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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 46122 times)
IainC
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Reply #455 on: December 30, 2017, 01:42:09 PM

Except that for some people, those three things = the movie sucked.


Who is saying it sucked in this thread? Most of the people who have seen it and who have been posting ITT enjoyed it to various extents, just with a bunch of caveats.

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Reply #456 on: December 30, 2017, 02:07:36 PM

As I've said, I enjoyed it while watching it despite multiple story decisions taking me completely out of the immersion, but further analysis has weakened it further. I'm still not of the mind that "THIS SUCKS AND IS THE GREATEST INJUSTICE TO THE FRANCHISE OF ALL TIME" like somehow the prequels don't exist.

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Reply #457 on: December 30, 2017, 02:45:33 PM

Saw it last night.  Almost walked out multiple times.  Wow what a horrifyingly bad pile of shit this movie is.  JJ Abrams is the worlds biggest asshole.

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Reply #458 on: December 30, 2017, 03:08:40 PM

There it is!
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Reply #459 on: December 30, 2017, 03:17:09 PM

JJ Abrams is the worlds biggest asshole.

Why? He didn't direct it.

And I thought it was rather mediocre, 5/10 for me.

Doesn't live up to the hype [if anything does anymore], is good for the generic sci-fi fan I suppose but for people who know the Star Wars Universe, its a fairly damp squib and immersion breaking.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 03:22:39 PM by Meester »
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Reply #460 on: December 30, 2017, 05:05:22 PM

The movie sucked.

To be fair the best Star Wars movie in the entire franchise registered at a solid "meh" to me (one of the original trilogy, I forget which), so I'm clearly just not the target for the movies. Star Wars is probably the most over-hyped franchise in the history of franchises.
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Reply #461 on: December 31, 2017, 04:00:05 AM

Except that for some people, those three things = the movie sucked.


Who is saying it sucked in this thread? Most of the people who have seen it and who have been posting ITT enjoyed it to various extents, just with a bunch of caveats.

I say it sucks. People need to stop holding up the prequels when people criticize this shit. They were bad movies get over it. Its the same shit you'd hear from The Amazing Spider-man fans before Amazing Spiderman 2 came out. "Come on man, its better than spider-man 3". Ok... but this is still shit and an insult to spider-man fans and no good can come from Sony making more of these except for more bad spider-man movies. Same shit different IP.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 10:45:57 AM by MediumHigh »

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Reply #462 on: December 31, 2017, 08:05:00 AM

So, there was a movie I just watched.

Yes, it was definitely a movie. 

I watched it.

....

Time for a cuppa and then never to think on it again because I'll have forgotten it.

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Reply #463 on: December 31, 2017, 10:54:46 AM

It is a TINY leap from saying one star wars movie sucked to saying they all sucked. They all suffer the exact same problems: bland, poorly written, flat characters, horrific dialogue, TERRIBLE pacing, inconsistent quality from scene to scene (not even movie to movie, that's a fucking rollercoaster) - and perhaps, most importantly of all - an inability to fucking keep to the goddamn story.

There are no rose-colored glasses more rosy than the ones used by people in their feelings for Star Wars. I don't even know how people watch the original 3 anymore. They're paced like a 1950s movie and at that point you may as well watch fucking Rashomon or Hidden Fortress because that's all it fucking is and at least they're paced better (and made a whole hell of a lot better to boot). Or don't watch either because better examples of both subgenres have been made 50 times over.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 10:58:02 AM by schild »
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Reply #464 on: January 01, 2018, 04:47:26 AM

We get it, you vape.

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Reply #465 on: January 02, 2018, 01:56:45 PM

Watched this on New Year's in 2D Imax. I enjoyed it, but my main thought at the end of the movie was "what the fuck did I just watch?". Definitely a better movie than TFA. I'm with the people who have been criticising it.

My main views:
- Movie meandered and pacing was inconsistent
- Loved that he was willing to take on the nature of the force (I'm a massive KOTOR 2 fan), but it could've been executed better
- I enjoyed the tropes that were subverted
- Still plenty of hamfisted moments and McGuffins
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Reply #466 on: January 02, 2018, 03:53:13 PM

I really loved the movie. There are problems with it but none I felt were serious enough for me to not enjoy it.
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Reply #467 on: January 02, 2018, 06:26:40 PM

 Thumbs up!
Hoax
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Reply #468 on: January 04, 2018, 07:46:49 AM

I haven't read pages 6-14 yet but I saw this finally last night because it is doing really really well and I couldn't get imax 3d tickets where I wanted them when I wanted them until this week which is a first for any movie.

Was this good? Nope.

Was this better than TFA? Obviously.

Was this better than Phantom Menace? Its so close anyone gushing over this should be ashamed of themselves.


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Reply #469 on: January 04, 2018, 10:16:15 AM

To be fair, in this movie especially, both sides really are monumentally dumb.

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Reply #470 on: January 04, 2018, 11:02:57 AM

There are obvious ways that they could have explained why no-one ever does that, in fairness though they would likely have been Checkov's gun style conversations earlier or painfully unnecessary dialogue when she was gearing up to do it. Something, something equal chances of a galaxy ending explosion or it's 50/50 the collided object takes damage but the ship going into hyperdrive is annihilated, etc. None of the problems with it are technical but it does introduce an obvious tactic that's never been tried before without much reason as to why it's not been done before.

It did look really badass though, I wish they'd been able to think of some other way of accomplishing that.

I think the whole plot with Kylo Ren is a quest for self-fulfillment. He turned on Skywalker because he felt he'd failed and been rejected. He felt Luke saw him as a weak and he was determined to prove that his 'falling' to the Dark Side was a strength. At the same time he hates the evil things he does and obviously isn't happy so he's no more fulfilled or at peace as Snoke's apprentice. It's kind of the typical anime hero journey just instead of finding it hard to do the right thing or feeling guilty about not saving someone or being scared, he feels guilty because feels bad that he murdered his dad or because he found it hard to be super evil. It's an interesting concept in a villain but
1) they really needed to do a better job setting him as actually menacing by the end of this and
2) Whiny anime heroes suck, why would you make more?

I can imagine an ending here where Kylo Ren has rejected Vader's legacy, taken control of the First Order and actually struck a blow against the Resistance that would echo ESB while being subtly different. Instead I think they went for an upbeat ending that required Kylo Ren continue to look like a chump and the FO continue to look like sadistic idiots. Having a small core leave and the majority of soldiers remain to fight a rearguard, and they get taken apart by Ren might have worked to actually make it seem like he'd had some kind of character growth. Instead the Resistance gets out of their valiant last stand without further sacrifices.

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Reply #471 on: January 04, 2018, 11:38:14 AM

So, in WWII naval combat, you could do some serious damage if you'd driven a battleship into another battleship. Even accidental collisions caused (and still cause) serious damage. A battleship normally takes a full crew, but you'd only need a handful of sailors to execute a collision. Why wasn't that a frequently employed tactic, then?

a) Because you lose a battleship that way! Sacrificing one asset to take out an equivalent asset is normally not a great tactic unless you either have tons and tons of such assets to spare compared to your enemies (and if so, why waste one that way? Just pound them conventionally) or unless the enemy ship is the absolutely pivotal ship--say, the entire enemy command and political leadership is on board, which is an extraordinarily rare situation in a military confrontation. A force that has very few such assets absolutely cannot afford to be doing this kind of thing regularly.
b) Because it takes a while to set up for ramming and if the tactic were normal, the enemy would respond by concentrating fire on the ramming vessel and/or evading it. It only works once, as a surprise, or because the enemy must concentrate fire on something else.
c) Because in general, militaries don't consciously use suicidal tactics. Sure, commanders send forces into situations where they expect high casualties or are planning to win through attrition, which is a kind of unacknowledged use of suicidal tactics, but it's a different matter to consciously ask soldiers and leaders to die carrying out a suicide attack. Militaries that not conscript forces especially don't do this sort of thing very often. Individuals may choose to give their lives for others in desperate situations, but that's very different than methodically planning that as an approach.

I have no problem following this reasoning to understand why the Rebellion/Resistance/Republic simply don't do this as a matter of course on a regular basis, even at the level of building large uncrewed capital vessels as hyperdrive kamikazes. They don't have the assets to do it--they're still tooling around in shit they had sixty years ago, more or less. It's antithetical to their values. I think you could ask why the Empire/First Order doesn't do it more often, because they seem to have Star Destroyers to spare. I think there it's the pro-military fascism that both have exhibited--it's one thing to lose a ship to enemy fire and another to suicide it on purpose just to blow up the other guys.

Now you might wonder why not do it with small unmanned vessels--something a bit closer to what has happened in human warfare more often--and the answer is that the Rebellion/Resistance does just that. We've seen that regularly--pilots of small fighters that are going to die often try to crash into a weapon or command center on a large craft to cause damage. And it works fairly often, enough that you have to wonder why the Empire/First Order doesn't build a new generation of smaller, faster capital ships built around defending from wave attacks by small fighters. There I really think you have to look at what we know about this universe--and one thing we know is that it is technologically stagnant, for whatever reasons. Folks just don't think about fundamentally new technologies. Even planet killers seem like an old idea in the SW universe. Maybe that seems stupid to you, but in an odd way I think it's an interesting proposition--a galactic civilization that has reached a kind of peak technology and isn't trying to fiddle with it much. I also think there's likely to be some kind of galactic consensus about purely droid-crewed vessels following the Clone Wars, though we haven't really seen the sort of deeply anti-droid attitude you think that would imply. (The First Order seems to be allowing droids a bit more autonomy, following on the example of the Resistance/Rebellion, who've clearly always given droids a lot of room to do as they will.)

I think if you're looking for dumb things here, it's:

Why bring your Supreme Leader into a potentially dangerous military situation? (Answer: I guess because he's an arrogant, entitled doofus and he said to bring him.)
Why not recognize what Holdo was doing with the cruiser? (Answer: they do realize it, only too late, because they've got tunnel vision and are focusing on killing the transports.)
Why not peel off the other capital ships to distract the pursuers earlier? (Answer: yeah, this part is genuinely stupid, they should have split the fleet five ways the moment they realized what was going on.)
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Reply #472 on: January 04, 2018, 12:27:38 PM

All of those concerns mostly go away if you substitute 'big space rock with a hyperdrive and some basic manoeuvring engines' for 'sacrificial battleship'. We don't ram battleships into enemy battleships, but we do fly things into them deliberately. They look like this



Even in pre-20th century naval warfare, the concept of fireships was a well-tried and rightly feared tactic that was mostly limited by the logistics of getting derelict hulls to where the enemy fleet was - which isn't an issue with science fiction tech.

If the enemy wants to concentrate fire on your wave of weaponised spacerocks, then that's a win too because it means they aren't firing at your crewed ships that are designed to engage multiple times instead of only once.

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Reply #473 on: January 04, 2018, 02:41:59 PM

There is an entire shot in the movie dedicated to explaining why this is an uncommon tactic. Jesus Christ.
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Reply #474 on: January 04, 2018, 03:58:11 PM

There is an entire shot in the movie dedicated to explaining why this is an uncommon tactic. Jesus Christ.
Elaborate - what did I miss?

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Reply #475 on: January 04, 2018, 05:43:00 PM

There is an entire shot in the movie dedicated to explaining why this is an uncommon tactic. Jesus Christ.
Elaborate - what did I miss?

“Sir the cruiser is preparing to jump to light speed”

“Hux: Ignore it, it’s a diversion, it’s empty”

IE had they been considering it they would have blown it away before it could have jumped
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Reply #476 on: January 04, 2018, 07:13:47 PM

See, I just interpreted that as more shitty writing.  The ship is going to escape, ignore it because its empty.  Makes sense, lets  not even consider the possibility of being rammed, because thats impossible..  Then Hux was just as surprised as we were when they rammed him at light speed.  "WTF, this is Star Wars, you cant do that!"

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Reply #477 on: January 04, 2018, 07:47:23 PM

It gives you precisely enough information to determine why it worked and why it’s not common. You really don’t need more. And wanting more makes me wonder if you had ever seen another Star Wars movie.
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Reply #478 on: January 04, 2018, 08:02:21 PM

So, fire ships were only something you could use in highly specific circumstances, first off. You had to have hulks or decomissioned ships to spare, you had to be in a harbor action, not in the open seas, etc.

And ramming is something some naval combat used--but a ramming vessel was a specific thing. You didn't do it with most combat vessels, and it was an expensive tactic to be used sparingly in any event. At some speeds or wind conditions, it's not possible in either sail or rowing warfare.

This is all pretty easily solved if they say, "only a ship of a specific tonnage (that is otherwise way more valuable) could do this, only if it's not fired upon, only if the target vessel is not paying attention to the risk, and we're not the types to commit suicide normally". But there's something kind of stupid about insisting that you hate the scene, which is visually impressive and kind of amazing, unless someone infodumps all of that for you. I continue to insist that if you're that kind of audience, you should be asking why the fuck the Empire builds giant Star Destroyers anyway or why Stormtroopers wear armor in the first place, etc. etc.--very little about the SW universe makes sense in that way.
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Reply #479 on: January 04, 2018, 08:05:00 PM

Ok, I've determined that apparently nobody is actually reading any posts in this thread.

I did not ask for more of an explanation (which is good, because despite what you say, that scene gave zero information).  Nobody has.  Is it really hard not to understand that doing something that breaks all scientific continuity of all the previous content is annoying?  It was only a minor thing to me overall in the movie, but still highlighted how little they seem to care about the material.  It was just as content breaking and lazy a way out of a conflict as the magic teleporter in Star Trek, which also broke most of the established rules of the IP.  

Physics don't belong in Star Wars or everything falls apart.  Have you watched any previous Star Wars films?  Because they all revolve around physics not actually being a thing in the universe.

This shit is literally midichlorians.  Nobody liked midichlorians either.

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Goumindong
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Reply #480 on: January 04, 2018, 09:14:58 PM

It does not break any “scientific continuity” in the series.

Such an attack is expensive and prone to failure.
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Reply #481 on: January 04, 2018, 09:15:47 PM

Of all the things to be upset about in that movie, the very impressive looking scene of the lightspeed suicide run is the least of them. I was fine with it. I thought it was dumb that the younger leader did it instead of Leia since Leia looked half dead anyway and probably was considering her trip to Mary Poppins land.

They made a lot of odd story choices that either didn't make sense, didn't make sense in the Star Wars movie or were poorly executed or explained.

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Reply #482 on: January 04, 2018, 09:35:42 PM

Ok, I've determined that apparently nobody is actually reading any posts in this thread.

I did not ask for more of an explanation (which is good, because despite what you say, that scene gave zero information).  Nobody has.  Is it really hard not to understand that doing something that breaks all scientific continuity of all the previous content is annoying?  It was only a minor thing to me overall in the movie, but still highlighted how little they seem to care about the material.  It was just as content breaking and lazy a way out of a conflict as the magic teleporter in Star Trek, which also broke most of the established rules of the IP.  

Physics don't belong in Star Wars or everything falls apart.  Have you watched any previous Star Wars films?  Because they all revolve around physics not actually being a thing in the universe.

This shit is literally midichlorians.  Nobody liked midichlorians either.

We're reading. We disagree. Arguing that you have unimpeachable evidence on imaginary Star Wars physics based on seven previous movies and some animated show stuff and don't understand how anybody could possibly think otherwise is just kind of weird, that's all. It's pretty clear that many people who have seen as much Star Wars as you liked the movie and the scene and had no difficulty understanding its in-canon plausibility. This is not a thing that is going to be resolved on "I care about the material, you other people don't". It just isn't. This is pretty much "in matters of taste, there is no dispute". I am interested in how strongly people feel about this film both yay and nay. I'm not entirely sure what that means. I do not argue that people who feel differently than me don't know Star Wars like I know Star Wars or whatever. The different reactions are coming from somewhere deeper in how people watch movies--and how they watch Star Wars.
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Reply #483 on: January 04, 2018, 09:41:04 PM

Yuck on second thought I'm not going to read 8 pages of people pretending this movie wasn't mediocre at best.

Cmon if that is a valid attempt at suicide why wouldn't the medical cruiser or the other ship have done that before they ran out of fuel? are you kidding me? not only that but I believe from the shot her suicide hyperdrive thing not only ripped the omega ship in half but also took out 2-3 star destroyers? are you serious?

the defense of that is so bad. its soooooo flimsy.

If she had the option to do that why wait so fucking long to execute that plan?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 10:28:56 PM by Hoax »

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HaemishM
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Reply #484 on: January 04, 2018, 09:57:50 PM

It made more sense than Rose saving Finn.  why so serious?

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Reply #485 on: January 04, 2018, 10:12:59 PM

Also, should have been Admiral Akbar instead of Admiral no name red shirt.

Then when Hux realizes whats about to happen, he could yell out "Its a trap!"

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Reply #486 on: January 05, 2018, 03:28:47 AM

It gives you precisely enough information to determine why it worked and why it’s not common. You really don’t need more. And wanting more makes me wonder if you had ever seen another Star Wars movie.
I interpreted that scene exactly the same way that Teleku did. Trying to pretend that it explains why hyperspace bullets aren't a thing is reaching hard.

They thought the (empty) 'escaping' cruiser was a diversion to draw them away from the (not empty) escaping transports. Which is why they didn't divert any firepower to destroy it.

Given that it's clearly a massively effective tactic, you have to wonder why it doesn't happen more often. And no, again not with expensive combat ships, but with disposable one-use vessels (like our friend Mr Tomahawk or our in-universe analogue, Mr Spacerock with rudimentary engines strapped to it).

There's a point where the audience can see the effectiveness of a tactic and wonder why it isn't either used or defended against. For example, it's clear that swarms of small, heavily armed fighters can ruin the day of a much larger capital ship. The in-universe answer to this is to have defending swarms of fighters. That makes sense. From a tactical perspective, the best solution would be to have something like a perimeter of destroyer-class ships around any valuable fleet, but the space battles are cool and iconic so it's fine that they go back to X-Wing vs TIE dogfights. The hyperspace bullet as a thing that no-one has ever tried before makes no sense. Holdo thought it would do *something* even if she didn't appreciate just how devastating it was. There are plenty of prior movie scenes where collisions between ships manoeuvring *slowly* are catastrophic, you don't need to be a rocket surgeon to realise that adding more v in the p=mv equation is going to have a linearly increasing effect.

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Reply #487 on: January 05, 2018, 04:46:18 AM

It's annoying to me because, while it was a very cool scene, it seems possible to explain why it isn't a common tactic (though not easy to do it well). Instead we're left arguing plausible reasons on the internet. It isn't anywhere the worst bit of the movie, it was fucking cool, but it also feel symptomatic of the desire to put a cool scene in without feeling a need for it to fit with Star Wars or even make a lot of sense by itself. I also felt like they missed a few points because they were trying so hard to escape the TFA issue of following all the movie beats from ANH. The 'happy' ending that they got robbed Ren and the FO of any real menace. Had they ended with a more substantial victory rather than getting punked by a Jedi Ghost we'd be left with more of a feeling that losing Snoke hasn't left them bumbling idiots. As it is Ren finishes up just as whiny as he did at the start. Him successfully leading an attack and butchering a fortress full of Resistance fighters would have left him seeming like someone who had taken a definite turn.

Finn and Rose: I read that scene as him about to just get vaporised by a laser beam for no reason and she crashed into him, which made sense. How she managed to get ahead of him and swing in from the side when he was near the front and going full speed in a  straight line is another question.

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Reply #488 on: January 05, 2018, 07:23:15 AM

How she managed to get ahead of him and swing in from the side when he was near the front and going full speed in a  straight line is another question.

That bit didn't bother me too much. They talk about how janky all the speeders are when they get into them, I just assumed that some were faster than others because their engines were in better condition or they didn't have the same stability problems or something.

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Reply #489 on: January 05, 2018, 08:16:44 AM

Also, the rest of them pulled up while he had the drag from his ski.

Also, the movie was just pus riddled shit and I'm too old for Star Wars now.

Far too fucking old.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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