Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 04:44:22 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  Topic: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 [21] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR  (Read 213714 times)
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #700 on: April 20, 2021, 04:37:09 PM

Finally got around to re-installing Skyrim, and had to use a couple days fiddling with the mods to get it working how I want.  Was having all kinds of issues with the Script Extender, the perk mods, etc.  Also found a new basic mod list which really made the graphics looks nice, much better than what I had before.  As much as I like Fallout when it is running properly, I gotta say this game is #2 next to Alyx.

what mod list did you use? Last time I tried to start up Skyrim (flat screen) I decided to go whole hog and see what my 2080 could do with it, but only made it halfway through the STEP list before running tiring of the mod game.

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603


Reply #701 on: April 21, 2021, 12:12:45 AM

Finally got around to re-installing Skyrim, and had to use a couple days fiddling with the mods to get it working how I want.  Was having all kinds of issues with the Script Extender, the perk mods, etc.  Also found a new basic mod list which really made the graphics looks nice, much better than what I had before.  As much as I like Fallout when it is running properly, I gotta say this game is #2 next to Alyx.

what mod list did you use? Last time I tried to start up Skyrim (flat screen) I decided to go whole hog and see what my 2080 could do with it, but only made it halfway through the STEP list before running tiring of the mod game.

What you mod for VR and what you mod for Pancake are two different things, so my mod list probably wouldn't help you.  It is mostly just the base game with graphical, lighting, physics and UI mods, stuff like that.  Beyond that it is probably just improved spells/skills and whatever (plus....lightsabers).  The vanilla game is pretty compelling in VR once you get it looking right and get the physics tweaked.  I have on occasion added improved dragons, tougher random mobs, that sort of thing, but didn't find it necessary to the enjoyment.  So the list is probably only 20 or fewer things.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #702 on: May 11, 2021, 12:32:36 PM

Looks like HTC is going to be taking a step back from consumer VR as a focus: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/05/htcs-newest-headsets-signal-end-of-vives-5-year-vr-for-the-home-mission/

Bummer. At this point it's just Valve? (Oculus is not an option for me for reasons)
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23612


Reply #703 on: May 11, 2021, 12:37:05 PM

And Sony awesome, for real
Velorath
Contributor
Posts: 8980


Reply #704 on: May 11, 2021, 01:09:17 PM

I mean, some of the Sony stuff, if true, sounds kinda interesting.
Falconeer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11124

a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer born and living in the wrong country


WWW
Reply #705 on: May 11, 2021, 02:01:52 PM

HP Reverb G2 seems to be great.

Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15157


Reply #706 on: May 11, 2021, 07:59:56 PM

I get so frustrated with all of this. The problem is not first and foremost with the tech, though that's a challenge. It's a representational problem. They need a film critic or a literary critic if they really want to move onto a next next generation.

It does not matter how great the tech is about immersing me in a fully surrounding environment and about attaching haptics to me to model my actions in a naturalistic way. Most of the things most of us want to play are not naturalistic. You want a next-gen VR beyond the current standard that lets me take a realistic walk in the woods in a woods I've never been in? We're almost there. You want a game that lets me be a badass warrior in the Elder Scrolls world or a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic? You cannot do it without making a decision that is not about the technology for representing the graphical environment. You have to decide how to amplify my movements and actions in a way that feels both natural to what I did when I moved and yet is vastly beyond what I did and doesn't make me feel sick in the process. If you take the Jedi example, I literally have to feel as if I can jump ten feet when I only jump half a foot, as if I can run faster than Usain Bolt when I'm just running in place, etc. Otherwise I'm just an old guy with a helmet on. But if you are feeding me a 360 environmental simulation in which I jump ten feet and run fifty feet for the least movements in both, motion sickness is inevitable for most people.

Nobody has a solution for it. I think even if you were in a ST: TNG Holodeck, you'd feel it, unless the Holodeck had some way of interacting with the brain itself to reconcile the illusion with the body's cognitive awareness of its movements, etc., or if the Holodeck strictly limited its users to what they were physically capable of doing in the real world (there's some evidence for that in the show--we've never seen anyone pretending to be a superhero, a Jedi Knight, etc., in the Holodeck.)
SurfD
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4035


Reply #707 on: May 11, 2021, 09:07:38 PM

so, what you are saying is that what we really need is something like the "full body interaction rig" from Ready Player 1.  A combination of the omni directional treadmill + a body harness that can mimic low intensity wire work lifts to allow you to simulate the ability to run at high speeds or do exaggerated leaps and the like.  Cause the only other alternative would be some kind of direct neural interface that can actually "fool" your body into believing those things are happening by feeding it false inputs, and I am pretty sure we are much closer to the first option than the second right now.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603


Reply #708 on: May 11, 2021, 11:34:54 PM

I get so frustrated with all of this. The problem is not first and foremost with the tech, though that's a challenge. It's a representational problem. They need a film critic or a literary critic if they really want to move onto a next next generation.

It does not matter how great the tech is about immersing me in a fully surrounding environment and about attaching haptics to me to model my actions in a naturalistic way. Most of the things most of us want to play are not naturalistic. You want a next-gen VR beyond the current standard that lets me take a realistic walk in the woods in a woods I've never been in? We're almost there. You want a game that lets me be a badass warrior in the Elder Scrolls world or a Jedi Knight in the Old Republic? You cannot do it without making a decision that is not about the technology for representing the graphical environment. You have to decide how to amplify my movements and actions in a way that feels both natural to what I did when I moved and yet is vastly beyond what I did and doesn't make me feel sick in the process. If you take the Jedi example, I literally have to feel as if I can jump ten feet when I only jump half a foot, as if I can run faster than Usain Bolt when I'm just running in place, etc. Otherwise I'm just an old guy with a helmet on. But if you are feeding me a 360 environmental simulation in which I jump ten feet and run fifty feet for the least movements in both, motion sickness is inevitable for most people.

Nobody has a solution for it. I think even if you were in a ST: TNG Holodeck, you'd feel it, unless the Holodeck had some way of interacting with the brain itself to reconcile the illusion with the body's cognitive awareness of its movements, etc., or if the Holodeck strictly limited its users to what they were physically capable of doing in the real world (there's some evidence for that in the show--we've never seen anyone pretending to be a superhero, a Jedi Knight, etc., in the Holodeck.)

There are several things in this post I disagree with, but I think they mostly come down to your thoughts about motion sickness.  In my experience, there are three kinds of people in this regard:

A. Those who immediately and significantly have a negative reaction.  Like, real bad.
B. Those who experience moderate nausea if exposed for an extended period of motion
C. Those who have zero reaction and don't even understand the concept

The massive, unfixable reactions of group A are easily the least common.  I have seen one person react this way in real life, and even then she could mitigate it a bit with motion sickness pills and avoiding certain types of games.  Most "older" people like us seem to fall into category B.  Myself included.  These people will within time essentially completely adapt to it and more or less never experience it again, or at least not severe enough to be an impediment.  Younger people seem to all fit into C.  Their brains pick it up instantly, and they mock the very idea of becoming sick.

There are of course other factors involved, starting with the framerate actually being up to speed, the tracking being perfect and the programming of the game itself.  But the idea that most people have crippling motion sickness from VR is just way off.  It is the exception, not the rule.  That it is people in our relative age group that seem to be most often making this complaint should probably give you a clue as to what is going on.

Also, Elder Scrolls already does exactly those things you seem to imply are not possible, unless I miss your point.  A Jedi game would be 110% possible and amazing if anyone bothered to give it a real effort.  Hell, Skyrim gets you halfway there already.

The one somewhat unsolvable thing at this point is physical jumping translating into VR jumping.  But the problem is not what you might expect it to be, and it is also absolutely no big deal.  Button press jumping works just fine, and I don't think I would want another solution that doesn't involve a whole-body rig.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #709 on: May 24, 2021, 01:11:33 PM

Have you checked out No Mans Sky in VR? They added DLSS which could really help resolution-challenged hardware.
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603


Reply #710 on: May 24, 2021, 10:52:37 PM

Yeah, it is quite good in VR...although it tends to run fairly poorly in relation to how it looks.  Some DLSS sounds like a potential improvement, I might have to re-install it just to see how it looks.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #711 on: May 25, 2021, 10:23:11 AM


A. Those who immediately and significantly have a negative reaction.  Like, real bad.
B. Those who experience moderate nausea if exposed for an extended period of motion
C. Those who have zero reaction and don't even understand the concept

The massive, unfixable reactions of group A are easily the least common.  I have seen one person react this way in real life, and even then she could mitigate it a bit with motion sickness pills and avoiding certain types of games.  Most "older" people like us seem to fall into category B.  Myself included.  These people will within time essentially completely adapt to it and more or less never experience it again, or at least not severe enough to be an impediment.  Younger people seem to all fit into C.  Their brains pick it up instantly, and they mock the very idea of becoming sick.


If you want to swap confirmation-biased anectodal evidence, my teen grandson and his friend are soundly in category B, not A. They started unable to play more than half an hour without feeling sick, and now a few years later play for hours at a time. Though they are taking turns with a single headset so are still limited in how long they are immersed at a time, I do know the grandson can handle a couple hours at least now before starting to feel ill.  Or maybe it just takes that long for the existing discomfort to break through into his teen awareness.  why so serious?

But I agree that most people probably fit in category B. But some (many? most?) may never be able to handle more than limited periods at a time.  I do know I used to get queasy after a few minutes of some games with lots of movement just on a flat screen, and still do watching someone else play, but I can handle it for hours now as long I'm in control.  Yet movies, even IMax, don't bother me.  Mostly. Sideways spinning, like a spiral staircase, can get me. Some things in RL (like sideways spinning again) will get me that don't get others too though, so who knows.

As I'm getting older and less physically capable, I find I'm less and less interested in the gameplay involving running in place swinging arms wildly though, which seems to be where it's all at/going these days. meh.  A lot of that stuff just plain hurts some days.  Get off my lawn!  I want the immersive visuals without having to get out of my comfy chair or worry about knocking stuff off my desk. So full body haptics and large area position tracking are a waste of tech for me, I want higher resolution, better framerates, and accurate targeting.  I'd probably be happiest with KB&M and an intelligent AR pass-through (to see the keyboard) so the only thing being replaced by the VR is the monitors/speakers.  Doesn't seem to be what excites the cool kids though, so I'm not holding my breath.


Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #712 on: December 22, 2022, 06:18:50 PM

I would love to get me some VR, just not in the form it's being offered today. I'm sure I'm a minority, possibly so small I'll never be served, but what I want is a 3D/VR display that I can use with my M&K setup while sitting in a chair. As such, I wouldn't mind it being tethered to my PC (preferably wireless though) but it absolutely has to have pass-through capabilities to see your keyboard at the least.

I have zero interest in (and diminishing capability for) standing or dancing around waving my arms and such to play a game.  And the associated hand-held controllers suffer the same or possibly worse limitations than console controllers for many many games compared to a 101-key keyboard and multi-button mouse.  The controls issues will probably be improved over time, but the requirement for a large amount of space and large physical motions seems baked in to the current narrow "vision" of how to do these things.

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Rendakor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10131


Reply #713 on: December 22, 2022, 07:29:43 PM

I would love to get me some VR, just not in the form it's being offered today. I'm sure I'm a minority, possibly so small I'll never be served, but what I want is a 3D/VR display that I can use with my M&K setup while sitting in a chair. As such, I wouldn't mind it being tethered to my PC (preferably wireless though) but it absolutely has to have pass-through capabilities to see your keyboard at the least.

I have zero interest in (and diminishing capability for) standing or dancing around waving my arms and such to play a game.  And the associated hand-held controllers suffer the same or possibly worse limitations than console controllers for many many games compared to a 101-key keyboard and multi-button mouse.  The controls issues will probably be improved over time, but the requirement for a large amount of space and large physical motions seems baked in to the current narrow "vision" of how to do these things.
I'm largely in the same boat. I wouldn't mind a bit of the more active games, but my primary use case is going to be sitting down with a kb+m.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #714 on: December 27, 2022, 09:37:48 AM

I mostly just want the headset to play seated as well, but I also look forward to using the controllers in a 3d space from time to time. For me, the sticking point is still mostly the paucity of games available, and the general level of janky implementation across a lot of those. A grand is a lot to spend to turn my head to check my mirrors in a truck sim. Not sure I'd even want it for the two driving games I play most (Snowrunner and Wreckfest) because of the general level of bouncing and flipping that happens.

Anyway, I got a new game called Elden Ring that's pretty good.
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #715 on: December 27, 2022, 07:33:57 PM

"Seated VR" as it exists today still does not come close cutting it.  Pass-through capability so I can play regular games with M&K is not negotiable.  Not gimped games requiring use of the special VR controllers that are best when used with big arm and body movements while standing.  And not B grade games.  The games I want to play with VR display are things like Skyrim, Elite Dangerous, No Man's Sky, the Witchers, Black Desert, Final Fantasy XIV, Valheim, Ark, Conan, Fallout.  I want to be able to switch back and forth between 3D and flat screen displays at will with the exact same game, save file, character, etc.


Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Mandella
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1235


Reply #716 on: December 28, 2022, 07:48:29 AM

I agree pass through would be nice, but is the lack of it really a deal breaker? I'm a touch typist myself, and I rarely look down at the keyboard while playing anyway. Just having mouse and keyboard compatibility would be fine for me.

But in any case, I've also put off buying a VR kit, but post Christmas one of my grandkids has expressed an interest, so with that excuse looks like I'll finally take the plunge and get him (and me, when he gets tired of it) one of the kits for his upcoming birthday -- probably the Playstation compatible one for starters.
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #717 on: December 28, 2022, 08:29:30 AM

For most games I'd slap a VR brick on my face for, I'd likely be using a controller. I'd think keyboard use would mostly be limited to mmo and flight sims that have a zillion hotkeys. Actually I think mmo broke me for using keyboards as a primary input device (for 3d games). It just lets the devs dump a bajillion skills and whatnot to button mash to the point of pure absurdity. While I find controllers a bit /too/ limiting, I do think that overall the discipline they enforce on devs is a good thing. The only time I haul out the keyboard is for civ, 7dtd, and now df.

Honestly just having the 3d image and using my natural head movements for a 'mouselook' is most of what I want out of the experience. I enjoyed what the old 3D Vision brought to games (tomb raiders were ridiculously epic), so I might even be fine with just the headset as a monitor with no movement support at all, though I think I'd prefer my head movements to control the mouselook regardless. A visual version of the dualshock 4's motion sensor, which worked well to assist the right thumbstick with fine aiming. At first the two controls kind of fight each other, but as you get used to them, it's a very natural extension.
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #718 on: December 28, 2022, 03:25:10 PM

Oddly enough, though I've been a touch typist for 45 years now, I can TYPE but I can't PLAY GAMES without looking at the keyboard.  When I type a sentence or line of code I think the words and my fingers move without conscious thought.  I guess it's just a matter of repetition, as the same is true for WASD movement, and any game I put enough hours into it becomes automatic, mostly, for somewhere up to 20 or so keys anyway.  But "mostly" is the problem.  I may only need to look at the keyboard briefly every 15 or 20 minutes with a game I'm already familiar with, but yes, it is too much to expect me to take the headset off and on every 15 minutes just for that peek, probably in the middle of combat or something.  And even that still presumes that I'm already familiar with that game's controls from playing it with a monitor.

I had a long ranty post about this a couple of days ago that I discarded, but the main point of it was that the inputs for VR games are really the biggest current bottleneck, not the displays.  The display hardware is still pricey and requires some sacrifices, but it's good enough for starting.  But the sacrifices and tradeoffs required to mash all of the controls needed for any but the most simple or streamlined (simplified) games onto the VR controllers is too much.  Yes, sometimes developers are both talented enough and given enough time to develop a great game with a smaller set of inputs.  And often the truckload of kitchen sinks approach is downright bad design.   But there really are a lot of good games where you need to be able to do a shitton of different things that can't reuse the same 8 inputs based on context, including most of the games I listed as the games I'd like to play with a VR headset right now.  Hell, a 101 key keyboard isn't even enough for Elite Dangerous, among others.  why so serious?

That's not to say that there is no progress being made. I think there's already been some games that take the hand motion controls well beyond the basics of pointing and swinging to stuff like casting a spell by moving your hand around in a different glyph pattern for each spell. That's really cool.  But that puts us out of the realm of things you can do sitting in your chair at your desk.  And as far as I've seen, current consumer grade technology does not support the fine resolution tracking to accurately track individual finger movements which might allow that concept to work at the desk. This is also one of the reasons why using a virtual keyboard is a crappy experience, along with lack of tactile feedback. 

Voice is another option, though if you've ever tried to talk to Alexa or Google Assistant you know how premature that technology is.  And the latency limits its usefulness in games. And it's not acceptable for my situation anyway.

I think it is probably safe to say that it is a MUCH easier technical challenge to put a camera on the front of the device and allow some of the real world image to bleed through or overlay the game world than it is to track the exact placement and movements of 10 fingers which may or may not even be in view of the head mounted device.  Providing pass-through functionality now would give both the game developers and hardware people some breathing room as they work out new UI design patterns and methods.

As an aside, I think the first non-flight simulator game I played that made me think "oh MAN do I wish I could play this in VR" was the EQ beta in 1998.  So that's my excuse for being a bit strident and whiny about not getting what I want - I really have been waiting for it for a looooong time!  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 19212

sentient yeast infection


WWW
Reply #719 on: December 28, 2022, 03:32:20 PM

Nerfed, have you looked at any of the more recent VR passthrough stuff?  The latest Oculus has it as a native feature, and the Index has tools like this: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1844610/Reality_Mixer__Mixed_Reality_for_Vive_and_Index/
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 03:37:54 PM by Samwise »

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #720 on: December 30, 2022, 08:52:53 PM

Nerfed, have you looked at any of the more recent VR passthrough stuff?  The latest Oculus has it as a native feature, and the Index has tools like this: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1844610/Reality_Mixer__Mixed_Reality_for_Vive_and_Index/

Thanks for the pointers, interesting stuff and it does make me more hopeful.

The Quest looks good enough to be almost tempting, but call me paranoid (true), call me a luddite (ludicrously false), or call me a cantankerous old bastard (somewhat true), but I do not have a Facebook account, have never had a Facebook account, will never have a Facebook account, and will never buy anything from nor knowingly participate in anything created by Meta.  No matter how sweetly they bait the privacy-sucking social-manipulating trap.

The Index is a whole lot of money for a bunch of peripherals I don't need or want, and there was something else that made me say "nope" with a wistful sigh, but I can't remember what it was now.  Age and two decades of crisis-level stress leading to depression, anxiety and eventually panic attacks have also destroyed my memory.

And it's been a while since I last researched it, so remind me again which of the games I listed above can I play the full versions of in VR while sitting down using my KB&M via pass-through AR and on which current generation (and non-Meta) VR devices?  That's not intended to be snarky (too much), I'm honestly hoping I've missed something.  Elite Dangerous probably comes the closest from what I've been able to determine.  But that one game is not enough to get me to spend that kind of money.

Looking back at this thread, another thing that age and stress seem to have caused or at least exacerbated is my tendency to repeat myself because I don't remember saying it before!  why so serious?

Also, one of the most tempting VR applications out there today might be Google Earth. 

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23612


Reply #721 on: December 30, 2022, 09:11:08 PM

The Quest 2 does not need a Facebook account. It does require an email account, which becomes your Meta account.

https://www.pcgamer.com/finally-the-quest-2-no-longer-requires-a-facebook-login/
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603


Reply #722 on: December 31, 2022, 10:36:38 AM

Not trying to be dismissive, but that said...

Sit down VR has always been possible.  You just...sit down.  Almost all games allow a height slider.

Except for rare exceptions, playing a "VR" game with kb+m does not even make sense.  A VR headset is not a 3D monitor.  It is a way of putting you into First Person, and the controllers are your hands.  I know you will instinctively want to argue you this point, but as someone who has played THOUSANDS OF HOURS of VR, I know of what I speak.  In the rare circumstance where I am forced to do something with a mouse or a keyboard, it is fucking terrible.  And by that, I mean vomit city.  It is the worst.  You think you want this, but you are wrong.  Your brain does not want it, it turns out.  "But it would totally work with such-and-such kind of game!" you want to yell, but you are largely wrong about that, too.  If that were true, there would be hundreds of converted games doing just that, because it wold be super easy.  It does not work.  That isn't what it is for.

It has been possible for years to do the passthrough thing, and nobody is seriously doing anything with it.  For good reason.

I would love it if there was a great overlay for the rare game like Elite that absolutely requires your keyboard and joystick.  But beyond that, the use cases just are not there.

Quick edit...because some of the games were mentioned...Skyrim and Fallout can be played in VR with mouse and keyboard, and are simple enough that they do not need a passthrough.  And it absolutely fucking pales in comparison to using the controllers, the gap is enormous.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 10:40:52 AM by Cyrrex »

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #723 on: December 31, 2022, 12:00:45 PM

So correct me if I'm misrepresenting something, but extrapolating from your definition real VR can only be done where you, at a minimum, have room to wave your arms around? And are standing up? And all control except possibly a very small number of digital inputs is constrained to head, arm and body movement?  Fine. By that definition I'm really not interested in real VR, except as a vicariously interested spectator who might have been a participant 20 years ago. 

I still think I want to try a 3D monitor for sit-down first person games, but I do acknowledge that it's quite possible it would be barf city.  I have hopes it's possible to train yourself out of the vertigo the same way (some) people train their brain to ignore/overlook the contradictory inputs coming from their eyes and ears, and learn to ride in cars, fly in planes, ride roller coasters, watch or play first person games on a flat monitor, and watch shaky-cam or 3D movies in the theater, all without tossing their cookies.  But I might be wrong, or I might not be one of those people. I never did last long on those amusement rides that spin you around.

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603


Reply #724 on: December 31, 2022, 12:38:43 PM

So let me describe it like this...

You are sitting there at your desk with your VR HMD on your head and your controllers in your hands.  You are playing a first person game, which VR is best suited to.  You move your head to the left and look in that direction, while your hand controllers have you moving or strafing to the right.  Maybe you are even shooting lightning out of the one hand and the other other is waving a sword around.  Assuming you have acclimated a bit to VR, all is well.

You are sitting at your desk with your VR HMD on your head, and equipped with keyboard and mouse.  You are playing a first person game, which VR is best suited to.  You turn your head to the left while hitting the right arrow button (or you slide your mouse to the right) to rotate your target reticule to aim your lightning, and....oh fuck.  This is the worst, you will absolutely barf if you have to keep this up for any length of time.  Nope, nope, and also nope.

See, the brain adapts well to the former situation (and honestly, not always for us older folks), and not at all to the latter.  The problem is not the tech, it is our brains.  "Surely there is a solution to this" you think, and there is...make sure you only use the Forward Arrow for movement, and have everything else controlled by head movement.  Which then makes your keyboard and mouse utterly useless.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 19212

sentient yeast infection


WWW
Reply #725 on: December 31, 2022, 01:36:13 PM

Keyboard control seems like it'd work fine for flight sim or trucker type games, where the headset is synced up with what's happening inside the cockpit and your brain is maybe okay with what's happening outside the cockpit moving independently of your body.  The only thing that's out of sync maybe is whatever inner ear mechanism might normally register that you're in a moving vehicle -- probably not an issue for a truck simulator where you're staying level and not undergoing rapid acceleration, maybe more of an issue for a flight sim.

But using KB+M for a VR FPS?  Lol fuck no.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #726 on: December 31, 2022, 01:49:59 PM

OK, there are a couple bits of information there I did not know which could make a huge difference.  

Is it actually possible to play that game with hand controls while sitting at a desk? The movements can be small enough and all that you won't crash your hand into the keyboard or punch out the monitor?

You control movement with the hand controllers, not body movements?

How do you select between a dozen spells?  I think I'm mostly concerned about how to select between all the different things you might want to do instantaneously with only the hand controllers while doing everything else you need to do with them at the same time.  I'm particularly thinking Elite Dangerous and my heavily modded Skyrim (which I literally don't have enough keys on my keyboard for! LOL).



Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603


Reply #727 on: January 01, 2023, 04:29:17 AM

For Skyrim…in short, no.  You would need to be able to turn around, move your arms in wide arcs, etc.  It would be more like sitting in a gaming chair in the middle of a room.  You can do it without having to turn, but that starts to involve 100% movement using traditional means, which is where Barf City comes into play once again.  Some amount of movement via controller is okay, but 100% is super terrible.  Also, if you are so heavily modded that you are using your keyboard the way you describe…I mean, that is a problem you have created for yourself, so it will have no solution.

Elite is a different story.  And as Samwise wrote, cockpit based stuff is different entirely.  Your brain accepts that scenario, at least after some acclimation.  Assuming the devlelpers get it right, and some do not.  But that said, the chief problem with Elite is that you HAVE TO rely on your keyboard for so many things.  It is phenomenal in VR, but the very thing that stops me from picking it up now and again is the awful thought of having to re-map and re-learn so many key commands while essentially blind.  Could be someone has fixed this problem recently, I have no idea.  You would think a virtual keyboard could be invented.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #728 on: January 01, 2023, 11:07:31 AM

Thanks for putting the nail in the coffin of my interest in this novelty.
Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 19212

sentient yeast infection


WWW
Reply #729 on: January 01, 2023, 12:29:32 PM

You would think a virtual keyboard could be invented.

Like I posted earlier, that's a thing.  I haven't messed around with it because I don't have a lot of interest in playing a keyboard-based game in VR, but it looks like the general idea is that you tell the VR system exactly where your keyboard is, basically drawing a little box around it (similar process to room calibration, I guess), and your keyboard (ONLY the keyboard, plus your hands when they're on the keys of course) becomes visible in the VR space, like you cut a window into your physical room, via passthrough on the headset's camera.  Ideally you'd arrange your desk and chair such that the keyboard sits on the dashboard of your virtual cockpit or whatever instead of floating awkwardly in space.  

A game that wanted to make that easier could automatically adjust the virtual space in a way to conform seamlessly to where your real keyboard sits.  The extra step of adding an AR overlay to bring everything back into the virtual realm instead of having a window in space is a "mere matter of coding" at that point; image recognition tech is easily good enough now that a game could build a virtual replica of your real keyboard, and map virtual hands to what your real hands are doing whenever they're in view of the camera.  Whether any game actually does that right now, I don't know; VR is a niche market, and people who want VR that simulates their existing desk is a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche.  There's probably some Dwarf Fortress type guy out there building it as we speak.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Count Nerfedalot
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1041


Reply #730 on: January 01, 2023, 05:51:07 PM

Samprimary what you describe is exactly what I was thinking could be the gateway/bridge to get things moving with VR. A way to play existing AAA flat screen M&K games in VR while waiting for the VR market to be large enough (and helping to build it), and for VR UI design patterns to mature enough, for the AAA VR games to start getting made.  The pass-through image of the physical keyboard overlaid on the VR world is really important.  Because virtual keyboards with no tactile feedback suck even worse than those chicklet abominations from the 90's and will never work until we add full-finger haptic gloves to the VR mix or something.  But I guess if it's going to be vomit city instead of vice city anyway it's a lost cause.

On a related note, for flight and other driving simulators it might be a better idea to just map out a virtual cockpit with all the buttons, dials and switches you need in VR space.  Or maybe not. That has its own issues so may also not be as perfect a solution as it sounds.  The VR system would need to be really accurate in tracking individual finger locations in 3D space and intelligent about mapping them back into VR space in real time. I don't think we can do that yet with our home kits. Maybe if we resurrect the Nintendo Power Glove?  why so serious?  And that's only half the problem. It takes a lot of practice to be able to accurately and reliably punch the correct button in a bank of buttons 2 or 3 feet away from you. That is much harder than reaching for any of the less-used corner keys on a keyboard where your hands are mostly stationary and starting from the same spot every time.  Think how hard it is to accurately hit that virtual pause button on your car's navigation panel that is just out of reach from your normal seating position while you're steering and doing everything else at the same time.  (For a fun thought exercise, imagine an astronaut doing it in a space suit with big clumsy gloves while being shaken and pounded by thrust at multiple G's). Being able to anchor your hand against something while you poke the correct place with you finger is really the only way to get it right 100% of the time.

Cyrrex what you describe for Skyrim would apply to any game with (almost) any kind of first-person martial combat, would it not?  So we can forget ever playing that entire range of games in VR while seated?  I hope that's not true! I'm not getting younger! Ohhhhh, I see.  But I concede it may well be the case.  Which takes a huge bite out of the potential marketplace for VR as we currently know it.  Basically those genres of games can go in the bucket with dance/rhythm and exercise games. Get off your butt or get lost.

As for what you said about Elite, you do realize you just talked yourself back around to explaining exactly why we need passthrough/AR to allow seeing the keyboard, right?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? 

That said, I've been putting off getting back into Elite with my flat screen for a couple years for the exact same reason. Even not blindfolded, there is a truly intimidating number of keys you need to learn before you can do ANYTHING there.  The payoff is worth it, but damn that's a steep hill to climb just to get started!  Rather like downhill skiing with no chair-lift, tow-rope, snowmobile, helicopter, horse, or any other assisted means of schlepping your body and gear up that mountain before you can even start the ride.

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 19212

sentient yeast infection


WWW
Reply #731 on: January 02, 2023, 12:41:54 AM

The VR system would need to be really accurate in tracking individual finger locations in 3D space and intelligent about mapping them back into VR space in real time. I don't think we can do that yet with our home kits.

Tracking the hands isn't the issue.  Go watch a gameplay video of HL:Alyx and right away you'll see people doing stuff that requires very fine motion tracking -- you can pick up a marker and write with it, a lot of the gameplay actually involves doing stuff like catching and throwing in a very natural-feeling way, and there are plenty of puzzles where you're fiddling with controls on a virtual device.  It works so well that after the first few minutes you just take it for granted.  I haven't played the VR truck sim games but I bet you can poke at the buttons on the dash and twist knobs to tune the radio and all that kind of thing.  Making motion tracking work as well as it does is really the thing that makes VR viable at all, not for the controls but for the visuals; if you're trying to convince your brain that it's in a virtual space, but what your eyes are seeing doesn't line up in a plausible way with where your head is moving, you get a version of the "uncanny valley" effect that makes you want to barf.  If I remember it right, early versions of the Oculus were notoriously barfy because they did a good job of tracking rotational movement (which is basically the thing you need from a game control perspective if you want to replace mouselook) but they didn't track and translate small lateral movements, and that little discrepancy is enough to make the brain rebel against the whole thing.  That's all a solved problem and has been for several years.

The main limitation is force feedback.  You can do a certain amount with rumble in the controllers, e.g. you get a little "click" tactile feedback when you push a virtual button.  If you're jabbing a button that you're looking at, you can kinda ignore the fact that it doesn't have physical resistance; when you feel the click and that little bit of tactile feedback matches up with what your eyes are seeing, your brain plays along with the illusion and automatically pulls your hand back.  (This is the "wow" of VR that's hard to explain -- there are times when you're absolutely convinced that objects in virtual space are solid.)  The visual element is crucial to the trick, though, because you don't actually have anywhere near the same quality of tactile feedback that you'd have in the real world.  If you tried to feel your way around a set of controls while your eyes are elsewhere (like you can do with real fingertips on a real keyboard, or hands on a steering wheel, or what have you), the illusion would fall apart because the graphics would no longer be doing the heavy lifting in telling your brain what's going on so it can fill in the gaps from your other senses.

The fact that it's all smoke and mirrors is why you mostly only get good VR games when the designer is specifically targeting VR and all the strengths and limitations are well understood in advance.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603


Reply #732 on: January 02, 2023, 01:22:54 AM

You would think a virtual keyboard could be invented.

Like I posted earlier, that's a thing.  I haven't messed around with it because I don't have a lot of interest in playing a keyboard-based game in VR, but it looks like the general idea is that you tell the VR system exactly where your keyboard is, basically drawing a little box around it (similar process to room calibration, I guess), and your keyboard (ONLY the keyboard, plus your hands when they're on the keys of course) becomes visible in the VR space, like you cut a window into your physical room, via passthrough on the headset's camera.  Ideally you'd arrange your desk and chair such that the keyboard sits on the dashboard of your virtual cockpit or whatever instead of floating awkwardly in space.  

A game that wanted to make that easier could automatically adjust the virtual space in a way to conform seamlessly to where your real keyboard sits.  The extra step of adding an AR overlay to bring everything back into the virtual realm instead of having a window in space is a "mere matter of coding" at that point; image recognition tech is easily good enough now that a game could build a virtual replica of your real keyboard, and map virtual hands to what your real hands are doing whenever they're in view of the camera.  Whether any game actually does that right now, I don't know; VR is a niche market, and people who want VR that simulates their existing desk is a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche.  There's probably some Dwarf Fortress type guy out there building it as we speak.

Yeah, I was actually just talking about a very simplified in-game virtual keyboard, not a real passthrough like this.  But that said, looking at this more closely, I can think of a number of good use cases for the one you linked.  Would be great for Elite, for example.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Tale
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8558

sıɥʇ ǝʞıן sʞןɐʇ


Reply #733 on: January 06, 2023, 08:50:51 PM

Much of the Elite Dangerous player base still plays in VR most of the time. I've barely played since the Odyssey expansion launch, but I still listen weekly to the (best) Elite Dangerous podcast "Lave Radio" which is a bunch of amiable mostly-Scottish Gen X dads chatting (I'm a Scottish-Australian Gen X dad).

Having become immersed in Zwift instead, I've stopped using VR. I'm on a real bicycle that feels like riding on the road and there's a monitor in front of my face with me and my team and my XP bar and powerups and gear unlocks, we're on Discord in my earbuds, and to make it work we are actually pedalling (and have fans blowing air at us so we don't overheat, which again makes it feel like actually cycling). We wouldn't be able to wear today's VR tech due to the heat and sweat. Lightweight AR/VR glasses of the future might work.
Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603


Reply #734 on: January 07, 2023, 05:20:35 AM

Sure, but what you are talking about is pure exercise and does not sound remotely fun =)

In related news, Resident Evil 2 in VR is great goddamn fun.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 [21] Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  Topic: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC