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Author Topic: Elite: Dangerous  (Read 129844 times)
Sir T
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Reply #1680 on: April 30, 2017, 12:06:53 AM

so, the events and even the abandoned ships and stuff are only accessible in open play where a few assholes can spoil the fun for everyone else? How incredibly stupid, yet not at all surprising.

I was placing personal pets that something like that would occur. Hell it happened in Eve online all the time when people did events. or official events happened.

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
Khaldun
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Reply #1681 on: April 30, 2017, 06:17:01 AM

It's always interesting when designers don't seem to know how something that has gone wrong in numerous other games in the past can go wrong. I scratch my head every time I see that. *We* all know about these kinds of design bottlenecks, why don't they?
Tale
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sıɥʇ ǝʞıן sʞןɐʇ


Reply #1682 on: April 30, 2017, 08:30:53 AM

It's always interesting when designers don't seem to know how something that has gone wrong in numerous other games in the past can go wrong. I scratch my head every time I see that. *We* all know about these kinds of design bottlenecks, why don't they?

FWIW I don't think anything has gone wrong. I disagree with all but one of the posts that came after mine above. The devs and the novelist have handled this well, and the event was fine.

The "fail" I mentioned was intended to mean the players guarding Salome. It sounds like they let a fifth column into their ranks. And yes that probably makes for a good storyline, as Mandella said in the post I agree with. It may even have been intended.

so, the events and even the abandoned ships and stuff are only accessible in open play where a few assholes can spoil the fun for everyone else? How incredibly stupid, yet not at all surprising.

As I understand it, the abandoned ships and stuff are available in solo play. Only the event this weekend was in open play, as it was a PvP event.

Cheer up, thread. This is a great game.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 08:39:14 AM by Tale »

"The more we talk about less important things, the less we talk about more important things."
Jeff Kelly
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I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #1683 on: April 30, 2017, 10:18:24 AM

The big player groups threatened to shoot down and interdict every casual player who wanted to participate. The discords were invitation only. The forums featured sticky posts that were basically long winded "Keep Out: Casuals" signs. They also did and could enforce that policy unopposed.

They'd rather invite the most well known scumbag briefer guild than open the event up to all ED players. Also FDev and the event organizers didn't give one fuck about that.

Yeah a really healthy community.

The event and how it was handled by FDev was a shitshow run by the inmates of the asylum.
Samprimary
Contributor
Posts: 3616


Reply #1684 on: April 30, 2017, 05:24:49 PM

It's always interesting when designers don't seem to know how something that has gone wrong in numerous other games in the past can go wrong. I scratch my head every time I see that. *We* all know about these kinds of design bottlenecks, why don't they?

The way the devs structured the way the event would play out guaranteed the outcome without their awareness. It would be like structuring an event where you lock people in a car trunk on a hot June day and say "we are really excited to see how these people influence events to turn out" what a surprise they died
Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #1685 on: April 30, 2017, 05:32:40 PM

There are ways to make games that thousands or hundreds of thousands of players can play together in, compete or cooperate on even footing, not be subject to having their play spoiled by cheaters or griefers, and generally everyone have a good time, win or lose. And there are ways to make games that aren't like that. The former is hard, the latter is lazy (not easy, lazy). This was a perfect example of the latter. I get that there is a vocal set of people who very much like the cutthroat, dog-eat-dog, "hardcore" game environment (except when they end up on the loosing side of the equation to some set of griefers even more hardcore and better organized than they are). What I don't get is why developers keep dumping money down that toilet where they allow a very very small percentage of their customers drive off most of the rest.

Yes, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Sir T
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Posts: 10649


Reply #1686 on: April 30, 2017, 06:20:53 PM

Those small set of griefers are motivated to fill forums with bullshit to drive the game in the way they want and to shout down any contrary opinions so that the devs only get the feedback they want.. They see forum work as part of PVP. The Mechwarrior Online team won my grudging imagination when they responded to the "Clans are balanced, its just that clan players are more dedicated and better" by basically saying in one post "We looked at the data in our logs. The balance is not even close. We are making X and Y changes" with an implied "fuck you"

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
Tale
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Reply #1687 on: April 30, 2017, 10:14:22 PM

I liked Ars Technica's article about it.

"The more we talk about less important things, the less we talk about more important things."
Ironwood
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Reply #1688 on: May 02, 2017, 08:52:48 AM

There was another article I just read about these assholes (Specifically Harry Potter) and it's like a trip back in time.  They're actually complaining that Frontier allowing people private groups and solo play is an infringement of their right to gank players out of the game.

It's crazy how these people think, even crazier that we're still having this discussion every fucking time someone tries to do something cool that gets spoiled by ASSHOLES.

NO, MOTHERFUCKER, I HAVE NO INTEREST BEING THE SHEEP IN YOUR WOLF SIMULATOR.  FUCK OFF, YOU CUNT.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Sir T
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Reply #1689 on: May 02, 2017, 01:19:41 PM

Whats gets me is the distress in their tone when they complain about it. It's like they are physically hurt by the ability of players to ignore them. Someone should tell them that in nature most hunts fail as the prey have developed defenses. Wolves get a kill on average one day in 3. And the most dangerous animal in Africa are hippos.

Anyway, they are only Randian supermen because in this world they are not state sponsored Privateers and wont wind up being chased into deep space by the navies of the Empire and federation.. Because the game is designed not to call in the navy one their asses, and they are able to hide by logging out. They want the fun of fighting the helpless without the consequences.

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #1690 on: May 02, 2017, 02:16:18 PM

Never understood why you could just kill lesser players without penalty (fines do not come close to counting as a penalty). Killing an unwanted player should result in everything turning hostile towards you save those rouge outposts and bases/ports. Otherwise you should be hunted by NPCs in populated space (the bubble). Treat it like illicit cargo, illicit bounties should serve the same dishes but more widespread.

That said, thank god there is solo/private mode.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Ironwood
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Reply #1691 on: May 02, 2017, 02:46:14 PM

Yuuuuup.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tale
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Reply #1692 on: May 02, 2017, 05:27:39 PM

Fan podcast Lave Radio has done an episode interviewing key players involved in the event, which may help explain why they did things the way they did, and what happened from their perspective.

"The more we talk about less important things, the less we talk about more important things."
Khaldun
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Reply #1693 on: May 02, 2017, 07:17:23 PM

What I am thinking about as a design bottleneck is creating a single event that only people who are multiplayer and present can really appreciate; you need to iterate 'fragments' of the event into all the play formats or spaces or you're really just creating a hierarchy that says: here is the way the game should really be played; here is something for carebears and doofuses.
Samprimary
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Posts: 3616


Reply #1694 on: May 02, 2017, 07:38:11 PM

i wish that elite's failure to be able to manage the group simulation dynamics was an isolated issue not otherwise representative of frontier's failure with gameplay issues in general. instead, i'm looking at a whole package that more or less puts an effective cap on elite being that interesting or that worth playing.
Jeff Kelly
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I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #1695 on: May 03, 2017, 02:28:49 AM

The whining is not a new phenomenon. The "murder hobos" (actual self title) have bugged Frontier for years to punish combat logging and similar anti PK measures with account bans. They see it as unsportsmanlike behavior if people don't submit to being hunted and killed over and over again.

They have been successful as well, combat logging - even if you don't want to engage in PVP or even if you are clearly outmatched and at risk of losing millions of credits and weeks of playtime - is now something that will be punished if reported and can lead to an account termination.

The argument was always that you should simply play in private groups or solo if you didn't want to be perpetually ganked by sociopathic assholes because ganking Newbs was a legitimate playstyle and 'you should be able to role play a space pirate if you wanted to'. You know the same stupid arguments we keep hearing since UO was a thing.

Now they are petitioning Frontier to remove solo and privat group play altogether or at least severely gimp it (no access to community goals or certain in game events and stuff) because no one is playing in open anymore and they just have themselves to gank. The largest private group has 20,000 members which is probably more than there are active players in open.

So the bigger griefer  assholes - like SDC - are now resorting to infiltrating private groups with duplicate alias accounts to grief players until they get by the OPs of those groups. SDC even went as far as to grief and eventually shut down a charity stream one of the biggest private groups had organized. Frontier isn't doing anything against that either. When petitioned by the OPs of that group they said that it was basically not their problem and that it was the responsibility of the private group admins to police that.

Frontier simply doesn't care.
Jeff Kelly
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I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #1696 on: May 03, 2017, 07:08:02 AM

Even though I had reservations I nevertheless bought a Python. The issue with the offset seating position is negligible in the python because the cockpit is very small compared to the size of the ship and sits dead center. It's almost like you're sitting in the middle and much less noticeable and pronounced to me as for example with the Cobra MK III or MK IV. It's a pretty decent ship.

I started a 6,000 ly exploration tour basically on a whim. I got a VIP passenger mission that wanted me to go to a Point 6,000 ly out and I said: 'Why not?'

I probably should have waited until I had a ship with a better jump range than 20 ly but I'm already 3,500 ly towards my Destination.

Shockingly a lot of the systems along my path (250+ jumps so far) have already been discovered. I would have expected there to be more undiscovered Systems given how vast the ED galaxy is.
Ironwood
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Reply #1697 on: May 03, 2017, 07:13:54 AM

There actually are.  However, there's not that many missions.  You're probably plodding a very, very weary path.

If you just meander about a bit, you'll probably find tons of unmarked ones.  Do what I did - get your ASP and just point at something on the map that interests you and say 'There'.  You'll find something to claim.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
5150
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Reply #1698 on: May 03, 2017, 08:41:04 AM

I probably should have waited until I had a ship with a better jump range than 20 ly but I'm already 3,500 ly towards my Destination.


Depending on your fit you may not be missing much, I get ~26ly on ky Python with G5 increased FSD range with my 6A scoop, 5A Prismatic shield and 'mostly cargo racks' fit

If you want jump range (and a decent passenger cabin) you are looking at an Asp
Jeff Kelly
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I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #1699 on: May 03, 2017, 08:52:28 AM

When you have shields is an AFMU really needed?  Next explorer ship will probably be a Diamondback Explorer ( can get to 35 a 40 ly range) or my Asp but I can't really fit an AFMU there

DBX has gotten a lot better since the recent patch
Ironwood
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Reply #1700 on: May 03, 2017, 09:43:01 AM

Is an AFMU really ever needed ?  It's an edge device for me.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
satael
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Reply #1701 on: May 03, 2017, 10:11:54 AM

AMFU is nice if your trip takes you thru multiple pulsar/neutron star systems (especially when you are bored out of your mind from the tedium and fail to notice where you are jumping).  ACK!
cironian
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Reply #1702 on: May 03, 2017, 10:24:40 AM

Heat damage (from when you drop in the middle of triple sun systems and such) doesnt care about your fancy shields. Bring an AFMU.
Sir T
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Reply #1703 on: May 03, 2017, 11:37:00 AM

The damage when you slam into a star or if you overheat is not affected by shields, and those are your chief dangers in the big black, and you might be grally good at flying but its another thing when you are at your 200th jump that day and bored.

When I went to Jacques Station my Asp had no shields at all. I also was using downgraded thrusters and power grid to save weight. It basically was a tin can with a jump engine and fuel scoop. I had 2 AFMUs as one can repair the other.

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
Ironwood
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Reply #1704 on: May 03, 2017, 01:06:45 PM

You're all worthless and weak.

 awesome, for real

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tale
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Reply #1705 on: May 05, 2017, 04:13:04 AM

Anyone tried Mobius PvE (private group with 36,000 members) to play this as an MMO without the murder hobos?

"The more we talk about less important things, the less we talk about more important things."
Ironwood
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Reply #1706 on: May 05, 2017, 04:56:51 AM

Yes.  I posted about it upwards.  I'm a member and it's great.  TONS of fucking people, all really nice.

I can't recommend it enough.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
satael
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Reply #1707 on: May 05, 2017, 05:01:42 AM

Yes.  I posted about it upwards.  I'm a member and it's great.  TONS of fucking people, all really nice.

I can't recommend it enough.


I've never had any problems with other players while on Mobius PVE.
Jeff Kelly
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I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #1708 on: May 05, 2017, 12:36:11 PM

So as a follow up to our discussion I'd like to present a few recent threads on reddit to you that sort of sum up the state the game is currently in.

Beginner and getting ganked by Anacondas and Pythons. Why?

A recent nerwcomer describes his experiences starting off in the beginner area of the game. Quote: "I started playing yesterday, but for some reason it's the 3rd time I get ganked in safe space (most recently, LHS 3447) by players with massive ships. The latest example was some douchebag with an Anaconda who disabled my thrusters (I had no valuable cargo), would not answer to any of my messages, and after 5 minutes of me trying to get any answer out of him he just said "STOP" when I tried rebooting my ship. He then destroyed me when my thrusters were repaired"

The thread includes the same old recommendations like forgoing open and only play solo or in private groups, justifications why ganking newcomers is somehow a legitimate playstyle and an argument why the newcomer area is not a 'safe space'. It also has a general air of "Well it is the way it is and you just have to deal with it" resignation which makes me sad. The general advice is basically "Get the fuck out of the starting area and either join a private group or play solo".

Sandro Sammarco on "Report Crimes Off": A New Hope? and Sandro Sammarco, lead designer, talks about possible Crime & Punishment improvements, including punishing combat loggers

Crime and Punishment is somewhat of an obsession of the hardcore E:D crowd. It's not what you might think (finding a system that punishes assholes for being antisocial dicks) though. It's metagaming and theorycrafting mostly done by PVPers and guys that desperately want to be space pirates as a way to incorporate their idea of how the game should work into the core game mechanics. The second thread makes it absolutely clear what they are really pissed off about at the moment - combat logging. Read the OP, most of the questions and answers quoted deal with this issue and how it should be punished.

Take notice how engaged the lead designer is in the discussion about a possible "karma system" and how there's not a single item on his list that deals with anti social issues like ganking or how to make the experience more rewarding for normal players. He's engaging them in this discussion and laying out a system of bad karma and good karma depending on in game actions that at no point accounts for intent, ability, seniority or people deliberately gaming the system/being assholes and therefore would punish all people equally even for actions by other players. The Pro PVP crowd in the same way as the casual player who lunges for the "logout" button to protect his meager Cobra and potentially a weeks or months long investment from an asshole in a Cutter.

It actually quite fascinating how they lead him in the debate and steer it away from any debate about the core design problem namely how to deal with assholes or how to make the system more balanced or even how to add more content and flesh out existing systems. Even repeated mentions that this system might unfairly ban people or punish them for antisocial behaviour of others seems to faze him. He's more obsessed with the idea of the system being automated and controlled "in game" (hence functioning without GM or support intervention) than finding something that actually has a chance of working.

Itz would be kind of funny if we'd still be in the year 2000 and Trammel was still a thing but for 2017 it's sort of sad and depressing to see.
01101010
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Posts: 10122

You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #1709 on: May 05, 2017, 02:44:18 PM

So as a follow up to our discussion I'd like to present a few recent threads on reddit to you that sort of sum up the state the game is currently in.

Beginner and getting ganked by Anacondas and Pythons. Why?

A recent nerwcomer describes his experiences starting off in the beginner area of the game. Quote: "I started playing yesterday, but for some reason it's the 3rd time I get ganked in safe space (most recently, LHS 3447) by players with massive ships. The latest example was some douchebag with an Anaconda who disabled my thrusters (I had no valuable cargo), would not answer to any of my messages, and after 5 minutes of me trying to get any answer out of him he just said "STOP" when I tried rebooting my ship. He then destroyed me when my thrusters were repaired"

The thread includes the same old recommendations like forgoing open and only play solo or in private groups, justifications why ganking newcomers is somehow a legitimate playstyle and an argument why the newcomer area is not a 'safe space'. It also has a general air of "Well it is the way it is and you just have to deal with it" resignation which makes me sad. The general advice is basically "Get the fuck out of the starting area and either join a private group or play solo".

Sandro Sammarco on "Report Crimes Off": A New Hope? and Sandro Sammarco, lead designer, talks about possible Crime & Punishment improvements, including punishing combat loggers

Crime and Punishment is somewhat of an obsession of the hardcore E:D crowd. It's not what you might think (finding a system that punishes assholes for being antisocial dicks) though. It's metagaming and theorycrafting mostly done by PVPers and guys that desperately want to be space pirates as a way to incorporate their idea of how the game should work into the core game mechanics. The second thread makes it absolutely clear what they are really pissed off about at the moment - combat logging. Read the OP, most of the questions and answers quoted deal with this issue and how it should be punished.

Take notice how engaged the lead designer is in the discussion about a possible "karma system" and how there's not a single item on his list that deals with anti social issues like ganking or how to make the experience more rewarding for normal players. He's engaging them in this discussion and laying out a system of bad karma and good karma depending on in game actions that at no point accounts for intent, ability, seniority or people deliberately gaming the system/being assholes and therefore would punish all people equally even for actions by other players. The Pro PVP crowd in the same way as the casual player who lunges for the "logout" button to protect his meager Cobra and potentially a weeks or months long investment from an asshole in a Cutter.

It actually quite fascinating how they lead him in the debate and steer it away from any debate about the core design problem namely how to deal with assholes or how to make the system more balanced or even how to add more content and flesh out existing systems. Even repeated mentions that this system might unfairly ban people or punish them for antisocial behaviour of others seems to faze him. He's more obsessed with the idea of the system being automated and controlled "in game" (hence functioning without GM or support intervention) than finding something that actually has a chance of working.

Itz would be kind of funny if we'd still be in the year 2000 and Trammel was still a thing but for 2017 it's sort of sad and depressing to see.

It's a boon for the dev team though. They really don't have to do shit to the actual core game. Keep everything stable and add in some player-driven karma system - the game runs itself and they collect the moneys.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Falconeer
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Reply #1710 on: May 05, 2017, 06:45:24 PM

Jeff you are obsessed with who you think are sociopaths and all that. I think the system DOES need changes so combat logging becomes impossible and being a ganker brings on you severe -in game, automated- consequences. Personally I have NEVER played the role of a ganker or a PK, never. But I love games with open PvP and all and I know I am not alone. "Sociopaths" add something to my choice to play games with open PvP and things would be extremely boring *for me* without them. Then again,

a) it's great great great that FD added the Solo and Group function.
b) the system as it is now it is NOT OK. It needs to be reworked so the choice of attacking an innocent players brings actual negative consequences and cannot be gamed around.

Everything else seems to be your well known hate for a behaviour that as despising as it would be in actual life, *in a game* can be pretty cool to the point that yes it can be considered content. Again, the main issue is that at the moment the system is broken and does not punish nor discourages griefers in any way, and neither rewards players who oppose them.

Trippy
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Reply #1711 on: May 05, 2017, 06:52:06 PM

What's combat logging?
Sir T
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Posts: 10649


Reply #1712 on: May 05, 2017, 07:17:08 PM

Its logging out in the middle of a fight before the PKer orgasms all over your ass destroys your ship. Probably bullshit if it's in the middle of a duel, completely understandable if you're in a cobra getting shot at by an Anaconda.

If they introduce some kind of karma system it will be gamed to fuck no matter what. Oh no I got attacked by 5 of my alt accounts over and over to store up karma. Its a shining example of forum PVP by a small loud minority.

I hadn't heard of that PVE group. Might check it out

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
Pennilenko
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Reply #1713 on: May 05, 2017, 07:55:09 PM

What's combat logging?


Killing the game's process so you just go poof when a ganker or NPC is about to destroy your ship.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #1714 on: May 05, 2017, 08:14:20 PM

Better known as the ultimate cloaking device.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
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