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Author Topic: Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)  (Read 308314 times)
jgsugden
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Reply #2310 on: April 15, 2020, 11:59:51 PM

Avengers 5 - End of Phase 5 - Kang the Conqueror.  Pretty much the entire Phase 4 and 5 will be in it.  That is my prediction.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #2311 on: April 16, 2020, 07:15:47 AM

The one thing about Kang that might make him appealing for a decade from now is that you can use him for a controlled reboot because time travel etc.

But still, I think it's right that they won't try for too tight a clockwork development plan going forward--I think the other thing they've realized is that if you want some talented directors to work with you you have to give them freedom to do some new things (Guardians of the Galaxy being a great example) and that it's more important to spread your films stylistically or in genre terms--spy thrillers, comedies, caper films, etc.  There's still a lot of genre space for them to explore--Shang-Chi is clearly going to let them stretch into martial arts/wire-fu etc. They haven't really done a rom-com, they haven't done a whodunit or detective film, they haven't done a lot of plausible genre templates.

They also haven't really done a classic villain team-up either. I'd almost bet on something like a redo of the storyline where the Masters of Evil take over Avengers Mansion after a careful plot to sideline, misdirect and divide the Avengers. They're a little short on surviving villains compelling enough to hold up that story, but maybe that's what we'll see them work on over the next set of films--more villains built to last longer than a single film.
Draegan
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Reply #2312 on: April 16, 2020, 07:48:32 AM

I never read comic books. No idea who half these characters are.
Khaldun
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Reply #2313 on: April 16, 2020, 07:57:19 AM

Yeah. The thing I have appreciated so much about these films is that they are generally just using comics as inspiration but that they're not trying to simply transfer characters or plots onto screen wholesale--if there's a good scene or hook or idea, they'll grab it and rework it, but they'll also do major revisions to make something actually good. Killmonger in the comics for example was a stupid one-note villain.
Draegan
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Reply #2314 on: April 16, 2020, 09:18:12 AM

Well, wasn't Iron Man a second rate comic at the time the first movie came out? Not to mention GotG.

The movies are really great. I think the only Marvel movie I haven't seen is Ant Man 2 for whatever reason. What I really find interesting is how they weave all these things together. I like the story building aspect of all of it. Pretty impressive.
HaemishM
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Reply #2315 on: April 16, 2020, 09:43:24 AM

Iron Man, Captain America and Thor were all relatively weak in comic sales when the Iron Man movie came out. X-Men was still the huge comic for Marvel and the Avengers book had only returned to better sales within the previous 3 years.

Khaldun
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Reply #2316 on: April 16, 2020, 10:07:52 AM

Yeah, Iron Man was very much a second-string character. Honestly so were Captain America and Thor; the Avengers had for two decades been second fiddle to The X-Men in terms of sales. That's what made that first film so exciting--they took the basic story beats of Iron Man's origin and of his personality and distilled it into a genuinely exciting narrative and then they did a supremely great bit of casting that brought every interesting element of Tony Stark's characterization into sharp view. Right up to the famous issue that recast Stark as an alcoholic, he was a completely cookie-cutter figure--"genius billionaire playboy philanthropist" as the great joke from The Avengers put it, with either no real depth or with occasional stock Marvel "hang-ups" ("I'm in love with my secretary! But I have a weak heart!" "I'm in love with a mafia leader who wears a mask! But I have a weak heart!"). It really wasn't until many years after the alcoholic turn that they began to really work with Stark as a kind of manic-depressive futurist with a messy childhood, and really RDJ was the one who kicked that all into a new depth.

They did a similar great edit with Captain America. Thor not so much, but they finally cracked the puzzle with him in Ragnarok and the last two Avengers flicks.

Villains are a bigger problem so far--Loki and Killmonger they did a great job with, really not so much anyone else, though sometimes even their weak work is better than the comics. (Whiplash in Iron Man comics is just a generic thug with an ugly costume; the guy in IM2 at least has a compelling reason to hate Stark.)
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #2317 on: April 16, 2020, 10:28:43 AM

They will be ok with any characters and arc as long as they keep the tone half-serious, with a lot of comedy thrown in. Classic comic book style where even big serious CGI fights full of jokey dialogue or narration. The moment they try and get serious, all political and/or grimdark is when this thing will start flopping in theatres. Shouldn't be too hard to come up with a new story arc, and I don't think the whole Thanos thing was too important to the series' success. The arc did help keep core Marvel fans happy and helped come up with movie plots but then main driver for mass commercial success is quality movie execution with lots of comedy bend. So mostly light fare that makes audiences happy.
Velorath
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Reply #2318 on: April 16, 2020, 10:33:01 AM

Iron Man was 2nd (or even 3rd) tier at the time but a lot of the Avengers stuff was doing well under Bendis. Even though his Avengers comics were largely garbage they were always getting a big push from Marvel as Bendis got to dictate a lot of the big crossovers at the time (when Iron Man came out in 2008, Secret Invasion was going on and all the tie-in books were getting a bump from it). Ed Brubaker's Captain America was selling pretty well at the time also and this was around the time Bucky/Winter Solider took over as Captain America post-Civil War. The two main X-men books and Wolverine were consistently good sellers, but any of the offshoot stuff not so much.

As far as GotG goes, the Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning stuff the movie was pulling from wasn't a massive seller but was very well received by fans and reviewers.

Of course when we're talking top tier vs. bottom tier Marvel comics sales at the time you're pretty much only looking at a range of 80,000-120,000 for the popular stuff vs. 20,000-35,000 for the "likely to be canceled soon" stuff. I don't think there was even an illusion that the extra 100k fans between the top sellers and the bottom sellers was going to do anything to translate into success of the movie.
eldaec
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Reply #2319 on: April 16, 2020, 11:57:16 AM

Villains are a bigger problem so far--Loki and Killmonger they did a great job with

Also Vulture. Everyone forgets Vulture.

Robert Redford was also good as Robert Redford in that film he was in. So was the computer in the bunker, if that counts.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
jgsugden
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Reply #2320 on: April 16, 2020, 12:37:40 PM

Feige said long ago that all of these characters were going to be handled like James Bond.  No, they're not all spies.  Instead, he was willing to recast the characters if they want to continue using them with a new actor in the part.  And they will not age at the same rate they should in reality - they'll be a nebulous age.  This was originally said before they caved to Downey on salary (loooong ago), but I believe it is true... we will see a return of Stark within a decade, as well as Steve Rogers getting young again with a different actor, etc...  When they recast, I think you'll likely see different takes on the character evolve - a less sarcastic Stark - a more aggressive Cap - a Grey Hulk - lots of possibilities.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #2321 on: April 16, 2020, 01:20:54 PM

Gives them a lot more $$$ and other contractual leverage on the stupid actors too hahaha
Abagadro
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Reply #2322 on: April 16, 2020, 07:49:58 PM

The crazy thing about the entire MCU success is that ALL of its characters were lower-tier/minor/unknown because Marvel had sold off the rights to its big properties (X-Men, Spidey, Fantastic Four) in the 70s and 80s in bankruptcy or to avoid bankruptcy.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Draegan
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Reply #2323 on: April 17, 2020, 06:56:32 AM

I am eager to see what Marvel can do with Xmen.
Khaldun
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Reply #2324 on: April 17, 2020, 09:34:02 PM

Honestly, I trust these guys with anything they want to try. MCU doesn't even have a Cars or a Cars2 as red on their ledger so far. They just have meh films, no actually bad ones. It will all come to an end someday, and there will be tears and regret. But they have done so vastly better for so much longer than I could have ever expected.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #2325 on: April 17, 2020, 09:37:28 PM

If every single future project of the MCU was a horrific abortion of a committee-designed cash grab, we would still have the single greatest edifice of cinema ever created in the Phases 1 through 3.

--Dave

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eldaec
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Reply #2326 on: April 18, 2020, 07:36:17 AM

Honestly, I trust these guys with anything they want to try. MCU doesn't even have a Cars or a Cars2 as red on their ledger so far. They just have meh films, no actually bad ones. It will all come to an end someday, and there will be tears and regret. But they have done so vastly better for so much longer than I could have ever expected.


Cars is better than Thor2.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
jgsugden
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Reply #2327 on: September 14, 2020, 03:17:00 PM

We may have an interesting Kang casting for Ant-man 3...

Our lead from Lovecraft Country is Kang?

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
HaemishM
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Reply #2328 on: September 14, 2020, 05:58:46 PM

I'm ok with that. Biggest trick to Kang is to not lean so hard into the various timeline iterations of the character.

Khaldun
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Reply #2329 on: September 14, 2020, 07:49:12 PM

If that means they're playing Kang for laughs and throwing him away, I'm in. If it means they're easing him in as the next bad, big out. He is a terrible fucking character and I cannot envision what a good version of him looks like. Period.
jgsugden
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Reply #2330 on: September 15, 2020, 10:22:35 AM

I think that having a big Time Travel villain allows them the freedom to retcon a lot of things into the MCU … allowing them to bring back old characters with new actors, etc...  We'll see.

I'm not hating on him, but Jonathan Majors may have been the least interesting actor on Lovecraft Country.  He is not doing a bad job, but he doesn't pop off the screen for me like some of the others. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
HaemishM
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the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


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Reply #2331 on: September 15, 2020, 10:01:29 PM

It's kind of hard to "pop" when you are acting next to Michael Kenneth Williams, Courtney B. Vance and the radiance of Jurnee Smollett Bell.

jgsugden
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Reply #2332 on: September 16, 2020, 07:48:02 AM

It's kind of hard to "pop" when you are acting next to Michael Kenneth Williams, Courtney B. Vance and the radiance of Jurnee Smollett Bell.
Absolutely fair.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
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