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Author Topic: Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)  (Read 130978 times)
Velorath
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Reply #2030 on: December 13, 2017, 01:48:06 AM

Personally I'd rather they just keep on with what they're doing giving us new stuff like with Black Panther and Captain Marvel. Also the only benefit I'd be able to see in them bringing back RDJ, Evans, and Hemsworth for another movie after Avengers 4 would be if they do end up buying Fox and could convince Jackman to come back as Wolverine for one more movie.

Also it would take decades for them to get around to doing a Tomb of Dracula movie if they did it your way.
luckton
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Reply #2031 on: December 13, 2017, 04:45:55 AM

Side-note on Disney/Fox deal: If all female fantasy roles under Disney are princesses, wouldn't that make all Alien Xenomorph Queens Disney princesses as well?  why so serious?

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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BobtheSomething
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Reply #2032 on: December 13, 2017, 09:29:33 AM

Side-note on Disney/Fox deal: If all female fantasy roles under Disney are princesses, wouldn't that make all Alien Xenomorph Queens Disney princesses as well?  why so serious?

Evil Queens are not princesses.  However, once Riply gets knocked up with a royal baby, things get murky.
jgsugden
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Reply #2033 on: December 13, 2017, 05:33:05 PM

... would be if they do end up buying Fox and could convince Jackman to come back as Wolverine for one more movie.
He says no, already.  Of course, back up a big enough money truck and....
Quote
Also it would take decades for them to get around to doing a Tomb of Dracula movie if they did it your way.
You'll have to settle for the new Howling Commandos....

I just don't want them to have to work around the chronology of Magneto in WWII, yet no knowledge of mutants...  And I don't want a universes collide storyline to solve it.  That just won't work in film.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 05:35:19 PM by jgsugden »

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eldaec
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Reply #2034 on: December 14, 2017, 05:10:26 AM

They don't need it either. If they want wolverine and magneto in the  avengers, just do it, don't explain it, don't retrofit it, nobody cares - it's the fucking wolverine nobody is going to give a toss how he got there.  Disney already concentrate too much on the wider continuity at the expense of the film we're actually watching.

Personally if I were Disney and I was buying Fox I'd keep mutants and the MCU seperate because then they can specifically choose to give them each a different style and only have to clog up each film with half as many crossover references. But that obviously won't happen.

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HaemishM
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Reply #2035 on: December 14, 2017, 08:46:36 AM


luckton
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Reply #2036 on: December 14, 2017, 08:51:55 AM

Soooooooo......

Is it too late to mulligan Infinity War to add mutants?  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
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Reply #2037 on: December 14, 2017, 09:05:23 AM

I really do think any addition of the X-Men on a large scale is going to take place AFTER Avengers 4 since even if they started work on a film today, it'd be minimum 2-3 years before anything could be released. So 2020.

luckton
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Reply #2038 on: December 14, 2017, 09:56:27 AM

Can we at least start using the word mutant again instead of "enhanced human"?

EDIT: Has to be at least a little bit of time to get Deadpool 'shopped in somewhere :P
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:30:22 AM by luckton »

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
jgsugden
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Reply #2039 on: December 14, 2017, 07:37:29 PM

I'm still thinking that we'll have an announcement by 2020 that will put all of the Marvel Properties in one cinematic universe.  It is just a matter of negotiation and planning.  The properties are more valuable together than alone.  Disney is willing to deal (see Indiana Jones), so it is just a matter of time.  I think the current announcements about X-men, Spider-man, etc... films are as much about negotiation and planning as they are about carrying forward their franchises. 
Huh.

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Khaldun
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Reply #2040 on: December 14, 2017, 10:17:20 PM

I think they knew this was possible a while back--I think it's why the desire to sideline Inhumans as a movie happened. So Avengers 4, I guarantee, is a comprehensive reboot of the whole franchise. They'll keep the late additions (Captain Marvel, Black Panther) if they like them, keep the stuff that creators want to keep making (Guardians) but otherwise, it will be a "there have always been X-Men and Fantastic Four in this universe, and here's some movies about that".

I'm down with it. At the very least it will mean an actually decent film about the actually best MCU property, the Fantastic Four.
Hutch
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Reply #2041 on: December 15, 2017, 09:42:48 AM

Assuming that Feige is still running things at Marvel Studios, the best thing that's going to come out of this deal is the FF reboot.

I say it's the best thing, because Fox's handling of the X-Men and related movies have not been universally awful. Having said that, I am also looking forward to how they'll reboot the X-Men.

I don't think they have to retro-fit anything. The Fantastic Four can have their origin take place in 2020 (or whenever) and go from there.

Mutants are a little trickier, but we don't need to see an origin story for the X-Men. We didn't see MCU Spider-Man's origin -- he already had powers and an outfit when he showed up in Civil War. For the MCU X-Men, they can just throw Cyclops and Storm and Wolverine together (and whomever else) and hit the ground running.

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Reply #2042 on: December 15, 2017, 10:41:44 AM

See, the problem is that the X-Men in almost any form require at least a bit of backstory, even if you strip them down. Wolverine kinda needs to have been around at least long enough to have had his adamantium put into him at some point in his life, Cyclops sort of needs to have been in an orphanage before being recruited by Professor X, Professor X needs to be older than the X-Men and have some sort of backstory, etc.  At least some of that has to have been going on simultaneous with the events of the existing MCU. Fantastic Four, yes, you can have them appear for the first time from this point forward--Reed can be some egghead who has been studying all the alien tech and Asgardian stuff and so on and can build a spaceship or a dimensional pod or whatever, leading to the origin in some form. But I think bringing the X-Men in requires 'nestling' them in the history of whatever shared universe you're building.

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Reply #2043 on: December 15, 2017, 11:16:03 AM

We don't need an origin for the xmen. We need a good story for the xmen. You start from a halfway decent assemble cast movie and you generate buzz from there.

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Khaldun
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Reply #2044 on: December 15, 2017, 01:08:12 PM

You don't need an origin per se, but you need some sense of character trajectory or history. Look at the Avengers, first movie: if you don't know Cap is from the 1940s and Thor is an alien/god and Black Widow is a spy who has killed and Hulk is a tormented Jekyll/Hyde and Iron Man is a narcissistic billionaire inventor and Hawkeye is...ok, you don't need to know anything about him, then nothing about their interaction works at all.

So a classic X-Men line-up, you need to know Wolverine is a loner who can lose control, Cyclops is an uptight control freak, Storm is either an innocent earth-mother or a punk-rock free spirit, Professor X is a jerk or a visionary mensch, and so on. That's what makes their interactions work--and at least some of those quick-sketch characterizations depend on some sense of the character's history. You don't have to show it explicitly, but I don't think you can have an MCU X-Men team that just doesn't have roots that extend back into the timeframe of the current movies. Look at Dr. Strange, Black Panther, etc.--they're essentially giving them backstories that root them in the shared history of the MCU world and that helps to nurture the nature of their interactions with other MCU characters.
Hutch
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Reply #2045 on: December 15, 2017, 01:31:54 PM

You don't need those things (about the X-Men) for the same reason that you didn't need to see Uncle Ben die in Spider-Man: Homecoming.

The Iron Man, Thor, and Cap movies were the first time those characters were given a serious big-screen treatment. For most moviegoers, those films were the introduction to the characters. This isn't true for Spider-Man or the X-Men. (One could argue that it's also not true for the FF, but I feel like they really deserve a full reboot anyway.)

I think the main point of distinction between the established MCU characters (Dr Strange, Black Panther, etc) and the X-Men is going to be: where were you guys when Thanos came to town? If the X-Men are going to be portrayed as an intact team of adult mutants, in the wake of Avengers 3 & 4, they're going to have to have some kind of exposition for that, certainly.

So maybe they take the opposite approach. Once they've cleared out their already-announced slate (Dr Strange sequel, Guardians 3, Spider Man sequel, along with my hoped-for FF reboot), then they take the Avengers approach to the X-Men. Wolverine movie, with Professor X showing up at the post-credits. Professor X and Magneto movie. Then a movie about the full team. (edit to add: I just realized that this approach is essentially what you're calling for  DRILLING AND MANLINESS )

Or, you know, any of a number of other variants. They've got plenty of time to figure this out.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 01:36:46 PM by Hutch »

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Khaldun
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Reply #2046 on: December 15, 2017, 03:27:27 PM

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm thinking. That was the problem with the Fox movies, to some extent: they threw all the X-Men up on the screen and expected familiarity to do the work that their script didn't. So the only characters in the first film that really work well are Wolverine (because he gets established fully), Rogue (because she's the McGuffin of the plot and her basic story is the iconic mutant story--teenager with scary powers on the run from bigots), and then Professor X and Magneto (because good actors, plus well-drawn conflict). Everyone else is "Lightning Woman, played by Halle Berry! Eye-beam guy, played by that guy who's always a loser! Telepath woman! Naked blue woman! Tongue guy!) Compare it to X-Men First Class, which much more durably establishes the major X-Men characters (doesn't do so hot with the bad guys, but ok).
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Reply #2047 on: December 15, 2017, 04:10:33 PM

The history of mutants is a key element in so many mutant storylines.  I don't think they want to lose access to so many of these stories by introducing mutants as something brand spanking new to the MCU in 2021.

The speculation I've seen on how to include Mutants into the MCU - none of which makes me truly happy:

1.) World's Collide - they have a storyline where the two histories are merged into one and the two worlds become one.  I do not think this works in the movieverse.  Too confusing for casual fans.

2.) Separate but Equal - They don't change either world (MCU or Fox Mutantverse) and let them exist in parallel, but allow them to crossover.  Dr. Strange goes to the Mutantverse, etc...  allow certain characters, like Scarlet Witch, to exist in both.  Again, too confusing.

3.) Reboot everything.  Some speculate they could do this right after Avengers IV, while others think they build up to a massive event in both universes that results in the reboot.  Separate but Equal building to a Merge.

4.) Reboot mutants into MCU with a reverse House of M style event: You make a storyline in which they reveal mutants have *always* been in the MCU, but a powerful mutant has been keeping them hidden / made it seem like they did not exist / etc...  for the last 10+ years.  That mutant dies and the truth is unleashed with brand new versions of all our favorite mutants coming into the MCU, history intact.  You'd have to negotiate the Captain America/Agent Carter/Agents of Shield history, but it could work - maybe.  This is the best non-reboot idea I've seen.  I still think it would be hard to pull off without being transparently retconning everything for convenience. 

5.) Reveal Mutants have always been in the MCU, but just have been hidden.  Ugh.  This limits a lot of storylines and begs a lot of questions as to why heroic mutants have never assisted with so many essential events. 

6.) Time Travel rewrites history by including Mutants.  Again, ugh.  Time Travel never works. 

7.) New Mutants - Ignore the mutant history and introduce them all now.  Have a 'White Event' like they had in the New Universe that creates the first mutants (perhaps in an event that creates the FF as well) and start adding mutants. Wolverine gets his healing factor as an adult and they put him through Weapon X in the first Wolverine movie.  Charles Xavier gains telepathy and starts to pull together mutants like Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman and Angel in the first X-men Movie.  If you want to have Apocalypse, make him an alien rather than a mutant.  I think this is too big a departure from the comics. 

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Reply #2048 on: December 15, 2017, 04:22:38 PM

We don't need 2-3 movies leading up to a proper "xmen" movie. Fucks sake its the Xmen. Young adults/teenagers tossed together in a high-lite setting about racism. The complicated back story comes after. WAAAAAAAAAY after. And you can literally come at it a dozen ways. Pray to the forest spirits that they don't make it wolverine and the xmen  and you've done the job. Hell after thanos wrecks the planet all his infinity stone jizz introduces the x-gene. Or maybe have it that the xmen did such a great job of hiding their existence that only the world shattering events of thanos wrecking shit have them reevaluate their stance on not being heroes. Or something. No

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eldaec
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Reply #2049 on: December 15, 2017, 06:37:51 PM

They'll probably just reboot xmen itself and introduce MCU versions of them a couple at a time. It is not like mutants would even be a big deal in the MCU. Why weren't they being heroic during prior crises? Maybe they were but nobody noticed them because of all the super soliders, guys in robot suits, spider people, and talking racoons that were getting in the way? Or maybe for the same reason nobody noticed the all the asgardian demi-gods, sentient trees, sorcerors supreme and Wakandan royalty that were apparently helping out prior to 2008.

Mutants : Hello humans, we are powerful beings who live among you, how will your society cope with our presence!
Humans : What? OK, give us a minute, we're just dealing with the inhumans, super powered secret nazi spy organisations, Eternals, Kree, immortal ninjas and wizards. Could you like, sit over there a minute - we'll get around to hating on you later this afternoon if that's ok?

Disney shouldn't do this obviously - the MCU, like the comic universe, has too many damn superheroes in it. Also there is absolutely zero story benefit of having thousands of equally powerful humans in the xmen world when trying to tell an xmen story about racism and being an outsider.

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SurfD
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Reply #2050 on: December 15, 2017, 08:52:20 PM

I honestly think that if they are going to reboot the FF, they should do something REALLY out there, and reboot it as a "Villain" movie.  As was mentioned, there are too many goddamned superheroes in the MCU, and most of the tropes and genres have been quite well covered.  So why not try something new, and reboot FF as told from the point of view of Dr Doom?  He is one of the most nuanced villains in the entire marvel rogues gallery, and could quite easily hold a movie all on his own provided a decent script / writer / director, which I have no doubt Feige could provide.  Hell, I could easily see it as a two parter, where the first movie would be the "Doom" movie, which possibly acts as a FF origin story in the background, and then the second movie being the "FF" movie, where they officially come out as Super Heroes to thwart whatever plan Doom was building to in the first one.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 08:55:18 PM by SurfD »

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Khaldun
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Reply #2051 on: December 15, 2017, 09:01:54 PM

I really think they're gonna use Avengers 4 for a classic total reboot.

If they don't, Doom definitely needs a modest rethink so that he's a comprehensive bad guy for the entire MCU, but maybe one that only Reed Richards can really come up with a way to beat.

jgsugden
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Reply #2052 on: December 16, 2017, 04:25:28 AM

I'm 1000% on board for a Dr. Doom movie. 

Marvel mutants are first and foremost an analogy for racism and oppression.  When suggesting ways they can be incorporated, consider how that fits in...

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Hutch
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Reply #2053 on: January 12, 2018, 10:52:45 AM

Black Widow movie in the works?

According to what I've read, they've just attached a writer. This doesn't mean they've greenlit or otherwise scheduled the project.

I don't care if we ever see a Black Widow movie. Her character's had plenty of screen time, albeit as part of ensemble casts. But, it is a little impressive that Marvel has raised the character's profile as much as they have.

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Threash
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Reply #2054 on: January 12, 2018, 11:25:03 AM

Between Atomic Blonde and the upcoming Jennifer Lawrence movie Red Sparrow I think the hot white chick in a bad wig = superspy genre is a little over saturated.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #2055 on: January 13, 2018, 08:53:03 AM

Between Atomic Blonde and the upcoming Jennifer Lawrence movie Red Sparrow I think the hot white chick in a bad wig = superspy genre is a little over saturated.

La femme nikitia, fifth element, resident evil, underworld...


It's a whole genre.

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Threash
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Reply #2056 on: January 14, 2018, 05:59:45 PM

Nikita i'll give you but the others have nothing to do with spies. There's Salt too I guess.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #2057 on: January 14, 2018, 07:43:12 PM

It's not spy so much as the "hot skinny white chick kicking ass beating on 200lb guys in a wig(sometimes)" genre,  even buffy fits in there.  The more you look for it the more prevalent it becomes so much that I'm starting to wonder if it's some really obscure fetish.

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Reply #2058 on: January 14, 2018, 08:49:50 PM

"Fighting Fuck Toy". Not so much a fetish as a way of making an action movie that centers on a hot girl doing acrobatics.

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Threash
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Reply #2059 on: January 15, 2018, 08:43:15 AM

But why the shitty wigs?

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Surlyboi
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Reply #2060 on: January 15, 2018, 04:06:36 PM

Because of the way it bounces in the shoot.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Sir T
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Reply #2061 on: January 15, 2018, 05:04:00 PM

Also, it artificially increases the size of their head a little, making them look more petite.

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eldaec
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Reply #2062 on: January 16, 2018, 03:34:19 AM

Between Atomic Blonde and the upcoming Jennifer Lawrence movie Red Sparrow I think the hot white chick in a bad wig = superspy genre is a little over saturated.

La femme nikitia, fifth element, resident evil, underworld...


It's a whole genre.

This is all well and good but the MCU had to get to the 20th film before they had a female lead.

So yeah, they do kind of need to make an effort on this. Especially   after Avengers 2 and civil war.


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Sir T
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Reply #2063 on: January 16, 2018, 10:26:58 AM

Depends on how you define the MCU. There was the Elektra film in 2005, which was dreadful, but it was a tits fu female lead Marvel Character.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #2064 on: January 16, 2018, 10:39:06 AM

Between Atomic Blonde and the upcoming Jennifer Lawrence movie Red Sparrow I think the hot white chick in a bad wig = superspy genre is a little over saturated.

La femme nikitia, fifth element, resident evil, underworld...


It's a whole genre.

This is all well and good but the MCU had to get to the 20th film before they had a female lead.

So yeah, they do kind of need to make an effort on this. Especially   after Avengers 2 and civil war.



If it takes 20 films to get another generic hot girl action movie then they shouldn't bother.  My point is the genre itself is kind of ridiculous, we don't need a scarjo version of underworld with black widow, captain marvel is the only hope.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
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