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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 4854 times)
Kail
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Reply #70 on: January 30, 2017, 03:33:17 AM

The problem with Anakin wasn't his attachment, it was that he was constantly being forced to bury it and let go of it. 

Except
a) if he wasn't attached, that wouldn't be an issue in the first place, and
b) he didn't turn to the dark side in order to cover up his relationship or to help deal with his emotions, he turned because he thought Padme was dying, and Sith can rez.  It wasn't his desire to keep his secret or his frustration at not being able to have a nice wedding or anything, it was explicitly spelled out as his attachment to Padme being used to manipulate him.  She's dying, you would do anything for her, even some things that the stuffy Jedi might consider wrong, wouldn't you?  Like murdering children?  Ushering in a totalitarian order of fear and genocide?  No, no, your judgement isn't clouded at all, it's those darn Jedi who are all at fault for stupidly trying to stop you from taking this path that would lead to you killing all of them.
eldaec
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Reply #71 on: January 30, 2017, 04:10:13 AM

If they aren't meant to have attachment, who cares what happens to other people or the republic?

It's only point is a 'loyalty to Jedi above others' thing, or simply meaningless nonsense.

The implication is clearly that loyalty should be to maintaining peace and harmony - and that personal attachment, rather than commitment to your role.

Also, young protagonist feeling that being taught discipline was all a method of unnecessary  control isn't exactly a new or revolutionary story element.

Fwiw I thought MacGregor did a good job of emoting how he managed personal attachment to QuiGon and Anakin.

A better writer would have found an exciting way to explore how the rigidity of the system contributed to its downfall and how Yoda or ObiWan failed to learn from Anakin. Instead it was just simplified to discipline good, sexy time evil. But hey, George Lucas. It was important to get that 8 lightsabre fight with Grevious in there and see yoda hurling lightning bolts at Dracula instead,  despite those action sequences having no thematic connection to the story arc or developmemt of the  protagonists.

One thing I completely disagree with is the idea that Star Wars always must be completely black and white goodies and baddies. It is chock full of opportunities for young protagonists to spend time working out what is the right path and bad shit happens all the damn time as a result of good intentions. The macro conflict between rebels and the empire is usefully presented as good vs evil because it leaves the writer time to keep the conflict and grey areas in the story at the character level.

 What it needs is good writing.

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MediumHigh
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Reply #72 on: January 30, 2017, 07:37:57 AM

Yoda never used forced lightning.
Gray jedi are stupid.
We have morally gray characters, everyone else.
The Jedi lost because the Sith planned better.

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HaemishM
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Reply #73 on: January 30, 2017, 08:23:10 AM

It's only point is a 'loyalty to Jedi above others' thing, or simply meaningless nonsense.

It's the second one.  why so serious?

Cyrrex
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Reply #74 on: January 30, 2017, 08:49:35 AM

The problem with Anakin wasn't his attachment, it was that he was constantly being forced to bury it and let go of it. 

Except
a) if he wasn't attached, that wouldn't be an issue in the first place, and
b) he didn't turn to the dark side in order to cover up his relationship or to help deal with his emotions, he turned because he thought Padme was dying, and Sith can rez.  It wasn't his desire to keep his secret or his frustration at not being able to have a nice wedding or anything, it was explicitly spelled out as his attachment to Padme being used to manipulate him.  She's dying, you would do anything for her, even some things that the stuffy Jedi might consider wrong, wouldn't you?  Like murdering children?  Ushering in a totalitarian order of fear and genocide?  No, no, your judgement isn't clouded at all, it's those darn Jedi who are all at fault for stupidly trying to stop you from taking this path that would lead to you killing all of them.

Nuh uh.  Palpatine could manipulate him specifically because he knew Anakin could not turn to the Jedi for help.  The novelisation of RotS is a bit clearer about how Anakin wanted to use the archives to help search for answers.  Wasn't there also a scene in the film where Anakin is sitting across from Yoda and basically can't tell him shit and Yoda gives him the typical rote bullshit?  I might be mis-remembering this last bit, or maybe it, too, came from the novel.  And again, Obi could have totally helped Anakin, if only he dared openly recognize the issue in the first place.

Lucas did a shit job with the prequels, but there was a little more subtlety there than most of you give him credit for.  It is almost as if your...anger...has clouded your vision.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #75 on: January 30, 2017, 01:16:02 PM

It's like poetry.

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lamaros
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Reply #76 on: January 30, 2017, 04:45:01 PM

It's only point is a 'loyalty to Jedi above others' thing, or simply meaningless nonsense.

It's the second one.  why so serious?

Shh, I'm only allowed in here if I keep the disdain low key...

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TheWalrus
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Reply #77 on: January 30, 2017, 05:44:52 PM

Killing the little jedi kids was a full on Bioware moment. It was one of those places in their games where your only dark side option is to be full on evil dick. Terrible.

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Malakili
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Reply #78 on: January 31, 2017, 03:49:55 AM

Honestly, the stupid part is the dying in childbirth plotline in general. Just make it so Palpatine has her kidnapped and then lures him to the dark side for the power to kill a whole fortress of dudes that are guarding here. Then we even get a payoff scene where he fights 200 dudes with force lightning or something instead of killing a bunch of kids for no reason.  Maybe he can even accidentally kill Padme for real instead of the Emperor just telling him he did. You can then have Obi Wan show up and fight him and the whole thing.

TheWalrus
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Reply #79 on: January 31, 2017, 01:23:55 PM

Lookit that. Better plotline. 3 minutes of thought. SAD.

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Reply #80 on: January 31, 2017, 01:56:00 PM

I dunno. Killing a bunch of kids training to be future Jedi is a pretty big leap into pure dark side. Whether you agree with it or not, it hits the point home of just how far Skywalker was down the well and into the pocket of Palpatine. Can't get much deeper or darker. Yeah you could have done the whole kidnapping, but then it's just Skywalker killing kinda-bad guys under the fallen hero shroud (similar to smiting all the Sandpeople). Killing Jedi kids is a whole world darker and makes the point of just how evil Skywalker could reach.

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TheWalrus
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Reply #81 on: January 31, 2017, 02:00:23 PM

It is darker, but it doesn't fit with what he was doing previously. It was excessive for his point in evilness.

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HaemishM
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Reply #82 on: January 31, 2017, 02:31:46 PM

It is darker, but it doesn't fit with what he was doing previously. It was excessive for his point in evilness.

This. It was completely out of nowhere in the movie and made no sense to what had gone before. Hell, even the betrayal of Mace Windu didn't make any sense in the context of what we'd been shown in any of the prequel movies.

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Reply #83 on: January 31, 2017, 02:44:47 PM

But... DARKER!  Therefore better.    awesome, for real

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Khaldun
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Reply #84 on: January 31, 2017, 02:49:26 PM

You can see a version of the movies where Anakin's turn to the Dark Side includes killing the younglings, but it needs way way more development. He just goes from being a whiny teenager worried about his girlfriend to killing kids in ten minutes.
Shannow
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Reply #85 on: April 14, 2017, 09:08:02 AM

Not sure if there's a separate video yet but if you watch the Star Wars Live stream you can see the new trailer.

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Lucas
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Reply #86 on: April 14, 2017, 09:08:32 AM

HOLY POSTER BATMAN...this is amazing, IMO (official "The Last Jedi" poster". Full size here):




Teaser trailer (not as interesting as the teaser for Ep VII, but I'm sure we'll get a good full trailer in a few months):

https://youtu.be/zB4I68XVPzQ
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 09:14:58 AM by Lucas »

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Shannow
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Reply #87 on: April 14, 2017, 09:16:11 AM

Trailer is definitely a teaser. Love the poster.

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Khaldun
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Reply #88 on: April 14, 2017, 09:55:53 AM

I'm getting the feeling that they're going to embrace the whole "Jedi Order was flawed and had too narrow a vision of the Force" interpretation. I'm totally good with that.
Zetor
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Reply #89 on: April 14, 2017, 10:03:51 AM

Kreia Was Right: The Movie?  awesome, for real

Soln
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Reply #90 on: April 14, 2017, 10:15:43 AM

I approve.  Giggitty.
Draegan
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Reply #91 on: April 14, 2017, 11:05:17 AM

Major grey Jedi hints there.

Love that poster, I want one.
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Reply #92 on: April 14, 2017, 11:22:55 AM

Loved the teaser so much. Force balance, Luke a recluse studying from ancient tomes.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #93 on: April 14, 2017, 12:32:18 PM

I really dislike the grey Jedi stuff but we'll see how they handle it. I think my dislike comes from writers and role players who want Grey Jedi to basically just be a Jedi who can use Force Lightning and get away with it. If they make it more of an Eastern thing it could be interesting.

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kaid
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Reply #94 on: April 14, 2017, 02:22:26 PM

I'm getting the feeling that they're going to embrace the whole "Jedi Order was flawed and had too narrow a vision of the Force" interpretation. I'm totally good with that.


Yup it looks like they are going for the unified force path. Where both the jedi and sith going at things in an unbalanced way which keeps causing the traumatic back and forth between force users. I am guessing luke is going there is no light side nor is there a dark side there is just the force.
TheWalrus
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Reply #95 on: April 14, 2017, 02:34:36 PM

I really dislike the grey Jedi stuff but we'll see how they handle it. I think my dislike comes from writers and role players who want Grey Jedi to basically just be a Jedi who can use Force Lightning and get away with it. If they make it more of an Eastern thing it could be interesting.

I like the Jolee path. "Fuck you, I have feelings." That was great writing.

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Reply #96 on: April 14, 2017, 04:42:20 PM

Is that Kylo Ren on the right?

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Khaldun
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Reply #97 on: April 14, 2017, 04:50:50 PM

Right, Grey Jedi is also dumb in a way because it says as noted, "Don't worry you can be a badass and still be 'good' kind of".

If it's "accept what life is telling you, evolve and grow as you must, be what you are meant to be", there's a lot of story-telling goodness as well as ethical wisdom in there. "Be open to life around you, learn from how life grows and suffers and wants": ah yss. That's basically spaghetti Westerns replacing the old white-hat/black-hat Westerns and it's good.
Lucas
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Reply #98 on: April 14, 2017, 04:53:55 PM

Is that Kylo Ren on the right?

You know, it's funny because, no matter she's below, the hair (and hairstyle) of the face on the right is definitely different, at first sight I kinda assumed that was Rey's face.
-------------

Oh, and guys, do yourself a favour and, if you can, watch Mark Hamill's tribute to Carrie Fisher. It's a 1 hour long conversation (he's alone talking to the audience), where yes, there are anecdotes and stuff like that but the way he talks about her, his
spontaneity, gentleness just shine through and you can't suddenly avoid watching the segment in its entirety. Starts at the 3:03:15 mark:

https://youtu.be/xgxO6mQI9k0

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Shannow
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Reply #99 on: April 14, 2017, 05:05:41 PM

Plus they showed this tribute at Star Wars live . Sad and awesome all at once.

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Reply #100 on: April 14, 2017, 05:13:15 PM

I..dunno. You could swap nearly every scene shown with one from TESB. We already got one remake that worked because of the actors and characters, I'd like to see a new movie plot this time!


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Reply #101 on: April 14, 2017, 05:38:02 PM

When did we get a remake that worked? TFA was dogshit

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Ruvaldt
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Reply #102 on: April 14, 2017, 09:58:53 PM

TFA was a lot of fun. 

I don't have any inclination to watch it again, but that doesn't make it a bad movie.  And that definitely doesn't make it dog shit.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #103 on: April 14, 2017, 10:31:23 PM

I..dunno. You could swap nearly every scene shown with one from TESB. We already got one remake that worked because of the actors and characters, I'd like to see a new movie plot this time!


wait, what?

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Reply #104 on: April 15, 2017, 09:18:54 AM

Since Rey is training that means in a remake and dogshit. Might as well slit your wrists now.
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