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Author Topic: Tom Clancy's The Division  (Read 30109 times)
Kageru
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Reply #35 on: June 15, 2013, 11:39:06 PM


Cluttered environments, surprise attacks on people engaged with PvE challenges and weapons with a ranged alpha strike is unlikely to be good PvP.

A good PvP game would have balanced sides, classes, initiative and terrain. In other words all the other team based PvP games. That said I don't mind if they have it, but if they cripple the game for it or make progression require mandatory life in "dark zones" then not so much.


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kildorn
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Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 08:25:21 AM

PVP is about creating unfair advantages and exploiting them. Hitting a flag cap point with more people/by surprise, etc. But this usually isn't fun for me when the unfair advantage is more than temporary. This is exactly why this title looked really fun right up until the "better get this new rifle back to base before you lose it" comment combined with "players attacking us!" bit. Open world PVP with some level of item loss? Nope.jpg. I'm too old for that to be fun to me, it just seems stressful.

Just doesn't seem like it's for me, which is a bit sad since the coop pve part looked at least moderately fun.
Sky
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Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 02:00:56 PM

Part of the problem I have with PvP is that I like to get immersed in the game as intended. With a co-op, you can generally set the mood and enjoy it more like the people in the demo were (sans walking).

But yeah, online pvp is about deconstructing the game and turning it into exploit everything to win.

Venkman
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Reply #38 on: June 18, 2013, 01:52:13 PM

I'm with Sky on this. If it's PvP, then it's an FPS and that's fine but only if it launches after I'm bored with Titanfall.

But if it's some type of persistent action RPG, then I hope for co-op mulitplayer against PvE, or the kind of multiplayer Skyrim we've wanted instead of the MMORPG we're gonna get.
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Reply #39 on: June 18, 2013, 04:16:25 PM

Uh, so that Joystiq article redacted their whole "It's coming to PC" part, as of right now it's confirmed for consoles only.

But that Captain's salami tray was tight, yo. You plump for the roast pork loin, dogg?

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Reply #40 on: June 18, 2013, 06:01:08 PM


Cluttered environments, surprise attacks on people engaged with PvE challenges and weapons with a ranged alpha strike is unlikely to be good PvP.

A good PvP game would have balanced sides, classes, initiative and terrain. In other words all the other team based PvP games. That said I don't mind if they have it, but if they cripple the game for it or make progression require mandatory life in "dark zones" then not so much.



That's only if you like fair fights in predictable circumstances. A fair number of us prefer unfair, imbalanced fights that can dynamically break out anywhere, anytime.
Kageru
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Reply #41 on: June 18, 2013, 08:57:30 PM


Sure, some people adore seeing how much they can stack in their favor before battle starts. Helps them avoid having to compete.

I still think they're a noisy minority though, and this game looks like it has a pretty chunky budget to win back.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
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Surlyboi
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Reply #42 on: June 18, 2013, 09:31:36 PM


Cluttered environments, surprise attacks on people engaged with PvE challenges and weapons with a ranged alpha strike is unlikely to be good PvP.

A good PvP game would have balanced sides, classes, initiative and terrain. In other words all the other team based PvP games. That said I don't mind if they have it, but if they cripple the game for it or make progression require mandatory life in "dark zones" then not so much.



That's only if you like fair fights in predictable circumstances. A fair numberfour of us prefer unfair, imbalanced fights that can dynamically break out anywhere, anytime.

Sorted.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
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Reply #43 on: June 18, 2013, 09:33:37 PM

Honestly no dev should give a fuck what players who don't want to play with other players most of the time think about pvp gameplay types or their multiplayer game in general. At least if I were making multiplayer games that's how I would look at it.

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Reply #44 on: June 19, 2013, 07:01:43 AM

Uh, so that Joystiq article redacted their whole "It's coming to PC" part, as of right now it's confirmed for consoles only.

Aaaaand fuck this game then.

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Sky
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Reply #45 on: June 19, 2013, 07:24:15 AM

Honestly no dev should give a fuck what players who don't want to play with other players most of the time think about pvp gameplay types or their multiplayer game in general. At least if I were making multiplayer games that's how I would look at it.
Conversely, maybe they should wonder why people avoid the pvp cesspit.

Surely there is room for a co-op friend-based lobby shooter where Scold can't jump up from behind a dumpster and scream SURPRISE COCKFAGS and wipe everyone with the uber gear he's hoarded.

Because they've made that game about three thousand times now.

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Reply #46 on: June 19, 2013, 08:58:05 AM

Also, don't mistake disdain for playing with shitheads who will use every option up to and including cheating to win, with not wanting to play a game with other people.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
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Reply #47 on: June 19, 2013, 09:51:06 AM

Surely there is room for a co-op friend-based lobby shooter where Scold can't jump up from behind a dumpster and scream SURPRISE COCKFAGS and wipe everyone with the uber gear he's hoarded.

The original Rainbow Six games had some great FPS co-op, if you want to try that. Of course, the team-vs-team games were fun too, but those are optional if you can't handle the heat. ;)

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Scold
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Reply #48 on: June 19, 2013, 06:51:05 PM

Honestly no dev should give a fuck what players who don't want to play with other players most of the time think about pvp gameplay types or their multiplayer game in general. At least if I were making multiplayer games that's how I would look at it.
Conversely, maybe they should wonder why people avoid the pvp cesspit.

Surely there is room for a co-op friend-based lobby shooter where Scold can't jump up from behind a dumpster and scream SURPRISE COCKFAGS and wipe everyone with the uber gear he's hoarded.

Because they've made that game about three thousand times now.

Ahem. I pride myself on being a good liberal feminist.

Surprise, cockpeople.
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Reply #49 on: June 19, 2013, 08:35:45 PM

I'll hold out hope it's coming to PC but they don't want to confirm yet so as not to dilute the all important holiday consoles sales that this E3 was really about.

Honestly no dev should give a fuck what players who don't want to play with other players most of the time think about pvp gameplay types or their multiplayer game in general. At least if I were making multiplayer games that's how I would look at it.

Kinda gotta if you're going to try and monetize those systems. Funding doesn't come on the backs of masochistic sheep who stick around en masse to accept their flogging from the relatively few cockpunchers who achieve alpha status.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:38:04 PM by Darniaq »
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Reply #50 on: June 19, 2013, 10:54:25 PM

You are all right. You guys are truly the pulse of the mass market.  Ohhhhh, I see.

The only pvp there will ever be is play2crush and Eve Online doesn't exist. The fact that people are even bothering to try to play a game like Wushu instead of the many bland but functioning pvp free games out there is another outlier.

In fact DayZ/WarZ don't exist and are shit with no appeal to anyone even though clearly this game is most directly aping those games, must be because they suck and have no merit. Or wait must be so they could make them but without the stupid cockpuncher catering. Or they are making DayZ/WarZ for the shooter-bros but everyone knows they hate pvp so better keep it out of the game.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Kageru
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Reply #51 on: June 19, 2013, 11:03:25 PM


... you think this game is based on a desire to capture the massive active player bases of games like Day-Z and Eve?

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Reply #52 on: June 19, 2013, 11:21:50 PM


... you think this game is based on a desire to capture the massive active player bases of games like Day-Z and Eve?



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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #53 on: June 20, 2013, 05:44:44 AM


... you think this game is based on a desire to capture the massive active player bases of games like Day-Z and Eve?


Not what he said.

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kildorn
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Reply #54 on: June 20, 2013, 01:33:23 PM

This forum is absolutely not the pulse of the mass market. But where I think you're veering from reality is that going by population numbers, the pulse of the mass market is far more casual than this forum, not more hardcore.

This game may be targeting a small hardcore pvp player base, but if that's the case then they should probably keep the itemization pretty flat, because open pvp + item loss + high gear scaling usually ends pretty fucking terribly.
Kageru
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Reply #55 on: June 20, 2013, 03:36:46 PM


I did some reading and it looks like it will have PvP zones, with firing an extraction flare possibly putting you "on the map" as someone trying to escape with goodies. There were also some suggestions it might not be very MMO based. I would not be surprised that if you are soloing you have a local instance so you can get the "survival" experience, that you peer-to-peer host 4 player group games which the content scales up to and that there are larger capacity servers for the PvP part. They were certainly very keen to talk about the "seamless transition" from one mode to another which could support that view. But the information is pretty hazy.

I think this is the model we'll see more of. Influenced by things like ME3 where the majority of the game is single player, or possibly co-op, but it has "extra features" that are online and group based. This allows the single player to feel like a tale of survival with a story and solves the problem of what happens on launch day when there's a hundred people camping the police station. Also reduces server costs and means they don't need the massive amounts of content required to keep an MMO audience happy.

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Venkman
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Reply #56 on: June 20, 2013, 05:10:37 PM

You are all right. You guys are truly the pulse of the mass market.  Ohhhhh, I see.
So exactly what part of this:

  • Big AAA published
  • Big branded
  • Huge development budgeted
  • iPad player supported
  • Designed for the multi-billion console

Do you think is targeting the nobody but people here have ever heard of Wushu player?

I get you think there's some indictment of "hard" games. But PvP in The Division is not a rant against Dark Souls. There's legitimate and long proven challenges with making PvP mainstream outside of the broshooter set or the continual surprise by just how many hardcore players want to continually lose until they start winning in the MOBAs.
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Reply #57 on: June 21, 2013, 07:38:55 AM

Both of those types revolve around balance teams, balance stats, and sessions. Its not that pvp isn't mainstream, just the diclwad version of it.

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schpain
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Reply #58 on: July 07, 2013, 06:36:34 PM

Uh, so that Joystiq article redacted their whole "It's coming to PC" part, as of right now it's confirmed for consoles only.

Aaaaand fuck this game then.

for those (myself included) who'd like to see a PC version.  I read somewhere that Ubisoft would look at PC release if this petition passed. 

https://www.change.org/petitions/ubisoft-release-tom-clancy-s-the-division-for-pc

also the discussion regarding sniper rifles and open-world pvp - what if sniper rifles don't exist in this world?!? :p

*Should be working*
ashrik
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Reply #59 on: July 11, 2013, 10:09:35 PM

Oh dear, is there anything that exists between a Day-Z/EVE gankfest and fair-fights arena/team shooter? Gosh, I wish there was an ocean of space between the two, instead of devs being forced to pick one or the other absolute.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 10:13:44 PM by ashrik »
Kageru
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Reply #60 on: July 12, 2013, 03:13:56 AM


Open world is a gankfest with some humorous attempts to have NPC "crime" systems which never, ever, work... Salem probably being the latest example. Or you have it regulated at which point your in arenas and battlegrounds. What are the systems that are halfway that have worked?

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
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Scold
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Reply #61 on: July 15, 2013, 05:25:52 AM


Open world is a gankfest with some humorous attempts to have NPC "crime" systems which never, ever, work... Salem probably being the latest example. Or you have it regulated at which point your in arenas and battlegrounds. What are the systems that are halfway that have worked?

Most open-world PvP servers develop organic player justice ('you attack me,  that will mean war between our clans') that works for all but those without any defenses or leverage, so trying to hard code an arrangement that will just be pumped for loopholes is stupid. Give new players a good 'flee' ability, something that works well but can only be used in an initial fight vs flight choice (not in the middle of a fight if it turns out badly for them), and you've got them covered too.
Kageru
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Reply #62 on: July 15, 2013, 06:09:41 AM


... no, they don't. Because the attackers have the initiative, can be anonymous, can log off if cornered and protecting noobs is dull.

It might work in Eve, in a game where politics and the possibility of permanent loss to your faction exists, but in most others? Only in a game designer's fantasy.

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Slayerik
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Reply #63 on: July 15, 2013, 07:15:18 AM

When playing DayZ. my fiancee' would ask me "How can you play this game? I get so nervous just watching!"

I responded, with a slight grin "Baby, I don't have a vagina."

If you motherfuckers don't like that style of game, don't go all "WAH fuckin' WAH! Nobody likes it or plays it!" Sure, there are a fuck load of idiots and cheating fucks out there. DayZ died, in my book, because any idiot with 10 minutes spare time could become a scripter.

The best PVP in games I have played are impromptu fights. Huge scraps at TM in Wow, chance encounters in Shadowbane at a rune spawn, running into another group of fucks in the middle of nowhere in DAYZ and fighting for your lives, Generator captures and holds in PS1, Ultima Online dungeon scraps, Neocron Outpost battles. Battlegrounds are fun to compete in, but lack the heart and intensity of a real fight.

Fuck a fair fight. My dad always taught me there is no such thing in life.

There are people out there that enjoy permadeath/item loss(full loot)/suspenseful PVP play. We know we are the minority. But the hundred thousands of EVE / DAYZ players show that there is a market.



ashrik your avatar is bad ass.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 07:19:50 AM by Slayerik »

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Nebu
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Reply #64 on: July 15, 2013, 08:04:54 AM

Fuck a fair fight. My dad always taught me there is no such thing in life.

You know that we're talking about a game, right?  You know why humans created games, right?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 08:07:49 AM by Nebu »

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Slayerik
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Reply #65 on: July 15, 2013, 08:14:17 AM

Yes, but life mixes in with games and games mix in with life. Some people want games as realistic as possible. I don't get in any fights in real life, so I simulate the adrenaline rush using open PVP games.

Anyway, just my way of saying that I'm bored of 8 on 8 shooter fights.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Nebu
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Reply #66 on: July 15, 2013, 08:18:37 AM

Yes, but life mixes in with games and games mix in with life. Some people want games as realistic as possible. I don't get in any fights in real life, so I simulate the adrenaline rush using open PVP games.

Anyway, just my way of saying that I'm bored of 8 on 8 shooter fights.

I gotcha.  I think I misunderstood the earlier post. 

My take: I think what pvp players want most is class balance rather than a 'fair fight'.  The best adrenaline rushes I get in pvp are when I 'beat the odds'.  Nothing like winning a fight where the odds are against you.  I want to fight in a world where all of the classes are balanced.  I'll take my chances with the circumstances of the fight being fair.

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-  Mark Twain
Scold
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Reply #67 on: July 15, 2013, 08:21:02 AM

When playing DayZ. my fiancee' would ask me "How can you play this game? I get so nervous just watching!"

I responded, with a slight grin "Baby, I don't have a vagina."

If you motherfuckers don't like that style of game, don't go all "WAH fuckin' WAH! Nobody likes it or plays it!" Sure, there are a fuck load of idiots and cheating fucks out there. DayZ died, in my book, because any idiot with 10 minutes spare time could become a scripter.

The best PVP in games I have played are impromptu fights. Huge scraps at TM in Wow, chance encounters in Shadowbane at a rune spawn, running into another group of fucks in the middle of nowhere in DAYZ and fighting for your lives, Generator captures and holds in PS1, Ultima Online dungeon scraps, Neocron Outpost battles. Battlegrounds are fun to compete in, but lack the heart and intensity of a real fight.

Fuck a fair fight. My dad always taught me there is no such thing in life.

There are people out there that enjoy permadeath/item loss(full loot)/suspenseful PVP play. We know we are the minority. But the hundred thousands of EVE / DAYZ players show that there is a market.



ashrik your avatar is bad ass.

what he said minus lazy sexism
Slayerik
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Reply #68 on: July 15, 2013, 09:45:49 AM

Yeah, my bad. I'm kind of a sexist dickhead sometimes. My apologies to the ladies I have had the pleasure of gaming with on here :) And the ones I haven't ! And to my fiancee'!

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Slayerik
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Reply #69 on: July 15, 2013, 09:46:56 AM

Yes, but life mixes in with games and games mix in with life. Some people want games as realistic as possible. I don't get in any fights in real life, so I simulate the adrenaline rush using open PVP games.

Anyway, just my way of saying that I'm bored of 8 on 8 shooter fights.

I gotcha.  I think I misunderstood the earlier post. 

My take: I think what pvp players want most is class balance rather than a 'fair fight'.  The best adrenaline rushes I get in pvp are when I 'beat the odds'.  Nothing like winning a fight where the odds are against you.  I want to fight in a world where all of the classes are balanced.  I'll take my chances with the circumstances of the fight being fair.

I was all over the place, I'm not sure exactly what I was rambling about.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
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