Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online

[Hutch]

I didn't sign up for the beta.

I signed up for their forums, which are already providing more entertainment than Crowfall (the game) ever likely will. 

[Triforcer]

Raph's an asshat now?

If only I could dredge up my remarks about some of the UO decisions in alpha/beta. I've had it out for him since he was known as DD, not by first name.

I guess it depends on if your definition of "asshat" in the MMO space is "He once increased cleric aggro in pre-Kunark EQ by 3%, so in the last 17 years my incandescent eternal rage has blazed at him, every game he ever worked on, and the wretched earth that allows him to exist" or "dumb, pathological liar who actively holds his customers in sneering contempt."

There are a lot of devs in Column B, but Raph isn't one of them.  If you are a Column A type- well, I guess Raph is evil too!

[Lantyssa]

Raph can poke fun at HAM while giving us a 200 page analysis on what it was supposed to do and where it went wrong.  He's neither a bad guy nor an asshat, and I doubt you'd find anyone in the industry or tangently related that disagrees with that.

[schild]

I don't think anyone expects Raph to willfully make a bad game. I think we expect him not to see projects to completion or until he "finds the fun," and he falls short with a measure of integrity, which most folks can't do.

[Rendakor]

I didn't sign up for the beta.

I signed up for their forums, which are already providing more entertainment than Crowfall (the game) ever likely will. 

Forum sign ups are closed now, and I'm saddened by this.

[Nija]

He couldn't even find a title to his liking on his project, for one reason or another, so I expect him to be gone ASAP once some design docs are written. At that point they'll partially be implemented and we'll be left with some half assed system(s) for the remainder of the game.

[naum]

I didn't sign up for the beta.

I signed up for their forums, which are already providing more entertainment than Crowfall (the game) ever likely will. 

New sig!

[Hutch]

The Crowfall devs will be using a tool called Voxel Farm to build the terrain of the game's worlds. The idea is to use pre-created art assets and procedural generation to come up with a new set of terrain for each campaign.

Forum Announcement (also includes the elk-man archetype).

Voxel FAQ

Why is this important for Crowfall?

Crowfall is a mix of an MMORPG and a strategy game.

You know that feeling you get, the first time you log in to a new game – that rush of exploration and mystery? The sense of excitement that comes during first turn of a game like Civilization – the urgency to explore, to expand, to conquer? that’s the emotion that we want, every time you enter a new Campaign World.

One of the things that can make a strategy game grow stale is knowledge of the game board. If players learn that the key to winning is to always “take control of point A” and “avoid the choke point at B,” it makes subsequent games less interesting.

By using an algorithmic approach to create new game Worlds at the “push of a button,” Crowfall can keep the players constantly guessing and keep the game feeling new.

[taolurker]

ROFLMAO

* taolurker points at the Landmark thread and laughs some more.

[Paelos]

I like the idea of procedural made worlds. That's something I think most games should try in the future in addition to restarting servers regularly.

The destruction worlds shit has been promised time and again for decades. It never works out the way people envision.

[Merusk]

Hey maybe this time we'll get 3d movement beyond jumping

Nah

[sam, an eggplant]

That's not quite true-- mass-market AAA MMOs can't retain 200k subs. They can get 600k subs at launch, easily. Even Age of Conan hit that. ESO sold 300k physical copies alone, meaning it sold over a million total. Wildstar sold a bit under half that.

Spending that initial $60 is a huge hurdle. That initial investment gets you through the door and psychologically inclined to enjoy the game, because that validates your purchase.

There are teeming masses of people ready and willing to pay $15/month for the next great MMO. Problem is, nobody released it!

[Rendakor]

Did you miss a page or reply to the wrong thread?

[Malakili]

There are teeming masses of people ready and willing to pay $15/month for the next great MMO. Problem is, nobody released it!

I don't know if this is true.  There are masses of people that will pay 15 bucks a month for a great/popular/iconic MMO.  Let's not forget that WoW became a pop culture thing for a while, not just a good MMO.  Soccer moms were playing WoW.  Are soccer moms "waiting for the next great MMO"?  I doubt it.  But they'll play it if it becomes a "thing."  A confluence of things are needed to reach that tier of popularity and even being a great game isn't enough.

But I think a lot of people don't pay any real amount of attention to it.  They'll just buy the thing if a critical mass of their friends play it or whatever.  

[Lantyssa]

I don't know if this is true.  There are masses of people that will pay 15 bucks a month for a great/popular/iconic MMO.  Let's not forget that WoW became a pop culture thing for a while, not just a good MMO.  Soccer moms were playing WoW.  Are soccer moms "waiting for the next great MMO"?  I doubt it.  But they'll play it if it becomes a "thing."  A confluence of things are needed to reach that tier of popularity and even being a great game isn't enough.

I really doubt any new game will work with a $15 required subscription.  WoW will be the last.  The generation that accepted it as a general rule is getting older and has less time.  The newer generations of players are more flighty.  It's just not something which is appealing to any demographic.

[Nija]

Wow is already not the last - look at FF14.

[Draegan]

Or SWTOR.

[Lantyssa]

Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

WoW numbers are still larger than FF14 by a significant margin.  Ard pointed it out to me last night, but the fact that nearly everyone forgets it exists emphasizes my point that no one is going to look to it as a model to emulate.

Business belief and consumer psychology will ensure the subscription model won't be dominant for a long time, if ever again.  It's not viable for a mass-appeal game on either side of the equation so you're really unlikely to see it unless it's a game that takes risks in a lot of other areas as well.  And for some reason, money men don't like risks.

[sam, an eggplant]

There are masses of people that will pay 15 bucks a month for a great/popular/iconic MMO.  Let's not forget that WoW became a pop culture thing for a while, not just a good MMO.  Soccer moms were playing WoW.  Are soccer moms "waiting for the next great MMO"?  I doubt it.  But they'll play it if it becomes a "thing."  A confluence of things are needed to reach that tier of popularity and even being a great game isn't enough.

WoW became a popular sensation because it was a truly great game.

Nothing else has taken its place simply because nobody has managed to create the Next Great MMO. That doesn't mean it will never happen, just that it hasn't happened yet. At one (admittedly much briefer) point Everquest seemed an unstoppable juggernaut too.

(Back to the subject of this thread, Crowfall will not be the Next Great MMO. They aren't even aiming for it. A wise move.)

[Draegan]

Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

WoW numbers are still larger than FF14 by a significant margin.  Ard pointed it out to me last night, but the fact that nearly everyone forgets it exists emphasizes my point that no one is going to look to it as a model to emulate.

Business belief and consumer psychology will ensure the subscription model won't be dominant for a long time, if ever again.  It's not viable for a mass-appeal game on either side of the equation so you're really unlikely to see it unless it's a game that takes risks in a lot of other areas as well.  And for some reason, money men don't like risks.

From what I've read SWTOR has just under a half million subs and close to 2 million players overall.

People are generally Ok with subscriptions, it's the barrier of entry that causes the loss of players which is a box price.

[sam, an eggplant]

People are generally Ok with subscriptions, it's the barrier of entry that causes the loss of players which is a box price.

I completely agree! ESO sold 1m copies, but didn't retain many of them. That's why I keep coming back to retention. People are standing around ready to pay $60. MMOs sell.

[Hutch]

Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

I don't think he was being sarcastic. I think he was ignoring the part where you said

$15 required subscription.

TOR, like many other MMOs that have come before and after it, is F2P. It has an optional subscription.

[Lantyssa]

Exactly.

Not paying a sub cuts you off completely from games like WoW and FFXIV.  Tor I have the option of still doing things, even if I'm more restricted.  I still have the stickiness of my friends and guild.  I still can throw a few bucks at that cool outfit.  I'm just not forced to pay a sub.  It causes there to be a much softer barrier.

It's a superior model, and as restrictive as SWTOR is to play without a sub, it has three times more non-sub players if Draegan's numbers are close.  (And what's that ratio for WoW and FFXIV if you consider Asian markets that don't run on the same sub model as North America and Europe?)

[LC]

Pretty much every cash shop game says "we aren't like those other guys" in the beginning. I can't wait to play 2 crush pay 2 crush.

[Gimfain]

Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

WoW numbers are still larger than FF14 by a significant margin.  Ard pointed it out to me last night, but the fact that nearly everyone forgets it exists emphasizes my point that no one is going to look to it as a model to emulate.

Business belief and consumer psychology will ensure the subscription model won't be dominant for a long time, if ever again.  It's not viable for a mass-appeal game on either side of the equation so you're really unlikely to see it unless it's a game that takes risks in a lot of other areas as well.  And for some reason, money men don't like risks.

From what I've read SWTOR has just under a half million subs and close to 2 million players overall.

People are generally Ok with subscriptions, it's the barrier of entry that causes the loss of players which is a box price.

Your 500k subs and 2 million players was 4-6 months after fremium launch which was two years ago. There are no new numbers because EA likes the image that swtor turned to a popular game ever since it transitioned to fremium model.

[sam, an eggplant]

They keep making expansions. I don't see EA, of all companies, continuing to invest in a loser.

[Draegan]

Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

WoW numbers are still larger than FF14 by a significant margin.  Ard pointed it out to me last night, but the fact that nearly everyone forgets it exists emphasizes my point that no one is going to look to it as a model to emulate.

Business belief and consumer psychology will ensure the subscription model won't be dominant for a long time, if ever again.  It's not viable for a mass-appeal game on either side of the equation so you're really unlikely to see it unless it's a game that takes risks in a lot of other areas as well.  And for some reason, money men don't like risks.

From what I've read SWTOR has just under a half million subs and close to 2 million players overall.

People are generally Ok with subscriptions, it's the barrier of entry that causes the loss of players which is a box price.

Your 500k subs and 2 million players was 4-6 months after fremium launch which was two years ago. There are no new numbers because EA likes the image that swtor turned to a popular game ever since it transitioned to fremium model.

I'm just going off of a Polygon article from August of 2014.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/14/6001503/star-wars-the-old-republic-2014-players-ea-bioware

They have a $100M+ revenue stream from everything. That's high enough for me to call it popular.

[Lantyssa]

It's not enough to call it a sub game though.

[sam, an eggplant]

We need to get away from discarding games with optional subscriptions as failures-- all that matters is continued profit and sustainability. Who cares if it's a "sub game" or not? They managed to successfully segment their market. That's cool. That makes sense.

[Typhon]

When the conversation starts with, "people are fine with a subscription, you just need a good MMO to be made", it's kind of hard to get away from a conversation about subs.  Well, not until someone concedes that point, anyway.

I'm just speculating, but I don't think Lant actually gives a rats ass about the sub conversation apart from how the conversation began and the now-F2P games that were offered as evidence that, "people are fine with subs, just need good game".

"What makes an online game count as a success", is a different conversation that we've also beaten to death recently... in this very same thread I think.

[Lantyssa]

Pretty much.

I don't think having an optional sub means failure.  I think it's smart.  I'm saying sub-only is no longer viable for new titles if they want to maximize their profits, which businesses usually do.

[sam, an eggplant]

Well sure, you can't segment the market if you only offer a single product at a single price.

But riddle me this-- should WoW go B2P with optional subs and a EVE PLEX-type payment scheme? Would they make more money in the mid and long-term?

Or would all the untold millions of people subscribing to play casually and chat with friends simply stop paying between patches?

[Typhon]

Riddle me this, if you are making an assload of money... I mean a metric fuck ton of it, say, like WoW, would you do anything to fuck that up or would you ride that gravy train just as long as you could?

My answer would be, "Fuck NO! Ride that train!"

[sam, an eggplant]

Welll, that would be my response too. Market segmentation is a valid and accepted practice, but it doesn't always make sense. Even though it would probably work for WoW, and make them more money long-term, in the short term they would be murdered. They don't have the freedom to change their business model, because the risk is too high.

Similarly, if I'm spending hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a new AAA+ MMO with a world-class IP like Elder Scrolls or certainly Star Wars, I'm not launching B2P or F2P. I'm launching subscription-only, because I'm aiming straight for the stars. If it turns out that dangit, even spending $400m with the Marvel Avengers IP, I'm not going to dethrone WoW, I plan ahead to pivot to a new business model. Which is exactly what ESO is doing, and what (so far) Wildstar is failing to do.

[Lantyssa]

Riddle me this, why use WoW as anything but an example of an outlier? :-p

Crazy-time!  Let's look at it like this for a new game and assuming you're not total shit or the best thing since you had that dream about that perfect game:

Sub-only is going to have X subscribers.  These are going to be the people willing to pay for the game for a whole month.  You're going to have Y people who are interested in playing, but either don't have or don't want to spend the cash.  You have Z people who might throw a little cash your way if they could play.  W people are free-loaders.

X + Y + Z (+ W) = Money

X = guaranteed income [assuming stable]
Y = lost opportunity
Z = lost opportunity
W = free-loaders

Now your X group is going to be mostly stable.  You can count on them to pay month in and month out.  Sure there's turn-over, and you'll have a decline between expansions and patches, but these are the guys all the traditional "SUB OR DIE" people are chasing.  A new game comes out?  You lost them for a few months.  Will they come back?  Who knows, but you've got that sub-barrier up now.  Now if you drop required subs for optional subs some of these guys might slip into the Y or Z group.  This is horrifying... It also ignores that some of the guys and gals in this group will throw buckets and buckets of money if you let them and your model takes that into account.

Y is a scary group to business types.  They're not die-hards.  They're flighty.  Will they give us money this month or not?  Well, actually, yes.  Which of them is giving you money might change, but if you're putting out things in your item shop you're going to get a steady revenue stream.  And surprise!  If you don't threaten them with NO ACCESS because they didn't throw the required number of dollars at you.  But 50% is a lot more than zero, and a lot of people who are scared of commitment don't actually have a problem paying a sub, they just don't want to lose access if they stop.

Z guys may not spend all that much.  But they're not really costing you anything, and if they do spend money it's money you didn't have.  Plus if they are far more likely to migrate into the X and Y groups if actively playing your game than if you had told them you're not interested in them by cutting off their sub.

W group!  Well, maybe they're free-loaders, but they bring friends along and keep the game alive in their little community.  Heck, they might even spend money once in a while because they're not spending $180 a year on a sub, so what's a one-time $25 purchase?

Our two models boil down to:

(X)  vs.  (X + Y + Z + W)

For SWTOR we're looking at (200k) vs. (500k + 1500k) to use Draegan's numbers, because going f2p actually boosted subscription rates since people aren't terrified of having their access cut off and it drew in people that otherwise wouldn't have tried the game.

So in summary, if Y, Z, and/or W are not negligible in size to X, and there is no reason to believe they are, you're a moron who hates money to exclude these people from playing your game.