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Author Topic: 5.4 - Needs more kitchen sink  (Read 24365 times)
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #35 on: June 21, 2013, 04:16:39 PM

Wait, I thought all the demons were created by sargeras, not the other way around.

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Reply #36 on: June 21, 2013, 04:20:24 PM

He fought the demons as defender of the Titans or some shit.

Then he got melancholy and decided to turn on the Titans and release all the demons.

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Ingmar
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Reply #37 on: June 21, 2013, 04:20:53 PM

It all got retconned around the creation of the draenei as a player race IIRC.

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Reply #38 on: June 21, 2013, 04:24:15 PM

Yes, which I only know because I remember the bitching about 'destroying the lore' so we could get Alliance Space Goats with fantastic asses.

But who corrupted the old gods!!!

 ACK!

Marty McFly needs to stop leaving his time machine unlocked. That's all I'm saying.

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Reply #39 on: June 21, 2013, 05:02:44 PM

It's old gods all the way down.

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Reply #40 on: June 21, 2013, 05:53:51 PM

No, they weren't eluding to old gods since the very first quest. Yes they probably planned to have it be an old god the whole time but they never eluded to anything except that Sha fed off negative emotions.  That it's another old god imprisoned by titans was likely planned but never really for-shadowed and quite frankly it's a story they've already told in WOTLK with Yogg Saron, it's just lazy storytelling to have another old god being responsible.

It was fun the first time, cool the second but it's really getting old.  Also Garrosh didn't even learn that "demons=bad cause he's doing the exact same thing. 
The sha are the remains of a dead (or "dead") Old God - specifically, the one the Titans killed and they went "Welp that created more problems than it fixed. Just gonna shove them into deep holes in the ground from now on". That's been in MoP since 5.0

I'd like for somebody just to be evil because they are either a dick bent on crushing people, or because they were trying to achieve good through really bad means. Not because they were corrupted by outside forces. Unless you are a demon, you're usually corrupted by some power of the old gods.
You mean like Garrosh is?

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Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 05:56:38 PM

I don't know enough about the Garrosh line, but any time you bring in drinking power from the demon source, that's the corruption well again.

I would rather they just have him act like a douche the whole way into his inevitable grave without any outside influences.

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Reply #42 on: June 21, 2013, 06:03:36 PM

Garrosh sips down the purple drank Y'Shaarj blood in phase three of a three-phase fight as the Final Boss of the Final Raid of the expansion (and even at that point Blizzard are saying "Yep, he's still in control - the blood is a tool, Garrosh is the one using it")

Prior to that point? All pure, uncorrupted Garrosh. The ghetto-isation of the other Horde races in Orgimmar, the nuking of Theramore, the attempt to murder Vol'jin in cold blood, the determination to seize Pandaria for the Horde, the promotion of orcs as the One, True Horde are all him, all by himself.

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Reply #43 on: June 21, 2013, 10:39:02 PM

Then I object to putting the corruption blood portion in at all. Sounds like it was fine having him as a one-dimensional douche.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #44 on: June 22, 2013, 12:08:36 AM

I'd just like to know where in the original campaign it is said that sha=old god.  I'm sure they planned that from the beginning but the entire MOP storyline suggest the land itself manifest negative emotions into reality and that there were titan shenanigans going on. There's nothing that ties the sha to old gods until the later patches.

Also wasn't the old god that the titans killed the one in kalimdor? The one with the giant sword in it's head?

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SurfD
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Reply #45 on: June 22, 2013, 03:34:41 AM

I'd just like to know where in the original campaign it is said that sha=old god.  I'm sure they planned that from the beginning but the entire MOP storyline suggest the land itself manifest negative emotions into reality and that there were titan shenanigans going on. There's nothing that ties the sha to old gods until the later patches.

Also wasn't the old god that the titans killed the one in kalimdor? The one with the giant sword in it's head?
The tie in comes from the exalted with Klaxxi bonus questline, where it is revealed that the Klaxxi worshiped Y'sharraj, the beast with seven heads, who breathed seven breaths, which upon his "death" at the hands of the Titans infected the land with shadow.   That was content available in the launch day Mists expantion.  While it is never outright stated untill later, it is heavily implied from that reference that the Sha are the embodiment of the old god's dying gasp.

Most of the old god linkage is in Shadow of the Empire, trying to remember where the 7 breaths thing comes from.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 03:50:19 AM by SurfD »

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #46 on: June 22, 2013, 08:03:06 AM

Ah well of course it makes sense they would tie it all in together, I have to say though that the old god shit has worn out it's welcome.  Fighting old gods as a major theme of a game is fine and all but it just feels like the same territory is being gone over.  New expansion? New old god!

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Reply #47 on: June 22, 2013, 08:48:52 AM

AFAIK it's the only real pure evil they have in WoW.

They don't seem to want to head down the demonic route for some reason, even though I liked that in TBC.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #48 on: June 22, 2013, 09:00:11 AM

Old gods would be fine if they didn't become some generic boogeyman.  Just coming up with new old gods(hah!) all the time reeks of a monster-of-the-week tv show.  It's a lot like smallville when the first kryptonite powered badguys were a neat idea and then they just kept coming back to it...

Wow doesn't have a list of old gods anywhere do they? I thought there were only six or so.  Wasn't the giant maw in twilight highlands an old god? Was Deathwing posessed by one? There are so many random bits of lore floating around and it's all gotten so confusing.  Some things were old gods, some things were servants of the old gods...OG,OG,OG. It's just blended into "well, I guess an old god did it" which is a terrible, terrible commentary on their story.

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luckton
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Reply #49 on: June 22, 2013, 09:14:15 AM

There are five 'known' Old Gods.

- We killed C'thun in Vanilla
- We killed Yogg-Saron in Wrath
- N'zoth is still buried deep underground.  Reported to have influenced Deathwing, the corruption of the high elfs that turned into Naga, and is currently corrupting the Emerald Dream.  Will more than likely be kicking his ass in the next expansion
- Y'Shaarj was killed by the Titans way back when they were fighting them back during creation.  When Y'Shaarj simply split into 7 lesser beings (which we came to know has the seven Sha 'sins' that we're currently fighting in MoP), the Titans gave up on trying to kill the gods and tried to imprison them instead. 
- As for the fifth, beats me.  I'm just going off of the in-game lorelol.  why so serious?

Why the Titans couldn't stop the old gods without further corruption but we can is derpy.  But anyways, the lore also says that there could be other 'old gods' on planets and areas beyond Azeroth, so don't expect them to go away anytime soon.  Just as we have to have a troll dungeon/raid every expansion, the old gods' influence will be there too.

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Reply #50 on: June 22, 2013, 09:21:15 AM

These discussions about lore always head to a point where I get just  Facepalm about the whole thing.

Since nobody really takes it seriously here, we can discuss it without the crazed nerd factor, but can you imagine the shit they deal with at Blizzcon? I'd never open the floor to questions, and I like to write.

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Reply #51 on: June 22, 2013, 10:27:49 AM

What about that night elf that ran off last expansion?  The jackass xenophobe druid, who then became a boss.  Wasn't he more or less "evil", but he was trying to serve the interests of the night elves as he saw best?
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Reply #52 on: June 22, 2013, 12:30:35 PM

What about that night elf that ran off last expansion?  The jackass xenophobe druid, who then became a boss.  Wasn't he more or less "evil", but he was trying to serve the interests of the night elves as he saw best?

He went crazy, corrupted by the corrupted emerald dream.   In other words. "An old god did it."

 why so serious?
Wow doesn't have a list of old gods anywhere do they? I thought there were only six or so.  Wasn't the giant maw in twilight highlands an old god?

That was the rumor since vanilla, based on the original quest text.  Nobody knew for sure until Cataclysm when the Twilight cult started excavating.  It's just a big servant of the old gods, one of those squid guys, named Shoggoth.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Master's_Glaive

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Reply #53 on: June 22, 2013, 02:03:05 PM

That's Darkshore.  He was talking about Twilight Highlands, The Maw of Madness, which apparently is only a servant to an Old God.

And Paelos, if they didn't want to deal with this shit at Blizzcon then they shouldn't write such shitty lore.

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Reply #54 on: June 22, 2013, 03:31:59 PM

Whoops, yeah. I thought someone mentioned Darkshore's bit and I just misquoted while on the iPad but upon review I see I am just crazy.

Why the Titans couldn't stop the old gods without further corruption but we can is derpy.
(now that I'm on the PC and can quote/ type properly..)

Yeah this is the biggest bit of derp in the whole thing.  I can accept, "Ok, OGs corrupt everything and the seals the Titans built are failing after all these millenia."  Shit's been going sideways on Azeroth, world-breaking forces have rocked the planet since the Burning Legion first helped the Orcs to invade. The equilibrium failed, whatever. It almost makes sense.

That the Titans were so immensely powerful they could shape the entire planet, create life and lock away these forces but couldn't kill them and now we, the cursed offspring of their creations, could is just a bunch of garbage.  It leads you, the player, to make totally asinine assumptions and conclusions like this one at Joystiq.  Curse of the flesh is a self-defense! The Planet is ALIVE!   It's using US to destroy the Titan's awful influence and return to a state of chaos!

 Facepalm

The sad part is.. it's more logical than whatever derp Metzen will eventually shit-out to explain it.  If he does at all. I really want someone here to go to Blizzcon and ask this of the panel this year.  "Why can we kill the Old Gods when the Titans tried and just created the Sha."

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Reply #55 on: June 22, 2013, 07:31:08 PM

Ulduar/Uldum I think imply that the Titans couldn't obliterate the Old Gods since they had infected Azeroth too much and doing so (at least destroying them the way THEY would like to) would destroy their creation.

Why the Titans can't kill OGs is probably easily handwaved away with the Titans having a particular method they like to use to do so.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #56 on: June 22, 2013, 08:12:55 PM

I am to assume the titans are "the final boss" though, since everything seems to be setting up mortals vs gods.

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Reply #57 on: June 22, 2013, 09:09:26 PM

There was an old god in WC3:TFT as well, during the Undead campaign. I'm not sure if that was also Yogg-Saron and Arthas just failed to kill it, or if it was retconned into being something else.

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Reply #58 on: June 23, 2013, 02:18:21 AM

Of course, that always beggs the question:

Why exactly do you make the assumption that "We" have managed to actually "kill" ANY of them?   Has blizzard every been quoted as outright stating that we have actually killed Yogg or C'thun?   I would find it MUCH easier to believe that we basicly just beat the thing back into a semi-dormant state allowing what ever Titan falesafes were in place to clamp back down on them again.

And yeah, considering the old Titan Lore keeper who used to be out front of the broken gates in Tanaris actually stated that our planet had been scheduled for a "revisitation" I completely wouldnt be surprised if the actual Titans themselves show up at some point.  I just hope that when they do, Blizz does not cop out and attempt to let us kill one.  If a Titan is as powerfull as it supposedly should be, it would Crush 40 man raids like bugs.

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Reply #59 on: June 23, 2013, 06:29:15 AM

Of course, that always beggs the question:

Why exactly do you make the assumption that "We" have managed to actually "kill" ANY of them?   Has blizzard every been quoted as outright stating that we have actually killed Yogg or C'thun? 
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=29311/herald-volazj
"They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle".

So yeah - the achievements of the raiders so far are "Beat down a crippled Old God and put back its regeneration a while" and "Beat down a weakened Old God and shoved it back into its prison". We didn't even get to see the Old God who was actually behind Cataclym (only his minions, including Deathwing) and everyone in Pandaria is forced to Think Happy Thoughts all the time in case the remains of the only Old God actually killed so far burst up out of the ground and start wrecking shit.

As for the Titans?

WE HAVE FALLEN. WE MUST REBUILD THE FINAL TITAN. DO NOT FORGET

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #60 on: June 23, 2013, 10:38:39 AM



WE HAVE FALLEN. WE MUST REBUILD THE FINAL TITAN. DO NOT FORGET

That one is easy, it's Wrathion saying that we have fallen. This either means the people of azeroth or the dragons specifically and they are probably gonna with with some bullshit that each planet terraforming work by the titans is to raise some new godseed and reproduce.  So the true purpose of most life on the planet is to create a new titan which, in the end is our only hope....or something.

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Reply #61 on: June 24, 2013, 10:37:11 AM

And then they go crush Commander Shepard.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #62 on: June 24, 2013, 12:09:40 PM

And of course we will find out that the titans aren't exactly altruistic and that we need to not only build  a new Titan but use the curse if flesh on it to make the first "human" god, or some bullshit.

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Reply #63 on: June 24, 2013, 12:17:43 PM

I really want to know what they're going to add for new races now.  Pandas was already a stretch of the lorelol.  Short of some epic retcon that allows ogres, naga, murloc, or some other 'enemy' race, they may actually have to come up with something *gasp* new.

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Reply #64 on: June 24, 2013, 12:32:34 PM

I really want to know what they're going to add for new races now.  Pandas was already a stretch of the lorelol.  Short of some epic retcon that allows ogres, naga, murloc, or some other 'enemy' race, they may actually have to come up with something *gasp* new.

Ethereals.
Simond
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Reply #65 on: June 24, 2013, 12:36:08 PM

Bearing in mind that there's already at least one ogre tribe which is part of the Horde, I'm not quite sure why it would need an 'epic retcon' to add them.

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Reply #66 on: June 24, 2013, 03:24:47 PM

As cool as everyone thinks Naga would be, they will pretty much never be a playable race, since they are pretty much universally evil, and also because blizzard would never give us a playable race without legs.  Troll "shoes" are bad enough, imagine Naga boots?  And what would they do for the ever present racial dance?

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #67 on: June 24, 2013, 03:51:28 PM

As cool as everyone thinks Naga would be, they will pretty much never be a playable race, since they are pretty much universally evil, and also because blizzard would never give us a playable race without legs.  Troll "shoes" are bad enough, imagine Naga boots?  And what would they do for the ever present racial dance?

The electric ssssslide

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Reply #68 on: June 24, 2013, 05:03:28 PM

I really want to know what they're going to add for new races now.  Pandas was already a stretch of the lorelol.  Short of some epic retcon that allows ogres, naga, murloc, or some other 'enemy' race, they may actually have to come up with something *gasp* new.

Ethereals.
Probably the only race that would get me to resub. It would actually kinda work too, for the inevitable return to BC expansion.

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SurfD
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Reply #69 on: June 24, 2013, 05:10:37 PM

I dont see ethreals happening, mainly because of reasons similar to Naga legs.  Or in the case of Ethreals.  Complete lack of an actual face to customize.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
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