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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA] 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA]  (Read 139321 times)
Margalis
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Reply #140 on: March 15, 2014, 12:31:21 PM

Yeah, I think I just invented the last-hitting thing.

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luckton
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Reply #141 on: March 15, 2014, 03:03:40 PM

As someone who likes, but is terrible at, MOBAs I welcome our dumbed-down overlords.

+1.  I like my TCGs with strategy and all, but MOBAs are a different beast.  Taking the item paradigm out of the equation gives more emphasis on how you're actually playing your champ with your cohorts, as opposed to steroiding out with gear and facerolling.

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Druzil
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Reply #142 on: March 17, 2014, 09:53:09 AM

The best part of this whole thing so far is seeing Stitches on his tiny horse mount, it's so absurdly ridiculous.  Terror of Darkshire indeed.  awesome, for real
Nebu
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Reply #143 on: March 17, 2014, 10:36:51 AM

As someone who likes, but is terrible at, MOBAs I welcome our dumbed-down overlords.

It's as if you could read my mind.  I enjoy LoL, but have resigned myself to the fact that I just don't have the twitch necessary to be good at it.  I do well in team fights (ARAM), but when you combine this with last-hitting I'm a lost cause. 

I'm looking forward to this title. 

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Typhon
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Reply #144 on: March 17, 2014, 11:05:04 AM

I can last hit, and I can ward, I just don't wanna!

Also looking forward to this, as long as "this" is the thing I've imagined in my head (haven't really done any research to figure out what they are making).
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #145 on: March 17, 2014, 06:22:30 PM

I like LOL, I like to think I'm generally good at it but the competitive atmosphere breeds a vile user base I cannot stand. This game might be similar but I have a feeling it won't nearly be as bad.

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Reply #146 on: March 17, 2014, 08:44:07 PM

Can you chat in HOTS? If so, it'll be as bad as LoL.

I bet you the people across from you at Hearthstone tables are total shitheels, but you'll never know that.
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Reply #147 on: March 18, 2014, 03:18:31 AM

You do with some. Wife had a guy spam "I will crush you" over and over on her turn. In my last foray I had a guy spam every emote in random order on my turns.  Then there's the guys who sit and let the timer run out every turn.   If there's interaction and competition assholes will find a way to make it unpleasant. 

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Reply #148 on: March 18, 2014, 05:12:19 AM

You can easily squelch the emotes.  Its pretty much the first thing I do when ever I start a match.

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Rendakor
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Reply #149 on: April 01, 2014, 02:29:10 PM

Anyone know if this has an NDA?

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Reply #150 on: April 01, 2014, 02:40:25 PM

NDA dropped in the middle of March when the Technical Alpha invites went out.
Rendakor
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Reply #151 on: April 01, 2014, 02:51:18 PM

Cool, thanks. Just got an invite, will post impressions after I've played it a bit. Anyone else in?

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Margalis
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Reply #152 on: April 17, 2014, 08:07:30 PM

This may bomb.

Very little excitement from anyone, streaming numbers are awful and the game is incredibly boring to spectate.

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Paelos
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Reply #153 on: April 17, 2014, 08:08:24 PM

How far along in the process is this?

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Rendakor
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Reply #154 on: April 17, 2014, 08:43:54 PM

I played it for a few hours the day I got in and haven't touched it since. It feels like LoL meets Hearthstone:
  • Limited pool of free heroes (not sure if they're static or rotating)
  • Unlock other heroes with real cash or in game currency
  • Daily quests similar to HS
  • No gold, no items
  • Your whole team levels up together
  • Basic skills all unlocked at level 1; choice of 2 Ults per character at higher level
  • Limited option of "talents" for customization as you level in game
  • Long, unskippable tutorial before you're allowed to play.
  • PVP requires several PVE/Coop games to even unlocked

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Reply #155 on: April 17, 2014, 09:36:35 PM

no gold or items?

wut why
Rendakor
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Reply #156 on: April 17, 2014, 10:41:59 PM

Because simplified? Fuck if I know, it's as mind boggling to me as most decisions they made in HS. If they had gone with the Dota model of all heroes unlocked, I might have played longer.

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Margalis
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Reply #157 on: April 18, 2014, 02:12:12 AM

How far along in the process is this?

It's pretty far along, and unless they reverse a bunch of major decisions I think they're fucked.

Saying that it's the Hearthstone equivalent of LoL is very valid. The problem is that in the online card game space you had a good game that was not very accessible (Magic online) and a bunch of games that either weren't good or had bad production value, so making a shiny simpler Magic made sense.

In the MOBA space you have a bunch of games that have decent production value and are accessible. LoL is already the Hearthstone to DOTA's Magic. So Heroes of the Storm is like the Hearthstone of a game that's already the Hearthstone of another game.

I really like Magic the Gathering but it has a bunch of obvious problems: awful client, very little support for having fun with the cards you own without paying, lack of any sort of grinding / XP / evolution (this is a "problem" in quotes), gameplay that requires a lot of clicking through and priority passing. Hearthstone represents improvements, or at least changes that make sense on some level.

LOL is much less obviously flawed than Magic so coming up with simple improvements is tough. The ability to choose talents as you level up including alternate ults is cool, and the meta quests are ok if you like pointlessly filling meters. That's pretty much it as far as things that could be considered improvements in HOTS. Then factor in the lack of depth, the annoying maps with obnoxious gimmick events, and the snowballing nature of matches that robs them of any excitement and you have a game that doesn't offer much of anything over existing competitors except shitty Blizzard lore.

They also did a terrible job of promoting the game by giving early keys to people who had no idea how to play MOBAs, to people who only picked Nova in every match, and to people who are incredibly obnoxious. Hearthstone built a lot of early momentum based on early streaming and HOTS is doing exactly the opposite of that - watching HOTS streams is torture.

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K9
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Reply #158 on: April 18, 2014, 02:26:03 AM

Agreed with what Margalis is saying; if streaming is a proxy for interest (which seems like a fair assumuption) then this game is looking very weak.

Aside from the usual Blizzard-level high quality production standards, this game fails to innovate in any interesting ways. It's yet another rehash of existing IPs, only in an even less coherent way than Hearthstone. They're also not working with their best assets either really, the first new heroes they added (this week) were two I had never heard of.

The game seems to lack a power curve, there is essentially no evolution in play as a match progresses, and the pace of fights is really slow. All in all it's dull as hell to watch, and I can only imagine that it's marginally less dull to play.

I get that Blizzard has done well by playing it safe for a long time, but this game is too safe and suffers greatly. They really need to develop a new IP too, because they're doing nostalgia to death, and it's getting tiresome.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 02:31:52 AM by K9 »

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Malakili
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Reply #159 on: April 18, 2014, 03:30:12 AM

How far along in the process is this?

It's pretty far along, and unless they reverse a bunch of major decisions I think they're fucked.


They should have left this thing a Starcraft 2 mod.  Actually, there is a Starcraft 2 mod Aeon of Storms that is already a better MOBA than this is, I think (and is totally free because the Starcraft 2 arcade is free these days). Even as a stand alone, given that LoL and DOTA 2 can be really frustrating when things go bad, if they can offer a bit less of a frustrating game for a group of friends to play in the MOBA genre, then they do have SOME audience.  But I'm not going to put a lot of money into it either.


The big mistake they are making, as I've said and as others have said, is going with the LoL rather than the DOTA 2 pricing model.  I can imagine having some fun times with this with my friends if I can just pop on and play anything with them. Hell, you might even get me to buy an announcer pack or a funny Diablo in a Santa Hat skin. But I'm not shelling out on a per hero basis, and I'm not interested in only playing what is free this week or saving up enough "Blizzard Bucks" or whatever it will be to buy characters with in-game cash.




Paelos
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Reply #160 on: April 18, 2014, 06:13:04 AM

I get that Blizzard has done well by playing it safe for a long time, but this game is too safe and suffers greatly. They really need to develop a new IP too, because they're doing nostalgia to death, and it's getting tiresome.

Well they tried to do that with Titan, and I think the shocking realization hit home that the people who made up these IPs in the first place are long gone. And all they have left is bootlicker turned fanfic guy Metzen.

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Rendakor
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Reply #161 on: April 18, 2014, 07:47:19 AM

The big mistake they are making, as I've said and as others have said, is going with the LoL rather than the DOTA 2 pricing model.  I can imagine having some fun times with this with my friends if I can just pop on and play anything with them. Hell, you might even get me to buy an announcer pack or a funny Diablo in a Santa Hat skin. But I'm not shelling out on a per hero basis, and I'm not interested in only playing what is free this week or saving up enough "Blizzard Bucks" or whatever it will be to buy characters with in-game cash.
This is my biggest complaint too, and one of the reasons I never got into LoL despite playing DOTA pretty heavily. If they offered some kind of $40-60 unlock-all-the-heroes-forever option I might bite too; the fact that we're in ALPHA and they still restricted the available characters to 5 is fucking ridiculous.

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Simond
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Reply #162 on: April 18, 2014, 08:42:31 AM

Well they tried to do that with Titan, and I think the shocking realization hit home that the people who made up these IPs in the first place are long gone. And all they have left is bootlicker turned fanfic guy Metzen.
So you're claiming that Metzen had nothing to do with Blizzard's older games?

Interesting theory.

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Paelos
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Reply #163 on: April 18, 2014, 11:00:39 AM

He was in the building. They let him write some portions. But he wasn't the creator of these IPs.

He's credited with some of that because he's the remaining employee. Roper and Brevik and the other guys have moved on. Anything we've seen out of Metzen in the last 8 years shows the depths of his crappy storytelling.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 11:02:58 AM by Paelos »

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Merusk
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Reply #164 on: April 18, 2014, 11:16:12 AM

Even if that's the case, the stuff from Roper and Brevik haven't been stellar in recent years.

Brevik: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,11644/
Roper: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,1020/

I think it's more a case of the guys running things are simply old men.  They're older than I am and have different priorities and ways of looking at things now. They aren't spending 15 hours a day at home playing games, thinking of how to make them better. 

When I look at HoTS and Hearthstone I see old men's interpretations of how to improve games, focused mainly on streamlining and ripping things out that are confusing or time consuming instead of refining them.  I also see businessmen's ways of "improving" the game to generate revenue over gameplay.

HoTS appeals to me because I don't give a fuck about items, last-hitting or faming gold.  I want to get in and fuck shit up with a hero without dealing with ANY of that nonsense that drove me away from LoL. I just didn't have time to deal with and research any of that crap and my reflexes are shit and I'm not going to amp up on Monster, Red Bull and other shit to keep my alert levels at 120%.

I also like not having to grind for shit. Let me pay to win, I've got money to blow on 'em.

However, I'm 40 this year, I shouldn't be the target market.

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Paelos
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Reply #165 on: April 18, 2014, 11:37:46 AM

I agree, they are all getting old and/or have left and done different things.

The new IP ideas usually come from new blood with good management, or young guys making new companies. Blizzard won't get the new company IP unless they buy one, but they can get new ideas from their younger generation of employees if they have the management in place to allow it. So far, it hasn't worked out.

Meanwhile Activision came out with Skylanders, and that seems to be doing pretty well.

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Ragnoros
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Reply #166 on: April 18, 2014, 12:02:02 PM

However, I'm 40 this year, I shouldn't be the target market.

I don't know about that. The kids who grew up on the NES and other early consoles are now around their thirties / forties. While the 18-25 demographic has traditionally been chased as the market with disposable cash, most people I know that age are broke ass college students, or just plain broke. Middle age people have money, and are a more known quantity to market to than fickle kids. I can see HotS being a fine DotA/LoL stand in for the non-Mountain Dew fueled market.

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Reply #167 on: April 18, 2014, 12:18:37 PM

The 18-25 demographic is the one you want to reach to make things "trend." They are not the fuckers with the money, not these days.

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Reply #168 on: April 18, 2014, 12:56:49 PM

Yeah, and that's why you aim at them with new properties; so you can get them in the nostalgia crush of their 30s and 40s when they have cash.

Activision is going to make bank with Skylanders revisited in 20 years.  Nintendo - had they a brain in their head - would be crushed under the nostalgia rush of a decent multiplayer Pokemon game now that those kids are in their mid 20's/ early 30s.

Why did Batman become a thing again in 1989? It was 20 years after 1960s camp version and very much a product of that. Then 20 years after that they hit us with Nolan.  Brands recycle.

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Reply #169 on: April 18, 2014, 03:17:57 PM

He was in the building. They let him write some portions. But he wasn't the creator of these IPs.
Created Starcraft, expanded Warcraft from "Hey, there's some orcs and some humans and they fight" to everything from WC2 onwards, and co-created Diablo.

But sure.

Whatever.

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Reply #170 on: April 18, 2014, 03:27:42 PM

And the more words they let him use, the worse it all gets.

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Margalis
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Reply #171 on: April 18, 2014, 03:48:54 PM

Writing the lore for an IP is not the same as creating the IP.

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Simond
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Reply #172 on: April 18, 2014, 04:01:59 PM

And the more words they let him use, the worse it all gets.
See, now that I'll agree with. Man is in dire need of an editor with the power to say "No, that's dumb".

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Reply #173 on: April 18, 2014, 04:23:36 PM

I want to find out who took the Butcher's terrifying "Ahhh... fresh meat" in Diablo 1 and turned it into "Oh hai I'm some psychotic fairy-bitch who you will kill in the next act... and now I'd like to introduce the Butcher because you all like to listen to game show hosts right? Now fight" in a fucking cutscene no less.

Seriously, way to kill the whole effect with words.

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Paelos
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Reply #174 on: April 18, 2014, 05:29:23 PM

He was in the building. They let him write some portions. But he wasn't the creator of these IPs.
Created Starcraft, expanded Warcraft from "Hey, there's some orcs and some humans and they fight" to everything from WC2 onwards, and co-created Diablo.

But sure.

Whatever.

James Phinney helped create Starcraft. See no matter what happened with those IPs surrounding Metzen, there was always another guy in the big picture. Metzen's been on his own for a while now, and for some reason we've seen shit get worse and worse and worse.

And no new IPs. And a failed one in Titan (so far). You're the fanboi here so you can believe the company line all you want. I think the fact that we've seen what we've seen out of Metzen when he's had full control has been basically lore garbage. And again, the Titan failure to launch so far is a huge blow, even though they won't paint it as such.

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