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Author Topic: Bitch Thread for Warlords of Draenor  (Read 484747 times)
Rokal
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Reply #875 on: July 07, 2014, 07:10:42 PM

Back in LK, raiding used to be accessible because the normal modes were relatively easy. Then they turned up the difficulty because the hardcore whined, and threw the casuals a bone with LFR. But LFR is shitty because you're playing with randoms instead of fucking around with your friends.

And then they added Flex in MoP which had a similar difficulty to LK normals. In WoD flex will become the new normal, meaning that normal raiding will be back to LK levels of difficulty if not a little lower.

But by all means,  Beating a Dead Horse
Rendakor
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Reply #876 on: July 07, 2014, 07:26:22 PM

Which is a great idea but the ship has sailed. They had an excellent system in LK and they ruined it with Cata so everyone I know stopped playing. MoP fixed the raiding difficulty but the launch was awful because of daily-rep-hell so the few people I know (self included) that went back didn't stay. Maybe we'll all try it again for WoD, but I doubt it because we're all just tired of chasing the dragon that was LK. Too little, too late has become the story of WoW for me now; I've been burned too many times to get my hopes up anymore.

Edit: Also as Merusk said, you can't do 10 and 25 in the same week anymore, which really sucks. Our 10m crew was fairly serious about progression (working on but not full clearing Heroic raids), but we liked to do 25m casually so we could bring our bad friends along for a good time. Now I'd need two characters to do that, or to do them on two different difficulties. Also the actual hardest raid is still capped at a specific size, and it's a strange one that hasn't existed before which is again fucking stupid. If they didn't want the last difficulty to be Flex, it should be 10, 25, or both. Instead they made it 20 because reasons, so if you have a guild of 25 that's doing the rest of the content you have to bench people when you get to hard mode; if that's a 25m crew that's somehow been raiding in WoW together since LK that's really fucking shitty.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:31:21 PM by Rendakor »

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Sjofn
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Reply #877 on: July 07, 2014, 10:25:42 PM

Our 10m crew was fairly serious about progression (working on but not full clearing Heroic raids), but we liked to do 25m casually so we could bring our bad friends along for a good time.

How is this possible, 25-man assholes were constantly insisting 25m was TOO HARD for my casual 10m brain to comprehend.  why so serious?

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Rendakor
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Reply #878 on: July 08, 2014, 03:15:46 AM

Most fights had a larger margin of error in 25m, at least on normal; ToC's faction champs and the LK himself were two notable exceptions. The hardest part of 25m for us was always finding the ~5 randoms we inevitably needed to fill out our group without pissing anyone off re: loot comp.

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Reply #879 on: July 08, 2014, 04:21:14 PM

No no, I know, I did 25m once in a great while with my brother's guild, and I remember thinking, "Man, this is so much easier!" because you could carry a couple of derps without it being the end of the world. Which is why I was always greatly amused by the 25m people being all TEN MAN IS SO EASY DON'T YOU DARE GIVE THEM GEAR LIKE OURS.

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Reply #880 on: July 08, 2014, 07:10:01 PM

I'd say it depended on the fight. "DON'T STAND IN THE THING OR THE RAID DIES" stuff like LK's defile, Putricide's slimes, Yogg Saron, Archimonde, etc are way harder in 25m because you only need 1 out of 25 people to be a gigantic retard to wipe the raid.

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Rendakor
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Reply #881 on: July 08, 2014, 08:21:43 PM

There are more fights without mechanics like that than with, and worst-case scenario just have your bad facepull and die early and 24m it. The only reason we had more trouble with 25m than 10m (besides carrying bads) is that it was difficult to keep 25 people playing for a few hours, and even more difficult to get them back the next day to continue/attempt progression content since we always had a handful of PUGs.

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Merusk
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Reply #882 on: July 08, 2014, 08:22:27 PM

The blood queen and frost dragon in wotlk were also harder in 25 because of people who couldn't understand where to go.  My guild  lee through 10 man on those fights weeks before 25, and only after some of the deadlier derps missed the first kill.

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Reply #883 on: July 08, 2014, 08:32:42 PM

Blood Queen was easy if you had the specific addon for her that whispered each person and told them who to bite. If you didn't it was an absolute clusterfuck; if you got the biting right the fight was REALLY easy so everyone always wanted to do her on HM.

I'm not sure which frost dragon you're talking about, Sindragosa (ICC) or Sapphiron (Naxx). Sapph was easy if you had someone competent to decurse, and DBM handled the ice blocking shit well. Sindy was a fucking nightmare in 25m but we had a lot of trouble with her in 10m too; IIRC it took us longer (in terms of weeks of attempts) to kill her than the Lich King himself. I forgot how awful that fight was, fuck. It was really shitty because as a DK tank, my job was easy and I just had to hope the DPS could juggle the stupid debuff stacks in P3 properly.

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luckton
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Reply #884 on: July 08, 2014, 08:36:51 PM

I remember the days of Wrath when someone came up with the telegraph addon. Maybe Bliz should either allow it to exist again or just implement it themselves in light of the popularity of their newest competitor  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Reply #885 on: July 08, 2014, 08:37:27 PM

Sindragosa was probably the single hardest fight for our guild out of the raids we did. That or some of the stuff in the level 70 version of Zul'Aman, but that was more a matter of not being tuned for the gear level we had.

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Rendakor
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Reply #886 on: July 08, 2014, 08:42:49 PM

25m Faction Champions was the only thing we had more trouble on. Our guild stopped doing 25m raids during ToC because of that fucking fight; too random and requiring too much personal responsibility, plus people kept trying to do it in fucking PVP gear.

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Reply #887 on: July 08, 2014, 08:43:35 PM

Blood queen problem was even when you had that addon, it still relied on people being competent enough to avoid fire, find the victim and hit the hot button.  Didn't help that popular addons like bartender would regularly fuck up, or so those who failed to bite and killed us all would say. " I swear the bar never changed. This is bs!"  

I meant Sindragosa.  I'd forgotten about the one in Naxx but it was derptastic on 25 too. So many morons failing to get behind the ice walls.  So many concerned with that extra 3 seconds of deeps.

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Reply #888 on: July 08, 2014, 09:24:04 PM

Faction Champs might be my favorite fight in all of the WoW raiding I did. Top 5, anyway. That fight was so much fun!

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Sjofn
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Reply #889 on: July 08, 2014, 10:27:58 PM

fucking sindragosa

fucking sindragosa

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SurfD
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Reply #890 on: July 08, 2014, 10:37:24 PM

fucking sindragosa

fucking sindragosa
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Reply #891 on: July 08, 2014, 11:52:47 PM

arghghghghghghghghgh

 Cry

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Reply #892 on: July 09, 2014, 06:04:22 AM

I forgot Sindragosa. What a shitty unfun fight that was. My most hated tankswap fight because my OT was terrible.

But yeah, back on subject 25-man fights were easier if it was more of a general skill/DPS check. If it was a fight that ONE person who WASN'T the tank could wipe the whole raid on then it was typically a nightmare in 25-man.

Probably the two worst encounters in the game (from the content I played, meaning MoP/most of Cata is out) where THAT GUY could wipe the raid over and over were Archmonde and Gorefiend. If THAT GUY didn't hit his tears at the right time and cratered it was a wipe, if THAT GUY got picked for ghosts it was a wipe.

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Hutch
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Reply #893 on: July 09, 2014, 07:35:31 AM

Sindragosa was one of the first fights where I noticed that DBM wasn't doing anything for me (as a dps), that Blizzard wasn't already doing. Every move was telegraphed by her vocal warnings, you just had to learn which ones were which.

Every once in a while I have to pay attention to something from DBM, usually when the raid leader has given me a particular job. Gong-ringing, conveyor belt, etc.

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Reply #894 on: July 09, 2014, 03:05:33 PM

WotLK was about when they got good enough at various raid-y things that a lot of the mods were semi-redundant. I am pretty sure I only used Recount in Naxx and Ulduar, and I only had that installed because it made splitting up groups easier.

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Reply #895 on: July 09, 2014, 08:00:22 PM

Whatever that one mod was that could draw on the 3d space in the world owned really hard and let us drag some really bad players through stuff like Putricide and LK until Blizz killed it.

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Rendakor
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Reply #896 on: July 09, 2014, 08:04:27 PM

WotLK was about when they got good enough at various raid-y things that a lot of the mods were semi-redundant. I am pretty sure I only used Recount in Naxx and Ulduar, and I only had that installed because it made splitting up groups easier.
The default debuff UI was always shit, so most people needed either DBM or Power Auras to let them know they were the guy who had to run out or whatever. Recount was also very useful for progression attempts because of the death tracker; being able to tell everyone exactly how they died helped our guys improve a lot. "You stood in fire" vs "No one healed you for 8 seconds as you took unavoidable damage" is huge.

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Reply #897 on: July 09, 2014, 09:43:09 PM

Whatever that one mod was that could draw on the 3d space in the world owned really hard and let us drag some really bad players through stuff like Putricide and LK until Blizz killed it.
Yep, I remember that boss mod.  Think that is as close as they have ever come to having a boss mod that could practically play the game for you.  Given how totally trivial it made most encounters I can totally see why blizzard locked it down pretty hard.

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Wizgar
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Reply #898 on: July 13, 2014, 01:32:33 AM

So what do you suggest they replace it with?

I'd design each raid initially as a raid-sized Scenario and make that the new LFR. No required roles, no lengthy queue. I'd even put in a battleground-style graveyard that would rez people mid-fight and let them just zerg shit down. Doing damage, healing, and succeeding at mechanics specific to the encounter would all increase your chance at loot, such that a player would only be hurting themselves if they spent 50% of the time dead or standing in the corner waiting to be carried.

Then I'd let some interns turn those resources into a "real raid" for the 1 out of every 10 players or whatever that even gives a shit about that sort of thing.
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Reply #899 on: July 13, 2014, 03:39:07 AM

I'm guessing that you never played GW2, or if you did that you never ran any of the dungeons?

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Reply #900 on: July 13, 2014, 02:52:32 PM

GW2's dungeons are bad, but the roleless dungeons (the "tactical" ones) work fine in SWTOR. It can be done, it's actually much easier in games like WoW where classes have a larger number of tools rather than GW2's very prescribed builds.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #901 on: July 13, 2014, 07:24:54 PM

GW2 dungeons would be fine if shit didn't two-hit half the party.  I can do epic things out in the world, but in a dungeon I'm nothing but fodder.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Wizgar
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Reply #902 on: July 13, 2014, 07:39:38 PM

Honestly it's all just pushing 12341234 and remembering not to stand in things, especially at the easymode random queue LFR/LFD level. Get rid of role dependance at that level and get my queue down from 30 minutes to 30 seconds. Let the cool kids in their "real" raids worry about finding tanks. I'm stuck in a loser guild because the GM is a friend of my wife, and I'm antisocial as hell in these games anyway. Just let me play.
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Reply #903 on: July 14, 2014, 06:18:32 AM

Part of the reason I didn't like doing LFR is because tanks still have to be the only ones who really know the fights, and if they don't they get blamed by all the others in the raid. You're still the defacto leaders, whereas a dps can show up knowing fuckall and be just fine.

If I was tanking, I wanted to do it with at least 4-5 other friends to even out the responsibility.

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Ironwood
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Reply #904 on: July 14, 2014, 08:43:28 AM

Yeah.  And even if you're required to know it, you can usually pick it up or learn it without too much scathe.

Not so as the tank.


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Reply #905 on: July 14, 2014, 01:03:16 PM

That's one of the nice things about the tactical dungeons in SWTOR, I suppose, I can sign up as a tank and no one expects me to lead shit, because they're designed so you don't HAVE to have one (basically it's nice to have, but not required ... same with healers!). So I can work on howdoesthisclassworkagain on a tank I haven't played in three months without feeling bad.  why so serious?

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Reply #906 on: July 14, 2014, 02:38:50 PM

Yeah.  I was quite surprised at that in SWOTOR.

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Reply #907 on: July 14, 2014, 04:06:21 PM

SWTOR has actually improved the genre in a lot of ways, which is sort of shocking given how quickly it went F2P, and how quickly they dumped their entire selling point of the game.

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Reply #908 on: July 14, 2014, 09:54:28 PM

Aren't swtor tactical flashpoints basically WOW scenarios (3 random players together, no tank/healer req'd)? The normal scenarios are extremely easy, but the heroic scenarios are at least moderately challenging for the appropriate gear level. They may become more relevant if Blizz adds that level/gear-scaling 'timewalker' system they've been working on for a while -- anyone got any info on that, btw?

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Reply #909 on: July 14, 2014, 11:00:07 PM

They're regular group sized (4) and if you have decent gear you can duo them with 2 players/2 companions.

In general I give the credit for that particular feature to LotRO's skirmishes.

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