise built on the most popular characters being heroes and doing crazy ass stuff. The tone seems like a huge departure from what makes the movies fun. It's like they were trying to be depressing but it lacked some emotional gravitas.

Rey just immediately goes to the dark side well? Why? What's this all about? What's the long mirror thing all about? It was very confusing.

We have all kinds of technology but we essentially turn the whole focus of the movie into OJ in a slow speed stellar white bronco waiting to run out of gas? You're telling me nobody can catch this thing? Not fighters? But yet they can send out a help mission to a casino planet that also fails and basically means nothing?

The plan is to abandon ship but we're also going to tell people to shut up and mind their fucking business and not be a hero?

Luke doesn't want to be a hero either? Great so I guess we're just all about not being heroes anymore. Rey is a nobody, nobody has destiny, nobody matters, we're all just trundling along waiting for the bad guys to shoot us?

It just didn't matter. Other than killing the big bad and ghosting Luke, what the hell was the actual point of this movie? If the point of the movies is going to be "don't be a hero" I can get that from anywhere else. Geez.

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Reply #638 on: March 20, 2018, 10:20:15 PM

This movie is like a Rorshach test. Forgive me, but for some of you, it makes me feel like you need everything to be really fucking obvious and really fucking simple. It's not like this iteration of it is Citizen Kane but honestly how many movies of this do you need where Dudley Do-Right saves Nell from Snidley Whiplash in exactly the same plot before you say, "Hey, maybe this time, Dudley should be allowed to wonder what it's all for" or Snidley wonders why he has this thing about tying Nell to the railroad tracks.
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Reply #639 on: March 20, 2018, 11:34:25 PM

That is absolutely not what any of the criticism of the movie is about, in any way, shape or form. It's extremely reductive, but if you want to simplify it down, most of the criticism I've seen of the movie, and the criticism I level at it is "this is not a Star Wars movie and it basically takes the piss at the very concept of a Star Wars movie - but not in a good Thor: Ragnarok way more in a Batman vs. Superman way."

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Reply #640 on: March 21, 2018, 12:40:30 AM

Yeah, my main criticism has been piss poor writing and lazy story telling.  There was nothing deep about this.  He tried to deconstruct Star Wars and go against a few expected plot beats.  Suddenly its Citizen Kane to some people, instead of a boring incoherent mess of scenes thrown together.  A friend of mine, who liked it, described it as the least consequential Star Wars ever made, and I have to agree.

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Reply #641 on: March 21, 2018, 01:56:17 AM

Yeah, I hate to beat a dead horse here but really, what is this movie about? It's a movie with a bunch of plot, but no actual story. Like if you were writing the two-sentence synopsis for this movie for the cable guide or whatever, what would it be? It feels like a movie made with the knowledge that there's going to be a Star Wars movie every year (and possibly one with this cast every other year). As such they feel this movie doesn't need to have an actual story in mind so long as it feels like there is some arc for the characters and overall story being advanced.
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Reply #642 on: March 21, 2018, 07:12:12 AM

I walked away feeling that the movie was completely pointless. Snoke's dead but I just met him really and I hardly care. Luke's "dead" but not really. Losing Han had actual impact, but this was just a strange way to finish off Luke. Then we had was 30 minutes of arc that had nothing to do with anything in regards to the side-quest for Finn and Rose.

They needed to get on the big bad ship. They didn't have the skills, but they do know of a guy on another planet in the middle of a high speed chase. So let's detour over there, find out we can't actually get to the guy, find another guy who just HAPPENS to be a slicer in prison, escape on a bunch of weird horse-cats, and then head back to the ship so that we can get on the big bad ship.

You know how you shore that up? You put the slicer in a Resistance prison on the ship and save us 30 minutes of floundering nonsense. The casino planet is so shoe-horned in there it's the pinnacle of lazy writing, and it's likely because Disney wants to sell another book or movie or some sort of cat-horse doll.

I've read other reviews about political bullshit and women and all that crap. That has nothing to do with this being a bad movie. I'm tired of people defending or attacking something based on weird political hang-ups.

At the core, it's not a Star Wars movie. It went out of it's way to try to be manipulative and depressing and came up boring. It's the anti-Empire. I didn't think of any cool lines or great moments beyond Luke's projection in the battlefield.

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Reply #643 on: March 21, 2018, 09:38:34 AM

The more time away from the movie the less I've liked it.  When I first saw it I thought it was good, not great but was really put off by how negative some people were about it.  In fact I think I still disagree with a lot of the initial criticisms (luke being too silly, he would never do this/that, floating leia, poe not being told plan, etc) because a lot of these were just writing choices that diverged from what people wanted.

What does bother me more and more with time are things like introducing the laura dern as though she was a long established character who we should give half a shit about when she dies. A side adventure with finn and rose that seems to take place in another movie and is ultimately pointless.

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Reply #644 on: March 21, 2018, 10:53:57 AM

Yeah, I hate to beat a dead horse here but really, what is this movie about?

Failure.  why so serious?

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Reply #645 on: March 21, 2018, 02:54:10 PM

I'm gonna stick to my guns here. I think you guys wanted certain Pavlovian bells run for you in expected ways and when they weren't--or they were and then you were not served the treats you have been trained to expect--you went looking for reasons to explain your dissatisfaction.

You could just as easily say that ESB is all plot and no story. It opens with a big set-piece that in the end is only important in story terms because it separates the main protagonists. One group goes off to have an abbreviated hero's journey training montage, the other marks time on the run so that two characters can develop a romance that's largely unconvincing. The bad guy gets one group of good guys, sets a trap for the training montage good guy. There's a surprise that seems to wholly contradict stuff said in the first movie (or it means that the ostensible good guys of the first movie are outrageously manipulative liars, something that the whole series never really got a grip on). It's a series of plot set-pieces that are loosely strung together, but the mood and tone is great and the set-pieces really strong. So it works.

Or ROTJ, which is two separate films, almost: the Tatooine stuff and then the Endor stuff. The central gimmick of the Endor stuff--that the Emperor has foreseen this all and it's a giant trap--ends up being voided in fundamentally inexplicable ways. (e.g., the goddamn Emperor has been successfully plotting everything for his entire life, that's why he's Emperor, and he's at the seeming peak of his powers, so why can't he see that in fact the entire thing is a trap for HIM, that he's gonna lose? Why not just stay safely on Coruscant and let Vader capture Luke and bring him back while the Rebellion gets blown away?)

You can rip all of these movies apart on story grounds, on characterization, on consistency, on what goes unexplained, etc., if you're so inclined. The question is, what inclines you? If you're someone who has liked some of these (rather than a person who hates all of them), I think Last Jedi rankles for reasons that are deeper than simple critique of story etc.
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Reply #646 on: March 21, 2018, 03:07:50 PM

ROTJ isn't really defensible. It's got some decent set pieces and the first half is ok, but yes, it absolutely falls apart in the end from the minute we are shown that Ewoks defeat the Empire. I don't have a problem with the Emperor being there at the end, as arrogance and overconfidence in his own powers is a key feature of Dark Side Jedi. He also underestimates the power of love or something. ROTJ is a weak film, made weaker by its insistence on catering to children with the goddamn Ewoks.

ESB, however, is not all plot and no story. It does actually turn some of the expectations of the original on its head - i.e. Ben Kenobi was no choir boy and he lied to Luke about Luke's father, Leia seems to be a cocktease by flitting between Luke and Han (and the sister thing didn't really come up until ROTJ), and the big awesome Jedi master is a goddamn grumpy muppet living on a bog planet in the middle of nowhere. Hoth serves a purpose - the Empire is looking for a desperate Rebellion force that's hiding out, and word is that the heroes of the Death Star battle are there. The thread that runs through them is a lot stronger than whatever the fuck was going on in TLJ.

The Last Jedi had no cohesion and very little tension. It seemed to do things just to do them without any real rhyme or reason and most of them it did badly. You could literally remove the entirety of the chase scene, casino plot and mutiny and the movie wouldn't miss them, and I daresay would be better for it.

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Reply #647 on: March 21, 2018, 03:32:39 PM

I think most of the Star Wars movies are bad (e.g. bad acting, bad script, etc.) we just give them a pass. Some people actually like the prequels (these people are WRONG). Specifically, there are a lot of problems with TLJ (are people supposed to sacrifice themselves for others or not? You can't have it both ways but this movie does) but I forgive it because it's SW and I like it.

The main issue I have with the new SW is that none of the new characters are very memorable. Maybe that's because  I'm much older than I was when I first saw SW for the first time, but I think it's more fundamental than that. For example, while I think Kylo is a much more interesting character than Vader, he's a lot less compelling of a villain. 
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Reply #648 on: March 21, 2018, 03:43:34 PM

I find him much more compelling as a villain because he is more interesting as a character. Even when you know everything about Vader, his motivations are not altogether that interesting, and in the original trilogy, we don't even know that much about his background--there's only a hint of the self-loathing and hatred of his 'master' that might be bubbling under the surface, and that only in ROTJ. Vader is a pulp/serials villain done absolutely right--pure evil, stylish, powerful. But he's all hat and no cattle in some sense.

Real villains are people who do wrong things for the wrong reasons but where that has something of a human prior to it. Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is way more interesting in that sense AND more villainous. Not liking him as a bad guy is partly a case of wanting another disfigured bad ass in black armor as the Big Bad. I'm not sure what else would foot the bill for what people think a Star Wars bad guy ought to be.

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Reply #649 on: March 21, 2018, 04:24:57 PM

As I've posted about before, Kylo Ren's biggest problem is that he's unconvincing as a bad guy - the minute he takes off the helmet and starts whinging, I am in no way convinced he's competent enough to be a villain that can carry a trilogy. The First Order is equally inept and I've been given no visual evidence that any of them can manage a slushie stand, much less a galaxy-spanning Space Fascist Empire. They weren't horrible in TFA but in TLJ it was 2.5 hours of Keystone Cops that the movie expected me to take seriously.

Vader was an inexorable force. Kylo Ren is a petulant, annoying imp.

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Reply #650 on: March 21, 2018, 04:42:03 PM

I think JJ had ideas for Ren that required him to begin as a 'Wanna Be' Vader... and that the sidetrack to Rian derailed what he was trying to do.  Rian used the characters he was given in the story that he wanted to tell, ignoring the architecture in place that had been building towards a unified trilogy, and now we're going to get another film where we face a change in direction.  Hopefully JJ will do a better job of respecting Rian's foundation than Rian did of respecting JJ's.

Regardless - we'll just have to wait and see.  I think we wasted a lot of potential with these films.  I'd have loved to have seen Luke and Han share scenes again...

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Reply #651 on: March 21, 2018, 04:53:00 PM

Hux and Ren became Colonel Sandurz and Dark Helmet.

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Reply #652 on: March 21, 2018, 04:56:32 PM

The idea of starting him as a wanna be was a good one. But the execution in tFA is bad. And in neither film is he allowed enough time or experience for him to believably grow into anything else.

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Reply #653 on: March 21, 2018, 05:18:02 PM

Kylo Ren just comes off as a angsty teen rather than a true villain. We're two movies in and in no way can I understand why The First Order has the power to do anything, it's run by idiots, for idiots.

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Reply #654 on: March 21, 2018, 06:22:54 PM

Yeah TLJ got too hung up on deconstructing Star Wars Tropes while still telling a Star Wars story, hitting all the major plot beats in radically different ways. I think Ren as a Darth Vader wannabe, someone who's fundamentally a spoiled and emotionally damaged person is a good foundation for a villain. I agree with Khaldun in principle that he's a good model for a more... mature take on the Vader idea. The problem is that he still needs some level of menace. Show us his motivation is base human, show he has flaws and isn't sexy but if he's meant to be taken seriously as a villain show us he's really fucking dangerous. Wil e Coyote does not make for a compelling villain no matter how dark his intentions or how nuanced his character portrayal.

Hell I adore the idea of getting a KotOR II style SW movie but this really wasn't it. My opinion of it has actually gone down a bit as well, partly because I think visually it was so well done and it was a decent bit of spectacle.

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Reply #655 on: March 21, 2018, 06:37:14 PM

We're two movies in and in no way can I understand why The First Order has the power to do anything, it's run by idiots, for idiots.

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Reply #656 on: March 21, 2018, 07:29:28 PM

Kylo Ren's most menacing moment was in the first few minutes of TFA where he stops the blaster bolts in mid-air while in his helmet. In the helmet, he had gravitas and cool, mainly because he seemed like an emotionless killer. Even through TFA, without his helmet he was less menacing but we got his emotional side. Unfortunately, from the moment Snoke made fun of his helmet, he regressed into pantomime brat and any character progression he might have had was lost in his general whining. Rather than humanizing him and expanding his character, he's become a one-note joke.

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Reply #657 on: March 21, 2018, 10:57:13 PM

Man fucking TFA was a bad movie, anything good I think about this pile was mainly down to at least it wasn't TFA.

But fuck this movie. I don't get why the entire "no i want to talk to the real empire ship captain" stall tactic into big sis heroically bombing them blahblah shit isn't up there was casino planet in terms of just plain stupid. BB8 plugging sparks with his 20 arms... just fuck the entire start of this one.

TFA the start was good, it was Star Wars. From the MF find on it was paint by numbers shoe on head retarded.

Rebel 1 the combat was good, it was Star Wars, in fact some of the ragtag band stuff was pretty Star Wars too. It was a Star Wars movie I guess but pointless be prequels are dumb.

Phantom Menace while not good was a Star Wars movie with Star Wars moments. Darth Maul was Kylo done right, I mean edgelord as fuck but still somewhat threatening. It had great SW music and a great saber fight. Its casino planet (pod racing!) was utter dogshit but at least it fit slightly better.

Essentially nothing in this movie was good. Luke being blown up by AT-AT's was probably the best bit?


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Reply #658 on: March 22, 2018, 03:27:14 AM

You can rip all of these movies apart on story grounds, on characterization, on consistency, on what goes unexplained, etc., if you're so inclined. The question is, what inclines you? If you're someone who has liked some of these (rather than a person who hates all of them), I think Last Jedi rankles for reasons that are deeper than simple critique of story etc.

What inclines me is that we know that Disney is capable of doing big blockbuster movies that also have some soul to them. That's not to say everything they do is great, but they have a pretty good track record with the MCU movies despite having to crank out three a year now. Disney's general quality is one of the few bright sides to them buying up every major studio and franchise. Now maybe it's just a learning curve here, but they're about to be four movies deep into SW once Solo comes out and I'm still not seeing any indication that they've cracked the formula on how to make a good one yet. Reminding people that the original movies had major flaws also doesn't somehow make the new ones better.
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Reply #659 on: March 22, 2018, 04:16:54 AM

Kylo Ren just comes off as a angsty teen rather than a true villain. We're two movies in and in no way can I understand why The First Order has the power to do anything, it's run by idiots, for idiots.

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Reply #660 on: March 22, 2018, 06:40:41 AM

tFA was half a good movie.

It is absolutely fine until they reach the green planet.

Even the han solo vs cthulu bit is fine.



But I just want them to do standalone movies in the original trilogy period. R1 benefits so much from the limits the existing story put on the writers.
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Reply #661 on: March 27, 2018, 12:17:28 PM

You can rip all of these movies apart on story grounds, on characterization, on consistency, on what goes unexplained, etc., if you're so inclined. The question is, what inclines you? If you're someone who has liked some of these (rather than a person who hates all of them), I think Last Jedi rankles for reasons that are deeper than simple critique of story etc.

What inclines me is that we know that Disney is capable of doing big blockbuster movies that also have some soul to them. That's not to say everything they do is great, but they have a pretty good track record with the MCU movies despite having to crank out three a year now. Disney's general quality is one of the few bright sides to them buying up every major studio and franchise. Now maybe it's just a learning curve here, but they're about to be four movies deep into SW once Solo comes out and I'm still not seeing any indication that they've cracked the formula on how to make a good one yet. Reminding people that the original movies had major flaws also doesn't somehow make the new ones better.

I think the big difference is that the MCU has Kevin Feige. He tightly controls what happens and there have been some movies that were misfires but it was all coherent and building towards a grand story. Star Wars doesn't have that. I think if JJ had stayed on we'd be in a much different place right now because he wrote an outline for the entire trilogy but Rian Johnson reportedly chucked almost everything he had for the sequel and went his own way. If this was Marvel Kevin Feige would've said "No, you can change some stuff but the general story thread needs to go HERE. You don't kill of Thanos halfway through the movie damn it. Rewrite that shit." Say what will you will about JJ but if he'd done this movie at least it'd be more coherent.

I certainly don't envy JJ's job now. I mean, how do you follow up this movie? The intended main villain is dead. Kylo is the leader of the First Order which I don't think was ever the intention. Luke is dead. Leah has to be killed offscreen. I mean, how do you handle that? Frankly, if I were Disney I'd have told Rian Johnson to cut the scene where Luke dies. With Carrie Fisher gone they absolutely need him to still be around though I suppose he can be a Force ghost. And if I were JJ I'd have a scene where we find out that Snoke isn't stupid and he has clones or was using a Force projection in the throne room or something.

And if I were Kathleen Kennedy I'd be giving serious thought to taking a firmer hand on Star Wars before a great white gloved hand grasps me and pulls me out of my job.


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Reply #662 on: March 27, 2018, 12:24:14 PM

I'm not sure Kathleen Kennedy can take a much firmer hand without choking the shit out of someone. See the whole replacing the directors thing with the Solo movie.

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Reply #663 on: March 27, 2018, 12:58:46 PM

I'm not sure Kathleen Kennedy can take a much firmer hand without choking the shit out of someone. See the whole replacing the directors thing with the Solo movie.

She's doing decent at maintaining a thematic consistency but she's not providing a vision for the current trilogy. At all. And that's why TLJ went the way it did is she gave Rian Johnson utterly free reign.

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Reply #664 on: March 27, 2018, 01:58:53 PM

I'm not sure Kathleen Kennedy can take a much firmer hand without choking the shit out of someone. See the whole replacing the directors thing with the Solo movie.

She's doing decent at maintaining a thematic consistency but she's not providing a vision for the current trilogy. At all. And that's why TLJ went the way it did is she gave Rian Johnson utterly free reign.

I liked the movie just fine but there being absolutely no plan for the trilogy and telling her she could do whatever she wanted IS in fact a horrible way to run things.

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