My Better Movie Metathread

[Margalis]

I don't think you can reboot Star Wars.

You can reboot something like Spider-Man because in comics ret-cons and reboots are already commonplace, comic book stories get altered over time the same way myths do, and the character and broad story points are more important than the exact details. That Spider-Man was bitten by a radioactive spider is pretty important but how exactly he got into that situation is not. That he starts out selfish then becomes a do-gooder after his negligence allows something tragic to happen is important but not exactly how that transpires.

Star Wars has pretty shitty characters and the broad themes are a little too broad, like "good fights evil", so telling a story with the same broad points and characters doesn't amount to much. On the other hand being movie-based it has a lot of memorable scenes that form the basis for fan affection, and changing those would be problematic as they are largely the appeal of the IP.

There's also the fact that comics are generally set in the present day and arguably need updating from time to time - at some point it stops making sense for Iron Man to be tied to Vietnam. But Star Wars is set in an unspecified place and time that is what it is, it can't become outdated.

[Koyasha]

All of that sounds like it could be said about Star Trek, too, but it was rebooted successfully (at least the first movie was successful, I've heard the second isn't so good, but haven't seen it myself).

That said, I'm not really in favor of a Star Wars reboot myself.  I'd rather they just concentrate on different periods of the setting.  After the original trilogy, and before the prequels are all periods that seem like you could set lots of movies in them.  And there's already a lot of stuff established in the EU that they can (carefully) pick through to pull out the good stuff.

[lamaros]

All of that sounds like it could be said about Star Trek, too

Not really.

[ghost]

I don't think they've ever had anything quite this valuable on their hands, as far as a single movie franchise.  I'm don't think you can rule anything out.  They didn't pay that much money for it to put out a bunch of piddly animated stuff.

Keep in mind they bought Marvel for more than they bought Lucas. Additionally, The Mouse is worth quite a lot of coin. Though, both of those are arguably different than Star Wars, of course.

Also, they aren't going to do just animated stuff, we already know that. They're making new movies.

Dude, it's completely different.  Neither Marvel or their own in-house IP are a single movie franchise, like Star Wars.  

I don't think you can reboot Star Wars.

You can reboot something like Spider-Man because in comics ret-cons and reboots are already commonplace

Have you read the New Jedi Order series?  No retcons there....


Addendum-  you guys are putting arbitrary limits on the stupidity that can be induced by the prospect of trashbags full of money.  And a reboot isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I, for one, really like the new Star Trek movies.  Changes with technology in the past 10 years have been significant and can make a big difference to a shitty story with the right directors and actors. 

[sickrubik]

I don't think they've ever had anything quite this valuable on their hands, as far as a single movie franchise.  I'm don't think you can rule anything out.  They didn't pay that much money for it to put out a bunch of piddly animated stuff.

Keep in mind they bought Marvel for more than they bought Lucas. Additionally, The Mouse is worth quite a lot of coin. Though, both of those are arguably different than Star Wars, of course.

Also, they aren't going to do just animated stuff, we already know that. They're making new movies.

Dude, it's completely different.  Neither Marvel or their own in-house IP are a single movie franchise, like Star Wars.  

"Marvel" is not a single movie franchise, nor is "Disney", but both have incredibly valuable individual franchises. If you're going to say "Marvel" and "Disney", you have to say "Lucasfilm". I don't think it's QUITE as different as you make it out to be, honestly.

[ghost]

"Marvel" is not a single movie franchise, nor is "Disney", but both have incredibly valuable individual franchises. If you're going to say "Marvel" and "Disney", you have to say "Lucasfilm". I don't think it's QUITE as different as you make it out to be, honestly.

Well, you were the one that compared Marvel and Disney to Star Wars, not me.  And Lucasfilm is almost 100% Star Wars-  a big difference.  Out of Marvel you get Woverine and Xmen and Spiderman and Captain America and Thor and Iron Man.....

[sickrubik]

I only used Marvel as shorthand, but I can see where things got crossed.

[ghost]

Yeah.  My point is that it's a shit ton of money for IP and you can be sure that Disney is going to milk it for everything they can.  Because of that fact alone I wouldn't rule out a reboot. 

[sickrubik]

Disney doesn't really do that. I mean they milk shit, sure, but it's never in that context. They make cheap direct-to-dvd stuff, but they are pretty specifically not a reboot thing, considering how vertically integrated they are. They would have to change all their Star Wars stuff as it is, and they just did that for Star Tours.

[Ingmar]

Yeah if it was some other studio I wouldn't blink at the idea of them rebooting it, but this is Disney, they treat their top-end stuff like museum pieces and make a shitload of money doing so. They'll happily make a billion spin-offs direct to DVD but I don't see them messing with the core too much.

[Margalis]

Have you read the New Jedi Order series?  No retcons there....

Is that irrelevant EU bullshit? EU is just fan-fiction, what happens in it is completely irrelevant.

All of that sounds like it could be said about Star Trek, too, but it was rebooted successfully (at least the first movie was successful, I've heard the second isn't so good, but haven't seen it myself).

By the time Star Trek was rebooted it existed as 5 or so different TV series and 8 or so movies - I'm talking only canonical TV and film stuff, not cartoons or comics or books. In addition the reboot isn't even a real reboot, it has Original Formula Spock and an attempt to square it with classic Trek. It's essentially an extended alternate universe / time travel plot - a plot quite common in Trek. (I assume this alternate branch will end as soon as this set of movies does)

In addition I don't think Star Trek really has a lot of classic scenes or individual lines and that's not why people like Trek. The core of Trek is more a philosophy and an approach to science fiction storytelling than any particular story or characters. My point about Star Wars is that it's not really about anything other than the particular story and characters contained within. Star Wars is the cantina scene plus the Slave Leia scene plus Darth Vader choking a dude plus the trash compactor etc etc, which is why other stories set in the same universe have mostly failed. There's nothing particularly interesting about the fiction as a whole.

In short I would say that Star Trek is organized around a concept, whereas Star Wars is organized around a specific set of narrative beats.

This has been a huge problem for Star Wars games, they use very similar characters and settings regardless of what time period or location they ostensibly take place in. Star Wars doesn't really have Bounty Hunters, it has Boba Fett, so most bounty hunters in Star Wars are Boba Fett variants. You can write a game that takes place 1000 years in the past with a different set of characters and the tech is all the same and a dude force chokes another dude - it's all based on "hey remember how this happened in the movies?"

[ghost]

This has been a huge problem for Star Wars games, they use very similar characters and settings regardless of what time period or location they ostensibly take place in. Star Wars doesn't really have Bounty Hunters, it has Boba Fett, so most bounty hunters in Star Wars are Boba Fett variants. You can write a game that takes place 1000 years in the past with a different set of characters and the tech is all the same and a dude force chokes another dude - it's all based on "hey remember how this happened in the movies?"

This is so true.  It would actually be nice if Disney would come up with some decent story lines that had absolutely nothing to do with the Empire or Palapatine or the Skywalkers.  The universe could actually lend itself to some pretty decent adult level story lines, as well. 

As for the EU stuff, it may be irrelevant, but it's still out there.  The purists who don't like anything but episodes IV-VI may ignore it, but it still exists.  I think that Disney will have a hard time reincarnating Chewbacca.  I guess it's possible.

[Merusk]

Disney made a statement after they bought LucasFilm that the EU was scrapped except for choice characters they would bring-in to their narrative.  They will write Episodes 7-9 in the fashion they choose using the character back stories they want.

Chewbacca never died.

[Ingmar]

Disney made a statement after they bought LucasFilm that the EU was scrapped except for choice characters they would bring-in to their narrative.  They will write Episodes 7-9 in the fashion they choose using the character back stories they want.

Chewbacca never died.

They didn't say that, they just said they weren't going to feel bound by EU stuff if there was a change they wanted to make. That already happened with the 2nd Lucas trilogy anyway. It's hardly scrapped, especially pre-movie timeline parts.

[ghost]

The EU stuff is so convoluted and contradictory anyway that I think it would be tough to make it all match up. 

[Ratman_tf]

They're not going to reboot Star Wars.

Place your bets!

[Lakov_Sanite]

They're not going to reboot Star Wars.

Place your bets!

Not in the next 20 years anyways.

[Ratman_tf]

They're not going to reboot Star Wars.

Place your bets!

Not in the next 20 years anyways.

I can see it in 6.

[ghost]

Why 6?  Revenge of the Sith was in 2005.  That means there are third through sixth graders that may not know enough about Star Wars to buy figures and Legos and all that bullshit. 

I can only assume that Disney is going to go for broke with their first effort and put out a quality film.  Because of reasons discussed before, i.e. there's really only one Star Wars story, they may resort to a reboot, at least of the original films.  I could see them doing 4-6 again first.  That might piss some people off and it would be a big risk, but it could be ridiculously lucrative if they could pull it off.  I'm sure it has been discussed within their organization. 

[eldaec]

Disney made a statement after they bought LucasFilm that the EU was scrapped except for choice characters they would bring-in to their narrative.  They will write Episodes 7-9 in the fashion they choose using the character back stories they want.

Chewbacca never died.

They didn't say that, they just said they weren't going to feel bound by EU stuff if there was a change they wanted to make. That already happened with the 2nd Lucas trilogy anyway. It's hardly scrapped, especially pre-movie timeline parts.

It has been scrapped for all practical purposes by hiring JJ Abrams and Michael Arndt. I cannot for the life of me imagine either one of them even looking the Yuzhan Vong up, let alone respecting Mara Jade's beverage preferences.

I imagine they'll do want Abrams did on trek. Hire an editor in charge of bullshit fan service and have him sprinkle tribble references over the script once the real writers have the story locked down.

[Ingmar]

Lucas wouldn't have done those things either. EU shit has always been 'canon until they ignore it' at best.

[Ratman_tf]

Why 6?  Revenge of the Sith was in 2005.  That means there are third through sixth graders that may not know enough about Star Wars to buy figures and Legos and all that bullshit.  

I can see SW7 coming out in a few years: It doesn't flop, but it doesn't break a billion, so it's considered a flop. Disney then decides that Star Wars isn't hip enough, and reboots the whole thing.

[Ratman_tf]

I imagine they'll do want Abrams did on trek. Hire an editor in charge of bullshit fan service and have him sprinkle tribble references over the script once the real writers emerge from their cocaine binge/writing session, with a urine soaked script full of nonsense.

[ghost]

I just googled Star Wars VII and something about Ryan Gosling playin Luke Skywalker's son popped up.   

[Merusk]

Why 6?  Revenge of the Sith was in 2005.  That means there are third through sixth graders that may not know enough about Star Wars to buy figures and Legos and all that bullshit.  

I can see SW7 coming out in a few years. It doesn't flop, but it doesn't break a billion, so it's considered a flop. Disney then decides that Star Wars isn't hip enough, and reboots the whole thing.

That's a possibility.  While the first movie was flat-out stated to be a continuation of the original Saga when it was announced, if it doesn't do well enough I can see them changing the plan.

Side discussion at work touched on this today and I'm not the only one who remembers a Disney exec saying along the lines of "We bought it for the Main Characters, not the EU.  We'll use what we want and discard the rest."  a few days after the sale was announced.  I can't find the actual article, though, for all the fanboi tear-wank on the web.

Ed: Found one article where Kasdan talks-around not using the EU.  In Hollywood speak it's as good as a "no."
http://herocomplex.latimes.com/movies/star-wars-writer-lawrence-kasdan-wants-spinoff-film-to-start-fresh/#/0

[Ingmar]

Kasdan's movie isn't even part of the next trilogy, it's a stand-alone. And again, the EU has always been 'until they make a movie that contradicts it.'

[Merusk]

Only because Lucas saw the advantage of creating another license and merchandise revenue stream.

The EU was created to give a place for fan fiction to be published while lining Lucas' pockets.  It's as canon as the strips that ran in the newspaper in the 80's.  In a canonical liturgy it would be below passing comments from George during a drunk interview.

Despite what people desperately keep wanting to believe, it matters not at all. Stormtroopers all being clones and The Clone Wars not being Jedi fighting against some clone army should have driven that home 14 years ago.

[ghost]

How predictable is it that this thread is about Star Wars?

[Ingmar]

Only because Lucas saw the advantage of creating another license and merchandise revenue stream.

The EU was created to give a place for fan fiction to be published while lining Lucas' pockets.  It's as canon as the strips that ran in the newspaper in the 80's.  In a canonical liturgy it would be below passing comments from George during a drunk interview.

Despite what people desperately keep wanting to believe, it matters not at all. Stormtroopers all being clones and The Clone Wars not being Jedi fighting against some clone army should have driven that home 14 years ago.

Well, they did bother enough to maintain a database of EU shit to stop it from contradicting with *itself*, which is a level of effort somewhere above what you're describing. Anyone with a brain had to know that anything happening in a short enough time frame after the movies was eventually doomed, though.

[Khaldun]

Star Wars makes sense as a focus for the thread in that it's a property where a lot of us have "our" version that we think is right and good and then we have the reality which is very unmistakeably not good--just about no one is going to say, "I think 'Phantom Menace' is completely how the saga should have progressed". For the most part, almost everyone even feels that was about Ewoks, which are a good example of the 'my better movie' idea: just about everyone can see that if Ewoks had been Wookies, "Return of the Jedi" would have instantly been 100% better as a film. Apparently even Lucas has conceded that he should have stuck with his original idea to make them Wookies.

Another good example of films (and TV serials) that trigger the "my better movie" instinct are films that are almost great until the ending, and the ending is bad enough that it fucks everything else up. "Dark Knight Rises" would have been way better for me without the ticking time bomb thing at the end--just have Batman return with a good plan for retaking the city and undoing the 'Bane Revolution', make him and the cops smarter, and you can still even have the fake sacrifice/happy ending if you like.

Return of the King would have been better, whether you like or dislike Jackson's take overall on LOTR, with a smoother and more compressed approach to the ending(s).

The Golden Compass is a 'my better movie' that I can just go on and on about because everything they needed to make that a good movie is right there on screen--good casting, good visual direction, but it's all mish-mashed and ham-fisted and gutless where it needed to go balls out and just do Pullman's story the way he wrote it. The ending is the most brutal example of that, though. You could probably recut the whole film and make it significantly better and then fix it entirely if you could get Craig, Kidman and Richards into the studio for one reshoot.