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Author Topic: It's not you, it's me.  (Read 186339 times)
Ingmar
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Reply #245 on: January 14, 2013, 01:09:50 PM

I'm not sure how 'proving his tweet correct' (me: 'dailies fucking suck' GC: 'some of you just hate dailies period') makes dailies less bad -- btw, I think my hate of daily quests has been well-documented during the last 5 or so years. awesome, for real Dailies are fucking terrible design, and it's not just WOW -- the daily quests in SWTOR, Rift and LOTRO were terrible as well. If you want to get me out in the world every day, take a page out of GW2's playbook. Also, fuck the rep grind in the legendary questline (this has been posted too, so I won't detail it here).


e: I will say though, a lot of this stuff IS being brought up over and over again. But then, if it's the thing (or handful of things) that made most people quit (despite them liking the rest of the game), doesn't that say something in itself?

I think you're underselling the SWTOR dailies. They're a convenient way to make money, without forcing you to do them to level a rep up or something, the better ones (usually the ones that take place inside instances) are more involved/interesting than WoW dailies, they're an alternate gear path (you can get stuff as good or better from other routes), and unlike WoW they actually improve when grouped. Arguably you 'have' to do them once a week for BH comms but that's pretty low pressure.

Also if by dailies in LOTRO you mean skirmishes, you COULD NOT be more wrong. They're the best system in the game and a continuing source of bafflement to me as why no other game has copied them.

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Paelos
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Reply #246 on: January 14, 2013, 01:11:32 PM

I think you missed the point harder than he did.

Paelos continues to think that dungeons should give daily rep, Blizzard continues to think that there needs to be other attractive things to do at 90 besides dungeons and raids, I continue to be sad that the "discussion" keeps repeating. What did I miss?

Dailies are not attractive things, nor are they content. This expansion will be defined by one thing and one thing only: DAILIES.
Cata will be defined by HARDER CONTENT, WHOOPS MAYBE NOT.
Wrath will be defined by WELFARE EPICS
TBC will be defined by CLASS BALANCE? LULZ

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Zetor
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Reply #247 on: January 14, 2013, 01:24:12 PM

I'm not sure how 'proving his tweet correct' (me: 'dailies fucking suck' GC: 'some of you just hate dailies period') makes dailies less bad -- btw, I think my hate of daily quests has been well-documented during the last 5 or so years. awesome, for real Dailies are fucking terrible design, and it's not just WOW -- the daily quests in SWTOR, Rift and LOTRO were terrible as well. If you want to get me out in the world every day, take a page out of GW2's playbook. Also, fuck the rep grind in the legendary questline (this has been posted too, so I won't detail it here).


e: I will say though, a lot of this stuff IS being brought up over and over again. But then, if it's the thing (or handful of things) that made most people quit (despite them liking the rest of the game), doesn't that say something in itself?
I think you're underselling the SWTOR dailies. They're a convenient way to make money, without forcing you to do them to level a rep up or something, the better ones (usually the ones that take place inside instances) are more involved/interesting than WoW dailies, they're an alternate gear path (you can get stuff as good or better from other routes), and unlike WoW they actually improve when grouped. Arguably you 'have' to do them once a week for BH comms but that's pretty low pressure.

Also if by dailies in LOTRO you mean skirmishes, you COULD NOT be more wrong. They're the best system in the game and a continuing source of bafflement to me as why no other game has copied them.
That wasn't really my experience with SWTOR dailies (talking about the solo ones here on Ilum/Corellia[?], which were regular kill/gather solo quests, thus awful). The heroic 4+ ones I did were better simply because you grouped for them, but they were still just the same 3-4 mob pull about 10 times in a row, then a hp sponge boss. Granted, the group had to pay more attention to CC than in a regular flashpoint, but if I want stuff like that, I'll just do a flashpoint and get more interesting / varied enemies and bosses.

As for LOTRO, I agree that skirmishes are great, and I don't consider them 'daily quests' (it's more like the "first dungeon a day" bonus in WOW). Even solo skirmishes were somewhat entertaining. What I meant are the 'regular' daily quests that LOTRO has in abundance that are basically just gather / kill x quests you can do once a day. Also, Lothlorien, aka The Zone That Made My Entire Guild Ragequit.

Ingmar
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Reply #248 on: January 14, 2013, 01:29:11 PM

Well, you only addressed one out of the 4 points I made about the SWTOR dailies, which I assume means you concede the other 3.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I guess LOTRO does have repeatable quests as well but they don't seem to be a major focus - but I leveled through Lothlorien after it was already deprecated content so I don't know what the endgame expectations were when it was max level content.

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Rokal
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Reply #249 on: January 14, 2013, 01:32:28 PM

Well, I for one missed what the attractive things to do at 90 are.

Attractive only meant "people have incentive to do it". The rewards have to be attractive in order for most players to bother. For WoW this means gear or vanity items. MoP has the same activities any previous expansion offered (dungeons, raids, pvp, whatever quest zones you had left) only now they have added scenarios and a substantial amount of dailies too.

I am repeating something I've said 4-5 times now, but I didn't hate all of the dailies in MoP. Tillers was pretty awesome, the new horde vs alliance dailies in 5.1 were good (they'd have been better if I wasn't so burnt out on dailies), and every other faction had some positive moments. My complaint was that the game asked you to do too many, and that the grind took too long. I hated the Golden Lotus faction because of the grind. Out of all the daily factions in MoP, it is the one I remember least fondly. If I take a step back, even it had its moments. The way the zone unfolds for Golden Lotus, the small stories bites you get every week(ish) about the Thunder King, and the way the zone wraps up once you hit exalted were all pretty cool. What wasn't cool was being asked to do 15 quests a day for 100 rep a piece.

It's proof that, at least for me, dailies aren't automatically awful. The part that was awful about dailies at MoP launch (the pace) can be changed and improved upon. If MoP had 4-5 factions that were as interesting and paced as well as Tillers, I probably wouldn't have had an issue with them.

Also, the dungeons and raids ain't up to much either.  The scenarios are also woeful.  The item grind ruins all 3.

I thought the dungeons and raids were great. Good variety, excellent art styles in each dungeon/raid, and interesting fights even with appropriate (low) difficulty in the LFD/LFR tools. Scenarios are a great source of gear/VP now and I think they're pretty fun. I would have liked to see storylines leading up to them so you had some context (like the old Group quests pre-Cata), and the rewards sucked at launch, but they're a nice addition to the game at this point.

You tell me what I'm missing, because I think I'm missing the fun.  I used to have fun.  I'm not having fun.

I don't know what would make the game fun for you. It doesn't sound like you liked any of the content in MoP, even content I thought was great. Maybe you should consider whether your complaints are about WoW or the genre as a whole.

I think you're underselling the SWTOR dailies. They're a convenient way to make money, without forcing you to do them to level a rep up or something, the better ones (usually the ones that take place inside instances) are more involved/interesting than WoW dailies, they're an alternate gear path (you can get stuff as good or better from other routes), and unlike WoW they actually improve when grouped.

Edit: MoP dailies are an alternate gear path. You can still do dungeons>LFR/raiding for better gear than what is offered from dailies. You can do scenarios for epic upgrades. You can buy or craft epic-level gear, just like you always could. It's an optional gear path that people have gotten hung up on. People aren't forced to do dailies, they just feel like they are.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:39:28 PM by Rokal »
Zetor
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Reply #250 on: January 14, 2013, 01:36:48 PM

Woo, derail!
Well, you only addressed one out of the 4 points I made about the SWTOR dailies, which I assume means you concede the other 3.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I guess LOTRO does have repeatable quests as well but they don't seem to be a major focus - but I leveled through Lothlorien after it was already deprecated content so I don't know what the endgame expectations were when it was max level content.
Well, to be honest I just didn't really care about the other 3 things to respond  awesome, for real

More involved/interesting than WOW dailies: dailies are dailies, repetition is repetition. WOW has dailies with minigames too that are pretty fun and involved the first 5 times I do them (nb: if I have to do a daily quest more than once, someone is getting stabbed). RIFT has a large pool of traditional daily quests with the available ones randomized every day (sorta like wow, only a bit better), and I still can't stand it. OTOH, I could do Instant Adventures all day long.
Alternate gear path: I'm perfectly fine gearing up through PVP, crafting, or dungeons, but I don't mind if it's possible to gear up through dailies (though it's beyond me why anyone'd find that fun).
Making money: I hate doing solo questing after I'm max level, so if I want money for something, I do a dungeon, pvp (if it has monetary rewards), craft, whatever. Again, others may find this cool, but for me the luster of that wore off when I had to farm felwood for raid consumables.
Improve when grouped: (just repeating my prev post for consistency) They do, but I'll just do a flashpoint or pvp. Etc etc.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:38:21 PM by Zetor »

Lantyssa
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Reply #251 on: January 14, 2013, 01:46:11 PM

I don't know what would make the game fun for you. It doesn't sound like you liked any of the content in MoP, even content I thought was great. Maybe you should consider whether your complaints are about WoW or the genre as a whole.
Is there a suitable distinction when 95% of the genre apes WoW?

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Reply #252 on: January 14, 2013, 02:01:41 PM

Edit: MoP dailies are an alternate gear path. You can still do dungeons>LFR/raiding for better gear than what is offered from dailies. You can do scenarios for epic upgrades. You can buy or craft epic-level gear, just like you always could. It's an optional gear path that people have gotten hung up on. People aren't forced to do dailies, they just feel like they are.

This is where you always get hung up. What the majority of the customers "feel" is always correct. Even if there is a logical alternative. That alternative becomes irrelevant if you make your playerbase "feel" bad about their time in game.

You can't approach a service based entertainment industry with a completely logical mindset. Offering A, B, & C is the logical view. However, if the users feel that A & B suck and aren't fun, they are going to ask why you only gave them C? Then, you'll say, but we gave you A&B. And they will say, we'd rather have more C because A&B are pointless busywork. Then they cry and bitch and moan, and eventually pull their money out until you coddle them with promises of more C.

At the end of the day the logical truth is you offered options. The entertainment reality is that you didn't because two options that are terribly unfun aren't really options at all.

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Rokal
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Reply #253 on: January 14, 2013, 02:10:53 PM

Is there a suitable distinction when 95% of the genre apes WoW?

It's an important distinction to make, especially it you're trying to evaluate why an expansion pack or game isn't hooking you. If you're tired of the genre and don't find raiding/dungeons/questing fun anymore, the quality of the content in any given MMO is irrelevant. MoP (or Rift more accurately) might be the best & most polished dungeon/raid/quest theme park MMO ever, but you aren't going to find any of that stuff fun if you're burnt out on the formula.

You can't approach a service based entertainment industry with a completely logical mindset. Offering A, B, & C is the logical view. However, if the users feel that A & B suck and aren't fun, they are going to ask why you only gave them C?

If your customers also gave you the feedback "I did C and now I'm out of things to do and bored", the solution is to add more things to do. If they tell you those things aren't fun, the answer is to try to make them fun, not to remove them entirely. You're saying that daily quest hubs are never going to be something players enjoy doing, but the universal praise for Tillers proves otherwise. Fix A & B, don't scrap them.
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Reply #254 on: January 14, 2013, 02:17:02 PM

Tillers aren't fun because they are dailies.

They are fun because they aped farmville, they aren't related to gear (except motes which you can get from mobs), and they are completely ignorable.

So yes, the key to dailies is to make them completely ignorable, and unrelated to the rest of the game other than fun cosmetic stuff.

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Ingmar
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Reply #255 on: January 14, 2013, 02:20:59 PM

I think you're wrong about why people find them fun/compelling. It isn't anything to do with them being ignorable or merely cosmetic, it's because they give you something persistent that is yours and you can see progress being made on your own special thing as you go. That's something WoW has never offered before, a feeling of ownership over a part of the world.

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Paelos
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Reply #256 on: January 14, 2013, 02:22:39 PM

I think you're wrong about why people find them fun/compelling. It isn't anything to do with them being ignorable or merely cosmetic, it's because they give you something persistent that is yours and you can see progress being made on your own special thing as you go. That's something WoW has never offered before, a feeling of ownership over a part of the world.

I figured that was a given when I mentioned they aped Farmville.

Also, people like the Sky Racing thing with the dragons. That falls into this category without offering you a piece of the world. It's a mount with a race.

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Rokal
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Reply #257 on: January 14, 2013, 02:37:08 PM

Tillers aren't fun because they are dailies.

They are fun because they aped farmville, they aren't related to gear (except motes which you can get from mobs), and they are completely ignorable.

They are the only daily faction which will continue to be useful for the life of the expansion (easy access to Golden Lotus for flasks). They are the only source of Spirits of Harmony besides grinding mobs once you get to 90. They are the least-ignorable daily faction in MoP

People like Tillers because:
1. the dailies are quick
2. the rep moves fast
3. there are frequent one-time story beats that show the progression the story (the rise of your farm and your relationships)
4. you get to feel like you have a slice of land to yourself, similar to housing
5. farming is a break from stale kill/collect quests and tab-target combat

Of those, #3 is the most important. Anything that makes you feel like you aren't just repeating the same quests is a huge boon to daily questing. They took this to heart with the 5.1 horde vs alliance reputation, which has 1-2 new story sequences every week playing out the primary storyline of the game at the moment. If all daily factions had been modeled after Tillers/5.1 we'd be having a different discussion right now.

Also, people like the Sky Racing thing with the dragons. That falls into this category without offering you a piece of the world. It's a mount with a race.

Good point, people seem okay with the sky dragon faction despite the fact that it is awful. It has the least variety of any of the MoP faction dailies, it has annoying crafting quests for tiny rep gains, and the egg hunt where everyone on your server circles 5 islands trying to click first when one spawns is anything but fun.

So why did people like Sky Dragons? Pacing. The reputation faction moved fast and the story breaks where you interacted with your dragon as it grew gave it a feeling of progress.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:41:05 PM by Rokal »
Fordel
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Reply #258 on: January 14, 2013, 02:40:37 PM

I think you're wrong about why people find them fun/compelling. It isn't anything to do with them being ignorable or merely cosmetic, it's because they give you something persistent that is yours and you can see progress being made on your own special thing as you go. That's something WoW has never offered before, a feeling of ownership over a part of the world.


Pfft, Iceblood Tower was clearly my personal property.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Paelos
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Reply #259 on: January 14, 2013, 03:47:32 PM

Rokal, it wasn't just pacing. It was the fact that those factions didn't cockblock useful gear. As such, they could set the rates at whatever, and it wasn't relevent to  their retention. That made them actually optional to the players, not fake optional like WELL YOU CAN RAID YOUR BALLS OFF INSTEAD LULZ!

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Rokal
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Reply #260 on: January 14, 2013, 04:09:35 PM

Rokal, it wasn't just pacing. It was the fact that those factions didn't cockblock useful gear. As such, they could set the rates at whatever, and it wasn't relevent to  their retention. That made them actually optional to the players, not fake optional like WELL YOU CAN RAID YOUR BALLS OFF INSTEAD LULZ!

This doesn't matter as much as whether the content feels like a grind. The 5.1 faction currently provides the best VP gear in the game. I haven't seen complaints about it because it moves fast and it has frequent story progress which makes it feel less repetitive. That's it.
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Reply #261 on: January 14, 2013, 04:10:09 PM

If you don't like dailies and you don't like raiding then why are you worried about rep gear? You can scare up a set of JP (no rep needed)/PvP/crafted gear which is more than adequate for heroics, plus scenario grab-bags actually have gear in them fairly frequently now too.

Get to L90 and you'll have an ilvl of 430-440 or so just from questing* which is pretty much enough for heroics anyway, go do the Arena scenario for your free 450 weapon and go queue. Hey look, rep grinds totally not required.

*Oh look, proof. My warrior alt dinged 90 about half an hour ago and has a current ilvl of 435. If I finish up Dread Wastes, I'll be pushing 440 easy.

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Reply #262 on: January 14, 2013, 08:48:42 PM

I would ignore dailies completely and keep it to myself how terrible the entire concept of daily quests is (the huge waste of development time they probably were, etc) as I mostly did in WOTLK, Cata, LOTRO, RIFT and SWTOR... but they pretty much made doing them almost mandatory for advancing the legendary questline*. Fuck that with a Sons of Hodir-sized spork.


* the alternative is mindlessly grinding mobs. Fuck that with an even bigger spork.

SurfD
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Reply #263 on: January 15, 2013, 03:14:25 AM

I would ignore dailies completely and keep it to myself how terrible the entire concept of daily quests is (the huge waste of development time they probably were, etc) as I mostly did in WOTLK, Cata, LOTRO, RIFT and SWTOR... but they pretty much made doing them almost mandatory for advancing the legendary questline*. Fuck that with a Sons of Hodir-sized spork.


* the alternative is mindlessly grinding mobs. Fuck that with an even bigger spork.
Umm, What?

Not a single daily currently in the game rewards rep with the Black Prince.   The ONLY way to earn rep with Wratharian is to kill level 90 Mantid, Mogu, or Opposite Faction NPCs in the Krasarang Battlefront.   Doing the correct dailys simply gives you an excuse to kill said NPC's, and offers a tangental reward, but in no way speeds the process up, or is even required for it.  It is PURELY a mob grind.  Infact, the fastest way to level Black Prince rep is to simply grind the mobs.

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Reply #264 on: January 15, 2013, 03:23:44 AM

For what it's worth, Tillers are slightly different.  Sure, the dailies contain everything bad about dailies, but not only does it have a POINT, but it gets broken up and has a final END RESULT.

And after that end result, you can just forget it unless you really, really want Valor and tokens.

I found the Insect guys interesting at first, but there's not enough breakup of the boredom and, more importantly, it's never really made clear WHY you're doing this except for getting rid of Valor item cockblocks.  And don't even get me started on that one.

The Dragon was OK, but it didn't move fast enough and didn't even have enough to keep my 6 year old daughter interested.  Think on that :  Here's a questline where you GROW AND FEED YOUR OWN WEE DRAGON PET and it can't keep a six year old interested because it's boring.  And she STILL farms the melons.

The Black Prince stuff is just retarded and takes me right back to AQ type stuff.  It's pure Ghostcrawler, in distilled form.

Rep should improve while you're doing something else fun.  You KNOW they're going to put in tabards so that you can do it while you do an instance.  You KNOW they will.  Why are we even arguing about this ?


Also :  I have to give them some credit for the items that make the reps faster on alts.  That's a slight help.

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Reply #265 on: January 15, 2013, 04:37:24 AM

I would ignore dailies completely and keep it to myself how terrible the entire concept of daily quests is (the huge waste of development time they probably were, etc) as I mostly did in WOTLK, Cata, LOTRO, RIFT and SWTOR... but they pretty much made doing them almost mandatory for advancing the legendary questline*. Fuck that with a Sons of Hodir-sized spork.


* the alternative is mindlessly grinding mobs. Fuck that with an even bigger spork.
Umm, What?

Not a single daily currently in the game rewards rep with the Black Prince.   The ONLY way to earn rep with Wratharian is to kill level 90 Mantid, Mogu, or Opposite Faction NPCs in the Krasarang Battlefront.   Doing the correct dailys simply gives you an excuse to kill said NPC's, and offers a tangental reward, but in no way speeds the process up, or is even required for it.  It is PURELY a mob grind.  Infact, the fastest way to level Black Prince rep is to simply grind the mobs.
That's what I meant (check out the footnote). I pointed this out a while ago, including how stupid a rep grind it is, akin to the timbermaw rep, and Rokal said I was 'doing it wrong' and that I was supposed to kill the mobs while I was doing the dailies anyway so it didn't feel like a mob grind.

Never mind that in about a week's worth of dailies I haven't even gotten halfway to honored.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Reply #266 on: January 15, 2013, 04:56:56 AM

I can't even be arsed to rant, that's how terrible the 'plan' for endgame content is.

WoW is reminding me of the last 5 seasons of Law & Order or CSI.  People in charge believe there's a formula that can be stuck to and provide compelling entertainment, but lost the creative spark and instinct for when to break those rules that made it in to entertainment instead of mass-produced garbage.

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Reply #267 on: January 15, 2013, 04:59:10 AM

Ahh, well, i suppose that depends a lot on how "quickly" you want to complete the current stage of the legendary questline.   On my druid (my main) I seem to be progressing it so that I just about finish up with the current step just as the next one rolls out.  (for example, after today's reset, my next LFD dungeon will give me my 6k Valor achieve, which will then let me move on to the Do a few batlegrounds portion, which i should be able to finish up this week, and then i should be done till the next step unlocks when the next patch launches).   Most of the steps in the legendary questline seem to have a section that effectively "gates" the questline pretty independantly of the rep requirement.  I mean, in the first step, if you manage to collect your 10 + 10 sigils before you hit honored, you must have some pretty crazy luck, and in the second step, if you manage to hit revered before you collect 6k valor (which only starts counting from when you pick up the quest), then you pretty much arent trying.

Of course, this assumes that you are doing at least a few daily quest hubs (whatever gets you killing mantid / mogu) out of the regular bunch for the first step, and doing the Horde / Alliance Battlefront daily quest hub for the second step.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 05:02:03 AM by SurfD »

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Reply #268 on: January 15, 2013, 06:14:43 AM

If you don't like dailies and you don't like raiding then why are you worried about rep gear?

Because in the past, people had options to extend their character slowly through just doing dungeons with friends. They would get gear and points, and use those points on vendors. Nobody had to do raid, nobody had to do dailies. Things were just fine.

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Reply #269 on: January 15, 2013, 07:03:46 AM

Just because you don't raid, doesn't mean you don't want to improve your character and doesn't mean you'll accept being told, "No you don't need to upgrade anymore."   This is the lesson that Blizzard has to keep relearning.


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Reply #270 on: January 15, 2013, 07:30:41 AM

Not to mention that if you ever reach the uppermost limit of how far you can advance your character by doing the things you enjoy in-game, then get told that to improve further you have to spend a significant amount of time doing things you don't enjoy, why would you even want to keep playing? Beyond interacting with friends, that is.
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Reply #271 on: January 15, 2013, 07:36:44 AM

Draztal, a community blue, weighs in:
Quote
If you want the gear purely for progression terms, LFR is readily available and you won't have to go through reputations, you can also get some 496 items from crafting (though I bet those won't be exactly cheap if you need to look for a crafter you don't know at all). Other than gear, what the reputation is giving you access to right now is just vanity items. On which case, why do you think it's unfair to invest some time leveling the reputation of those factions that offer you a vanity reward you want? (especially considering that, thanks to Grand Commendations, it doesn't take as long to raise reputations to Exalted as it did during 5.0).

Methinks he's missing the point. Also when asked if he likes dailies, he replied with the following:

Quote
I do. I enjoy them, I find them useful to do something outside my daily dungeon/raid routine. I've only stopped running them once I've hit exalted with all Pandaria factions to instead run scenarios, old raids and PVP.

He's obviously sick and needs our love and support to get through this difficult time in his life.

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Reply #272 on: January 15, 2013, 10:53:00 AM

I don't mind dailies that unlock vanity rewards; I did the Tillers to exalted in MoP and every single rep that rewarded a mount from Vanilla up to Cata because I'm a mount collector. The thing about unlocking vanity items is that there's no pressure; if you don't feel like doing dailies today it doesn't mean you're hurting your guild's raid progression by not having your Ice Mammoth in time. Aside from tying good gear (and valor points) to dailies though, what ruined MoP for me is that the worst, shittiest set of dailies were required to unlock two more sets of fucking dailies. Golden Lotus was probably my biggest reason for unsubbing, because that faction was pretty much the definition of how not to do dailies. If I could have just skipped them and missed out on 1-2 items it wouldn't have been a deal breaker but gating two more factions behind that fuckawful rep was the last straw.

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Reply #273 on: January 15, 2013, 11:00:03 AM

Yeah, that.

Dailies for vanity items? Great.  Dailies for money?  No problem (for me.)   Dailies for Valor to a cap I don't even mind - so long as there's other ways to get to that cap like heroics, dungeons and scenarios. 

Dailies for rep and locking my only gear upgrades behind both of them can fuck off.   Those are chores, not fun.

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Ironwood
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Reply #274 on: January 16, 2013, 01:42:43 AM

Yeah.  They already caved on one set of items behind dailies, that's what bothers me.

It's like saying 'Punching you in the face turns out to be a mistake, but we're not going to do anything about kicking you in the crotch'.

Fuck 'em.

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Simond
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Reply #275 on: January 16, 2013, 10:36:57 AM

Golden Lotus was a perfect storm of stupid: It was at the start of the expansion (so everyone was starting from scratch at the same time), it locked away two other factions, the minimum rep for gear (on all factions) was originally set too high, you couldn't start working on the rep until you finished levelling, and the design of the dailies was just flat out bad (faction increases only unlocked more hubs rather than anything more interesting which mean repping up just increased the grind).

It could have been fixable if they'd acted quickly (doubling the rep from quests, dropping the linked factions unlocks to honoured or even friendly, and adding more one-off quests would have been a decent start) but it's left such a bad taste now that about the best thing they could do with it now is puill all the non-cosmetic gear from it (and throw them on a less painful faction or even just on a generic JP vendor) and unlink Shado-pan & AC from it entirely.

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Reply #276 on: January 16, 2013, 10:46:39 AM

I agree with the last part, and that should have been their initial fix. They should have unlinked the reps when they saw how big of a shitstorm it was creating in that region, and they should have moved all VP gear to a vendor in the city, not blocked by faction. They will probably end up doing just that in their own mammothly slow way sometime in April, long after we've stopped giving a shit.

They needed to stop making expansion release mistakes with Mists in order to earn the goodwill back from the Cataclysm release mistakes. They failed, and lost any momentum they gained with the D3 thing, since expires shortly.

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Rokal
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Reply #277 on: January 16, 2013, 12:08:58 PM

It could have been fixable if they'd acted quickly (doubling the rep from quests, dropping the linked factions unlocks to honoured or even friendly, and adding more one-off quests would have been a decent start) but it's left such a bad taste now that about the best thing they could do with it now is puill all the non-cosmetic gear from it (and throw them on a less painful faction or even just on a generic JP vendor) and unlink Shado-pan & AC from it entirely.

I like most of these suggestions but I don't think unlinking the gated reputations or lowering the required rep level for the gate would have helped without huge changes to the factions. People would have had the option of stopping at honored (if it unlocked Shadopan and August Celestials) but they would have continued for the VP rewards or the exalted ring. If you thought feeling like you "had to do" ~25 dailies (Golden Lotus + Klaxxi) was bad, just imagine how bad it would be if you felt like you had 10 more dailies that "you had to do" on top of that for Shadopan and August Celestials at the same time.

The gating wasn't a bad idea. The reputation that served as the gate was the problem. Triple the reputation gains from Golden Lotus, retire the first hub when you hit honored (or was it revered?) so that you never have more than 10 quests to do for one faction and you aren't doing the same quests for quite as long, and avoid making the mistake again in the future.

Alternatively, if they did want to remove the gate, they could triple the rep gains from golden lotus and limit it to one 5-quest hub per day (that changes to different sets at higher rep levels), and people probably wouldn't feel as hostile about dailies. You're still only doing 15 quests a day between the three factions, but you get more variety and the grind wouldn't feel as slow.

Future daily factions need to move faster and have a lot more one-off story beats if Blizzard doesn't want the community to react negatively.
Lantyssa
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Reply #278 on: January 16, 2013, 12:41:59 PM

So say the next expansion comes out.  Why would I want to raise my faction rep with anything in MoP?

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Fabricated
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Reply #279 on: January 16, 2013, 12:49:01 PM

Maybe Ghostcrawler will get to bring his awesome vision to the next expansion and literally require a specific item level to enter it so you have to grind MoP factions. I mean, we wouldn't want everyone's "accomplishments" (his words) to be "invalidated" (also his words) would we?

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