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Author Topic: Diablo 3: Reaper of Souls  (Read 367007 times)
Malakili
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Reply #140 on: August 22, 2013, 02:49:36 PM


Am I missing anything?

They are adding a new Paladin like class that will almost certainly be worst than the actual Paladin was in Diablo 2, you forgot that.
Ingmar
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Reply #141 on: August 22, 2013, 03:03:37 PM

I dunno, I bet this one won't stunlock itself to death at release.

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Reply #142 on: August 22, 2013, 03:08:08 PM

I'm going to just skip Schild being wrong and say that the braintrust behind POE are a talented and smart bunch and I'd love to see them get a bunch of money to make something that isn't so fucking ugly looking and feeling. They innovated a good deal of shit that works well and is cool and nobody does that anymore.
TONS ON TONS of indie houses "do that" these days. TONS. Actually, basically all of them. That's what indie is - trying to innovate and do cool stuff without having your head shoved directly up your ass. Of course, not being ugly and feeling ugly tends to be the difference between a good indie house and a bad indie house.

Maybe with money, they could get their shit together. But that skill system, along with honestly, the entire way items are structured leads me to believe their designers have their heads firmly shoved up their collective asses. It's an impenetrable mess with no meaningful choices if you want to play the game "right."

I'm sorry, but Diablo was never about playing it "right," it was about having fun. Diablo 2 is FUN. Diablo 3 isn't much fun. PoE is more fun than Diablo 3, but that's a failure of Diablo 3, not a success of PoE.

On that note, what was I wrong about? I'd really like to know, as I've logged a number of hours with PoE and find it painstakingly poorly structured.
Ironwood
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Reply #143 on: August 22, 2013, 04:17:16 PM

I dunno, I bet this one won't stunlock itself to death at release.

That was funny.  Or, well, not really.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
MournelitheCalix
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Reply #144 on: August 22, 2013, 06:16:18 PM

I bought D3 at the beginning, played it, beat it, tried nightmare, and quit before Belial because I found it punishing without reward.  I thought it was a terribly tedious, disappointing experience.  I would like to submit that one of the early problems was that none of the character classes reached out and grabbed me and I wasn't the only one.   I remember seeing that complaint an awful lot from others as well.  I would like to submit that this is probably one of the problems that they can't overcome.  Blizzard for whatever reason seems allergic to bringing back things people liked.  I would have loved to see the Necromancer back and so would many other people, again, Blizzard seems to be totally adverse to this idea (no idea why either).

After seeing the thread about reaper of souls and being bored out of my mind, I loaded it back up to see if it was as bad as it was.  To be clear I expected to log in, get smeared into paste with crappy little piddly blues and whites drop and uninstall.  That is not what happened.  Here is the good news, the game seems to be to be greatly improved.  A lot of the problems that I found had completely crippled the game is not there anymore.  My character isn't laughed at by every hostile encounter.  This is good as more play styles appear to be functional all the way into inferno.  I actually had fun going through nightmare, hell and now beginning inferno.  



/shrug, played through the game on every difficulty with all but one class up to 60 and got 2 legendaries the whole time.

I was like you in that I played, didn't get the fat lewt everyone else did, and quit because every piece I did get was crap and I found myself trying like hell to first craft without success and finally I just gave up because I wasn't going to grind my way to auction house gold, I will be damned before I pay any real money, and finally I didn't desire to do the same point and click motions ad naseum until one piece of fat lewt dropped.  F, that I got better things to do.  The good news is in one play through to inferno and a barbarian play through to nightmare I have had 7 legendary drops actually drop.  Shockingly (sarcasm intended) 5 have been abject pieces of crap with random stats that the character couldn't benefit from.  Two however have been simply stunning in that they came at an unexpected time and I could use them.  One I expect to use through most of the hell difficulty it is just that stunning a belt for a barbarian.  

The point is I think this has actually been addressed because I am unlucky as hell (no pun intended) and I am getting drops.  Which by the way with all the genuflecting to D2 that is being done I never got a drop in hundreds of runs on demons that my character could use (but I got a ton that other classes that I never played could use consistently).  I prefer this part of the loot system in D3 to D2.  Yeah this loot system isn't perfect, far from it in fact.  The way it released at release was inexcusable but at least now you have a chance at finding things for your character and that alone is a big improvement over that craptastic feature of the D2 loot system.  In all honestly thank F'ing god for Jamella, only damn way you could get loot for your character was to upload it to that program and then transfer.



Further observations:

4.  The cinematics in D3 were bad and dumb.  Probably the first time ever playing a Blizzard game where I wasn't blown away by one of the cinematics or exclaiming "oh snap" and snapping my fingers with a sassy urban zeal.  I understand it's an ARPG and Diablo was never heavy on intricate story.  I don't need intricate story.  The game is about killing satan, give me one epic cinematic per Act please.  The chick was stupid.  Plus, every single one of the plot advancing sequences where they sharted out some rough sketches on what looked like brown toilet paper was boring.

Its really funny I was just thinking as I was viewing them again that the cinematic where Leah gets visited by the prime evils in the stone and the lone remaining one Asmodan was the single most impressive cinematic that I have seen in a game.  It was certainly better than that annoying crazy man from D2 rambling all the time and not being killed off for simply being jar jar's insane Diablo world equivalent.  However one thing really did bother me and for a while I couldn't put my finger on it.  Then it kind of hit me on my barbarian play through where no one including both Deckard Caine and Tyreal seemed to remember that the barbarian was the same one from D2, what bothered me was that Leah was in all of them and not your character.   This seems like a strange decision to me because its not like you can customize your looks past male or female.  Why isn't your character in the cinematics?  Strange decision to say the least since your kind of important to their "story."
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 06:31:03 PM by MournelitheCalix »

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Reply #145 on: August 22, 2013, 06:25:14 PM

I'm going to just skip Schild being wrong and say that the braintrust behind POE are a talented and smart bunch and I'd love to see them get a bunch of money to make something that isn't so fucking ugly looking and feeling. They innovated a good deal of shit that works well and is cool and nobody does that anymore.
TONS ON TONS of indie houses "do that" these days. TONS. Actually, basically all of them. That's what indie is - trying to innovate and do cool stuff without having your head shoved directly up your ass. Of course, not being ugly and feeling ugly tends to be the difference between a good indie house and a bad indie house.

You may be right about that. I was under the impression they were making mostly pretentious arty shit that isn't fun and instead is supposed to blur the lines of what gaming means or some tripe like that.

If they aren't doing that they are making games that only work as a very tiny very limited fun little experience. Like Hotline Miami or Frozen Synapse or Magika pretty cool and new and fun but you wouldn't play it for an extended period of time and I doubt those games could get away with a campaign that look as long to play through as a "real" game.

Bastion might be an exception? Maybe there are lots of them and I just don't know it.

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lamaros
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Reply #146 on: August 22, 2013, 06:52:07 PM

I've never played D3 and I'm bored.

But might some of the issues here be because these designers are too busy trying to re-create D1 and D2 with new shine etc and forgetting that D1 and D2 were more inspired by Roguelikes than they were by themselves? Sit them down with Nethack for a while so they can rediscover the environment that made this stuff fun in the first place.

/ignorantblather
Ratman_tf
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Reply #147 on: August 22, 2013, 06:59:54 PM

 Why isn't your character in the cinematics?  Strange decision to say the least since your kind of important to their "story."

Protip: Your character is not important to the story. The story is about Leah. You're just the guy clicking the button until her next cutscene.



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Reply #148 on: August 22, 2013, 07:12:50 PM

I've never played D3 and I'm bored.

But might some of the issues here be because these designers are too busy trying to re-create D1 and D2 with new shine etc and forgetting that D1 and D2 were more inspired by Roguelikes than they were by themselves? Sit them down with Nethack for a while so they can rediscover the environment that made this stuff fun in the first place.

/ignorantblather

If they were trying to recreate D1 and D2 they made and awful lot of odd decisions.

lamaros
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Reply #149 on: August 22, 2013, 07:24:20 PM

I've never played D3 and I'm bored.

But might some of the issues here be because these designers are too busy trying to re-create D1 and D2 with new shine etc and forgetting that D1 and D2 were more inspired by Roguelikes than they were by themselves? Sit them down with Nethack for a while so they can rediscover the environment that made this stuff fun in the first place.

/ignorantblather

If they were trying to recreate D1 and D2 they made and awful lot of odd decisions.



Yeah. But maybe they were looking at them and going "oh, everyone loves D2 - so if we just take that and 'update' a few things it'll be great". Except because they never played the classics they changed all the fundamental things rather than the shit that was just polish.
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Reply #150 on: August 22, 2013, 07:33:20 PM

Taking D2 and updating a few things gives you POE or TL2. Not D3.

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Reply #151 on: August 22, 2013, 07:45:40 PM

Taking D2 and updating a few things gives you POE or TL2. Not D3.
If POE was straight D2 with upgrades, I'd be playing that pretttttttttttty hardcore.

It's not, that's a big part of the problem. It's an indie wank feverdream version.
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Reply #152 on: August 22, 2013, 07:47:16 PM

POE is the game I wanted from a D2 sequel. YMMV.

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Reply #153 on: August 23, 2013, 12:28:43 AM

 Why isn't your character in the cinematics?  Strange decision to say the least since your kind of important to their "story."

Protip: Your character is not important to the story. The story is about Leah. You're just the guy clicking the button until her next cutscene.
Blizzard had this problem a lot recently (fuck you, Harrison Jones and hope you die in 5.4, Thrall). They seems to have realised it was dumb during MoP development and put the protagonist label back on the PC there, so it's not entirely out of the question that they might do the same in RoS.

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Reply #154 on: August 23, 2013, 01:01:35 AM

I've never played D3 and I'm bored.

But might some of the issues here be because these designers are too busy trying to re-create D1 and D2 with new shine etc and forgetting that D1 and D2 were more inspired by Roguelikes than they were by themselves? Sit them down with Nethack for a while so they can rediscover the environment that made this stuff fun in the first place.

/ignorantblather
[/quote

If they were trying to recreate D1 and D2 they made and awful lot of odd decisions.



Yeah. But maybe they were looking at them and going "oh, everyone loves D2 - so if we just take that and 'update' a few things it'll be great". Except because they never played the classics they changed all the fundamental things rather than the shit that was just polish.

Nope, that's not the issue with D3 at all. Too much was changed in the name of 'ease of access', balance and incredibly poor storytelling. Too many lessons were carried over from WoW without Blizzard realising those lessons don't apply in ARPGs.
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Reply #155 on: August 23, 2013, 02:55:43 AM


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Reply #156 on: August 23, 2013, 05:34:22 AM

Its really funny I was just thinking as I was viewing them again that the cinematic where Leah gets visited by the prime evils in the stone and the lone remaining one Asmodan was the single most impressive cinematic that I have seen in a game.  It was certainly better than that annoying crazy man from D2 rambling all the time and not being killed off for simply being jar jar's insane Diablo world equivalent.  However one thing really did bother me and for a while I couldn't put my finger on it.  Then it kind of hit me on my barbarian play through where no one including both Deckard Caine and Tyreal seemed to remember that the barbarian was the same one from D2, what bothered me was that Leah was in all of them and not your character.   This seems like a strange decision to me because its not like you can customize your looks past male or female.  Why isn't your character in the cinematics?  Strange decision to say the least since your kind of important to their "story."
Eh? Where did it say that your barb is the one from D2? I might not be remembering the barbarian's opening or something if he says so.

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Maledict
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Reply #157 on: August 23, 2013, 05:44:36 AM

The most impressive cynamatic Blizzard ever did for me was the end of Act 2 in Diablo 2, in Tal Rasha's tomb. Tyrael in all his glory, Ball and the hellfire, and then that awesome cut away : 'Fool! You have doomed this world and everything on it!'

Blizzard haven't done any cinematic as good as that one since - although obviously the visual quality has significantly improved, the story boarding seems to have decreased in quality.
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Reply #158 on: August 23, 2013, 05:47:45 AM

Its really funny I was just thinking as I was viewing them again that the cinematic where Leah gets visited by the prime evils in the stone and the lone remaining one Asmodan was the single most impressive cinematic that I have seen in a game.  It was certainly better than that annoying crazy man from D2 rambling all the time and not being killed off for simply being jar jar's insane Diablo world equivalent.  However one thing really did bother me and for a while I couldn't put my finger on it.  Then it kind of hit me on my barbarian play through where no one including both Deckard Caine and Tyreal seemed to remember that the barbarian was the same one from D2, what bothered me was that Leah was in all of them and not your character.   This seems like a strange decision to me because its not like you can customize your looks past male or female.  Why isn't your character in the cinematics?  Strange decision to say the least since your kind of important to their "story."
Eh? Where did it say that your barb is the one from D2? I might not be remembering the barbarian's opening or something if he says so.

D3 cinematics were a lot of Leah flitting around with Deckard Cain like a cutesey episode of Blue's Clues while she lovingly chided Cain.  "Oh, Grandpa you're so incorrigible!" 
Malakili
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Reply #159 on: August 23, 2013, 06:14:53 AM

The most impressive cynamatic Blizzard ever did for me was the end of Act 2 in Diablo 2, in Tal Rasha's tomb. Tyrael in all his glory, Ball and the hellfire, and then that awesome cut away : 'Fool! You have doomed this world and everything on it!'

Blizzard haven't done any cinematic as good as that one since - although obviously the visual quality has significantly improved, the story boarding seems to have decreased in quality.

That one always sticks in my mind as well.  There are some other good ones.  Corrupted Arthas returning to "succeed" his father as King in Warcraft 3, for example.  This one too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V1PwpoDqzM
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Reply #160 on: August 23, 2013, 09:05:15 AM

cynamatic

What happened here?

D3 cinematics were a lot of Leah flitting around with Deckard Cain like a cutesey episode of Blue's Clues while she lovingly chided Cain.  "Oh, Grandpa you're so incorrigible!" 

Heh.  Yep, that was dumb.

On that note, what was I wrong about? I'd really like to know, as I've logged a number of hours with PoE and find it painstakingly poorly structured.

I have thought about this since yesterday and I don't think you're wrong about anything.  I do happen to enjoy the goldless item system in PoE, in relation to all of my alternatives, but I think it's just a preference rather than me doing some sort of analysis of itemization.  Yep, it could be tightened up but it's not awful.  The afixes could use some updating as well, in my opinion, but overall I'm just not thinking about it that much and I'm working with what I find.

The sphere grid is something that I tolerate for the sake of the materia system and no-gold initiative; as you know, I prefer a open skill system as seen in Fate.  No one does this now, however, and so in the end the PoE sphere grid isn't any worse to me than the D2/D3 skill tree.

Combat feel, or lack of, is something I also bear with while I'm waiting for an alternative that isn't D3 or TQ.  Grim Dawn?  Maybe, but if there's any ARPG out there that qualifies as fugly, it's Grim Dawn.  I might as well just make a fighter-mage or necro-druid in TQ and get angry at that game's itemization rather than play Grim Dawn.

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waffel
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Reply #161 on: August 23, 2013, 09:19:50 AM

Some good general info here:

Quote
Loot Runs: 15-20 min multi-tiered sub-dungeons, fully randomized (map types/layouts/monsters), customized environment/weather/lighting, boss at end

Nephilim Trials: portals randomly spawn in world, time attack challenge vs waves of increasingly harder monsters, rewards = multiple resplendent chests, story context = ancient nephilim left tests of strength

Loot/Paragon 2.0/LootRun/Nephilim Trial (etc) will be implemented as a pre-expansion 2.0 patch. Expansion required for Crusader, level 70, Act 5, Mystic (subject to change).
PVP: in progress

Act 5 similar to Act 2 length-wise

Newly created Crusader characters will start at Act 1 normal

Level cap raised to 70, existing 5 classes get new skills/runes/passives

5th gem, Diamond: helm = +% cooldown reduction, weapon = +% elite damage, armor = +all resist

Toughness above Damage (in inventory) represents effective HP

All drops have a chance to be a "smart drop" item, rolled item affixes are relevant to currently played class, smart drop item affixes are preceded by a yellow circle, Binds On Account

Drop rate tweaks (based on paragon 40 character in Act 3):
whites 256 > 73 (~71% drop)
blues 399 > 266 (~33% drop)
rares 275 > 83 (~70% drop)
legendaries 1 > 6 (~500% increase)

Legendaries re-designed to be build changers instead of stat-sticks, there will still be extremely powerful items with low drop rates

Salvage reagants: whites = ghost essence, shadow rares (Act 5 rares) = shadow stone

Mystic artisan NPC:
Transmogrify: changes gear appearance, costs: 1 demonic essence, 1 fiery brimstone, 1 shadow stone
Enchanting: re-rolls 1 item affix, costs: 1 demonic essence, 1 ghost essence, 1 gem (any, higher tier = better roll)

Paragon levels now account-wide, softcore/hardcore paragon levels are seperated, dead hardcore characters will count towards paragon level, no paragon level cap, current plan is to have total paragon of all current characters = expansion paragon (subject to change), spent paragon points can be reset

Paragon points:
Core tab - Int/Str/Dex/Vit, 50 points max each, 1 point invested = +5 stat (+250 each stat max)
Attack tab - attack speed, crit chance, crit damage, cooldown reduction
Defense tab - all resist, armor, dodge%
Utility tab - movespeed, pickup radius (no MF/GF?)

Crusader class-specific gear: Flails (1 hand weapon, holy element only?), Crusader Shields

http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/1kxeb8/the_crusader_can_wield_a_2h_weapon_on_one_hand/cbtofv4
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 09:21:24 AM by waffel »
Malakili
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Reply #162 on: August 23, 2013, 09:54:45 AM

I wonder if Paragon points raising things like crit will allow more flexibility in gearing, especially because I understand they will be freely respecable.  You could imagine equipping a piece of gear which lacks something but filling in the gap with Paragon points.  Of course, it might also just be that they aren't interesting either and are just all put into the same things.
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Reply #163 on: August 23, 2013, 01:09:22 PM

Still the same boring stats and gems then. Give them another 4-5 years and maybe they'll have cleaned up their boring mess.
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Reply #164 on: August 23, 2013, 01:42:56 PM

Quote
5th gem, Diamond: helm = +% cooldown reduction, weapon = +% elite damage, armor = +all resist

Quote
Mystic artisan NPC:

Enchanting: re-rolls 1 item affix, costs: 1 demonic essence, 1 ghost essence, 1 gem (any, higher tier = better roll)

Not great, but good enough.  If they have the gem component in the Enchanting recipe effect the out come of the re-roll toward the items-affix of that included gem that would be even better (e.g. a Diamond gem would give a higher percentage chance of getting a +all Resist affix).  So much good armor is crap because of no +all

Edit: technically I'm shunning you, but my sentence was crap.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 03:05:47 PM by Typhon »
Ingmar
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Reply #165 on: August 23, 2013, 01:50:55 PM

The armor version of diamond appears to be non-percentage based. So you don't have to worry about having +all on there already to make a diamond useful.

EDIT: Also I think I misread you, MOVE ALONG.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 02:28:55 PM by Ingmar »

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Segoris
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Reply #166 on: August 23, 2013, 02:23:18 PM

Did they show how the Mystic works yet? I'm curious if the player chooses the stat they don't like and if they gem they use is what is applied. The way I'm reading it is the affix that is chosen to be rerolled is random, and which gem used doesn'st matter only the quality of it.

Also, for all res, they're reducing the values on gear that will roll. No word on the general amount of the reduction, but the purpose is since currently all res can roll higher than an individual res, so why bother with individual res? The immediate answer is Monks and One With Everything, but that is being nerfed [eventually]. Point being, diamonds will be even more important on gear.
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Reply #167 on: August 25, 2013, 06:34:44 PM

It's been close to a year since I last played D3 so I figured for the sake of science I'd fire it up again.

It's shocking how slow you move and how stupefyingly boring the combat is. It's worse than I even remember.

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Reply #168 on: August 25, 2013, 07:03:32 PM

I accidentally succeeded in making the most boring combat possible, too. Blizzard + disintegrate that simply evaporated anything shy of using the party size mechanics on Inferno
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Reply #169 on: August 25, 2013, 09:47:11 PM

It's been close to a year since I last played D3 so I figured for the sake of science I'd fire it up again.

It's shocking how slow you move and how stupefyingly boring the combat is. It's worse than I even remember.

Yeah, I actually played a little bit recently and kind of felt the same.  I was one of the people defending it (at least partially), but I'm kind of wondering if I was wearing rose-colored glasses.  I should have been blown away by the combat and look+feel after playing POE a lot and... I wasn't.  I mean, it was decent I guess.  It should be way better than decent.
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Reply #170 on: August 26, 2013, 02:18:44 AM

VINDICATED.

 swamp poop

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Reply #171 on: August 26, 2013, 06:11:31 AM

STAY A WHILE, AND NAP.

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Reply #172 on: August 26, 2013, 06:51:31 AM

You just wait until you get reaping.  Oh yes.  It'll be better then.  Much Better.

Reaping.

And whatnot.

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Reply #173 on: August 26, 2013, 07:00:08 AM

I mean, the combat is absolutely the most boring shit ever. Maybe some combination of skills/runes on some class is dynamic or exciting or whatever but it was literally shocking how boring it was.

You move so insanely slow, the enemies don't really do anything you notice unless they're champs and then you just slog through them slightly slower (or die instantly if you get an awesome combo of modifiers). I can't emphasize how fucking slow you move in D3. I thought PoE was kinda slow at times if you were say marauder with heavy armor or whatever but it doesn't hold a candle to how slow-paced D3 is. TL2 is flat out on crack compared to D3 and is a lot more fun and a fundamentally better game.

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Malakili
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Reply #174 on: August 26, 2013, 07:23:44 AM

The speed really is bad.  In fact, pretty much every "ideal" build for a class has some kind of movement speed gear/abilities as standard.  Ostensibly it is so you can farm faster, but I think it is also just because the game plays a lot better at that speed.  Which makes me wonder why the hell they made the default so painfully slow.
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