So Season 2 ending

[Ashamanchill]

They were completely outpicked. Azubu's team comp had a synergy that TSM's completely lacked. I agree that TSM didn't do much of anything with their lead (because that's not what's done in the NA scene, and that's all they know), but I think the match would have ended the same even had they pushed aggressively, just taken longer and maybe been less one sided.

Ya Dyrus played really poorly those two games. I mean, i really don't like TSM, but it is still kinda weird for them to only play two games then home. I still think M5 can win it.

And as for Regi, I dunno man. he may not be 1900, but he is so outclassed compared to these other mids, like two or three tiers down. He just has no creativity with it.

[ezrast]

Regi is, in fact, legit 2056 elo after 1200 ranked games. Not that solo queue elo is particularly significant but that's pretty low for being on one of the two most highly-regarded teams on the continent.

He's no Nyjacky or Froggen, that's for sure.

[Goumindong]

They were completely outpicked. Azubu's team comp had a synergy that TSM's completely lacked. I agree that TSM didn't do much of anything with their lead (because that's not what's done in the NA scene, and that's all they know), but I think the match would have ended the same even had they pushed aggressively, just taken longer and maybe been less one sided.

Ya Dyrus played really poorly those two games. I mean, i really don't like TSM, but it is still kinda weird for them to only play two games then home. I still think M5 can win it.

And as for Regi, I dunno man. he may not be 1900, but he is so outclassed compared to these other mids, like two or three tiers down. He just has no creativity with it.

TSM had more raw comp synergy than Azubu in the second game. Azubu definitely had more in the first. But in the second, Azubu had a pretty standard tanky front line + ADC / APC comp. TSM had the same except that they also had dislocate, combo synergy [Karthus wall makes blitz pull easy], and AoE synergy.

You're fooling yourself if you think they would have lost if they pressed their advantage.

Regi is, in fact, legit 2056 elo after 1200 ranked games. Not that solo queue elo is particularly significant but that's pretty low for being on one of the two most highly-regarded teams on the continent.

He's no Nyjacky or Froggen, that's for sure.

I don't think Regi really tries to win soloqueue games that much. Its not like he loses his lane in tournaments. [he did in the first game vs AF, though that more to picks] In fact he consistently beats those who are listed as "top mids" by solo elo.

[Ashamanchill]

Chaox himself admitted they got out picked.

http://solomid.net/videoplayer.php?v=1917

[MediumHigh]

Ok watching those games live would have drove me crazy. Thank god for replays.

I am glad TSM was the best NA had to offer. Typical NA team would have crumbled going 0 - 4 in 13 minutes and the look on their faces when  AZF engaged them after baron? No one engages after baron. But that's culture shock for you. For all intent and purposes its not that TSM couldn't beat AZF after doing so well early, its just that it wouldn't have mattered if they tried because all teams like TSM and CLG know how to do is  turtle, stall, and starve the enemy team regardless of the lead. You get a lead you roam around for more farm, invade the buffs, wait around for enough levels for baron. AZF said "ok you do that, we set up team fights." So TSM ran around not knowing how fucked they were until the game winning baron which would have broken the back of every NA and 90% of EU teams. That moment when they all huddle together for a trip to the fountain to plan their victory lap and got wasted. Completely plastered to the wall like their 1260 try hards. TSM lost because NA is a uninspiring backwater.

[Goumindong]

Chaox himself admitted they got out picked.

http://solomid.net/videoplayer.php?v=1917

Talking bout Game 1. He thinks they countered jayce well(their only outpick in game 2), which i suppose is does support that NA is a terrible backwater[its not, you're dumb], because Dyrus countered himself top. Irelia is not a Jayce counter, building Triforce on Jayce is a Jayce counter.

He thinks they lost the laning phase. No they trounced the laning phase. Laning is over the minute the first tower falls. At which point they were up a tower, a baron, and 4 kills. Its just that, instead of ending the laning phase they kept playing as if they were still laning.

[HaemishM]

This is something I've noticed even at my low elo games. One of the top or bot towers go down, and the team in that lane just decides to magically fuck off to other areas and forgot that lane entirely. It's such a rare game where the team who takes down that first tower actually tries to push to the second tower, even after a trip back to shop. They try to get ganks mid lane or the other top lane, or mostly just fuck about. When I try to make them push the lane, I usually end up getting 2/3v1's on me and killed because my team is constantly fucking about somewhere else.

Is that what you mean my NA just not being aggressive at all? Because it's really fucking irritating. It's like the only time teams consider pushing a lane is when they've killed 3 or more of the opposition, and mid game tends to devolve into a retard circle jerk mid lane.

[Goumindong]

Is that what you mean my NA just not being aggressive at all? Because it's really fucking irritating. It's like the only time teams consider pushing a lane is when they've killed 3 or more of the opposition, and mid game tends to devolve into a retard circle jerk mid lane.

Maybe. I am not sure that this is an attribute of NA teams in general or just because i don't play in top ELO and so people are bad. In general, people do not understand how important objectives and map control are.

E.G. something a lot of people will miss. Because WE was able to secure the bottom side of the river in the dragon fight at 25 minutes and CLG did not immediately engage WE was able to zone them away from their mid base turret and take an inhib.

[MediumHigh]

NA is a backwater, TSM just won't admit that their part of that backwater.

TSM lost the game phase. Its like starcraft 2, your considered better than 90% of the population if you master mineral gathering and build order timing. If you can stop most sensible forms of early aggression and scout, congrats your better than 95% of the population. Most NA starcraft players crumble promptly after the first 5 minutes. The rest after 7. Congrats you don't beat yourself in the first 7 minutes of the game, welcome to the next 15   Which is basically the same wall TSM and their ilk face in League of Legends. Congrats you can farm for 15 minutes, now beat a team that can play the next 10  

The problem with continuing to push that lane collapsed lane is that its not safe. And the whole goal of TSM and CLG is to play as passive aggressively as possible for 15 minutes. You beat 95% of the LoL player base in your region playing that way so guess what everyone tries to do? The whole point is to wait around and let the enemy team beat itself because of your 1k gold advantage. If there was no dragon or baron those teams wouldn't leave their towers.

[Bzalthek]

Try retyping that without the irrational hostility.  I think you have a point, but it's buried under being an asshole.

[Goumindong]

I'm really not sure what you're saying now. The idea that Koreans are just "better at games" is retarded. Its not like TSM can't win a tournament against people from other regions [which they most definitely have done before]

5 months ago, everyone was saying "OMG Europe is so amazing at this game" and it was retarded, now they're saying "OMG Korea is so much better at this game"... and its just as retarded.

TSM isn't better than "95% of teams in NA" they're better than every team but maybe 4-7 teams in the World. I mean, CLG.NA went to Korea and played very successfully against Korean teams... then come back and get ruined by TSM.

[Malakili]

TSM lost the game phase. Its like starcraft 2, your considered better than 90% of the population if you master mineral gathering and build order timing. If you can stop most sensible forms of early aggression and scout, congrats your better than 95% of the population. Most NA starcraft players crumble promptly after the first 5 minutes. The rest after 7. Congrats you don't beat yourself in the first 7 minutes of the game, welcome to the next 15   Which is basically the same wall TSM and their ilk face in League of Legends. Congrats you can farm for 15 minutes, now beat a team that can play the next 10  

As someone in that top 5% (in Starcraft 2) this is damned true. I'm nowhere near pro by the way or trying to toot my own horn here, my point is simply to say that just by the pure numbers I am in that top 5% but I consider myself to be absolute shit at the game.  The reality is that you can do a lot of things right and just not have the mechanics and practice time to develop yourself into a truly good player.  The farm for 15 minutes analogy in LoL isn't one I had thought of before, but it is really good.  I think it is conventional knowledge on the NA LoL server that just "Farm until you win" basically - and the reality is that it does as you say, get you a long way just doing that.  But in the same way that NA SC2 generalities of mediocre mechanics and questionable decision making seem to seep into the pro population, it might apply in LoL as well.  Obviously TSM is about the best of the best we have to offer in NA LoL and can beat foreign teams, but the broad point here stands I think.

The question is... why is NA so bad games?  This is a question I've been wondering for a while.  This isn't just against Korean/Chinese teams either, even against EU the NA player bases (casual and pro) seems drastically inferior across almost all games and genres.

[MediumHigh]

NA teams like reliability. We invented the word "cheese" and "gimmicky" after all. If you lose while trying out a different build or composition its more acceptable in other regions than in NA. Try winning that way and we wonder if your hacking or the game needs to be re-balanced. We praise our ability to play standard (whatever we figure that is) until we are forced to change.

[Ashamanchill]

Oh yeah, you cats have to have a real League of Legends conversation when I'm at my fiance's for (Canadian) Thanksgiving!

@Gounindong: I dunno, I thought they got out picked both games (shrug). Maybe I'm wrong. It's true that they should have pushed though. NA isn't a backwater in that they don't know how to play the game, it's that they don't know how to strategize, or (in my opinion), think creatively.) The NA teams are always responding to things, never creating the situation, if that makes any sense.

[Bzalthek]

See that I can get behind.  I have no experience with other regional metas but anything out of the norm on NA and you're a troll, time to queue dodge.  Nothing is considered viable until some e-famous guy did it successfully in a tournament.  There probably is a cultural element to that, "I'm always right, If you don't do it my way you're a newb/troll, if you beat me with X nerf X!"  This isn't all encompassing, but it is prevalent.

[Malakili]

NA teams like reliability. We invented the word "cheese" and "gimmicky" after all. If you lose while trying out a different build or composition its more acceptable in other regions than in NA. Try winning that way and we wonder if your hacking or the game needs to be re-balanced. We praise our ability to play standard (whatever we figure that is) until we are forced to change.

This is definitely an issue.  I mean, I guess in a team game with strangers an accepted metagame is trickier because it isn't just about what works, it is about what all 5 people know.  One person trying something "different" in LoL can hose a team, even if it is hypothetically good in a scenario in which the team understands how to use that strategy. So to a certain extent I can understand at the casual even low level ranked type stuff expecting people to adhere to a standard metagame.  On the other hand, this doesn't explain why it seems to extend into the pro ranks.  EGIdra is sort of the prototypical version of this - standard play to a fault. (Although to be fair he was one of the exceedingly few NA players ever to go live and play Brood War in Korea successfully).   No doubt this has hurt him in tournament play before, even though over the long term he has probably been the best NA player.

I'm a bit out of my depth with the current LoL pro scene though, I haven't watched any in a long time and just tuned in this weekend because it was very big tourny.  So, I'm not sure how well the concept applies to the TSM players (if they talk about cheese, "Cheap" tactics, etc). 

[MediumHigh]

Taric is such a bad support, he does fuck all if you're not in your victory march.

[Rasix]

That was neat.  Late game clg.eu is fun to see. 

[Bzalthek]

Are the other teams playing simultaneously?  Cause otherwise the next two matches won't be over until Monday.

[MediumHigh]

That was neat.  Late game clg.eu is fun to see. 

I blame that on taric being worthless, Sona won that game.

[Goumindong]

Taric is such a bad support, he does fuck all if you're not in your victory march.

lol. Taric is really amazingly strong, his power just isn't as obvious as a sona ult.

Edit: Taric gives everyone on your team 30 armor and baron buff[Taric's ultimate is about the same AP/AD as Baron], everyone on the enemy team -15 armor [so a 45 armor total difference], and has a low cooldown stun. He is really strong, both in team fights and in lane. WE did not lose because of taric, they lost because of Jayce.

[MediumHigh]

You mean menial compared to sonas R

Janna pick may win or lose them the game, meta janna is onlg a few steps better than meta taric compared sona.

Taric is such a bad support, he does fuck all if you're not in your victory march.

lol. Taric is really amazingly strong, his power just isn't as obvious as a sona ult.

Edit: Taric gives everyone on your team 30 armor and baron buff[Taric's ultimate is about the same AP/AD as Baron], everyone on the enemy team -15 armor [so a 45 armor total difference], and has a low cooldown stun. He is really strong, both in team fights and in lane. WE did not lose because of taric, they lost because of Jayce.

Sona R and E prevented them from sticking in their engage. Yes the Jayce poke was nice but only because the threat of that R. WE couldn't engage that's why they lost. Taric can't wade in their deep enough for his -15 armor to count, he is a squishy shit that has to hug Ez and isn't even good at peeling people off the carries. Taric does fuck all. If they had a naut, an alistar, or blitz wasn't banned that would have been a gg.

[Goumindong]

You mean menial compared to sonas R

Janna pick may win or lose them the game, meta janna is onlg a few steps better than meta taric compared sona.

How can you keep being so wrong about everything? Janna is stupidly strong in team fights[which is why they took her] regardless of how she does in lane, but she is weak in lane to certain harass based lane combinations[though she is definitely the safest of supports and her team fight is incomparable]

Also note that taric is a hard counter to Sona in lane.

[MediumHigh]

You mean menial compared to sonas R

Janna pick may win or lose them the game, meta janna is onlg a few steps better than meta taric compared sona.

How can you keep being so wrong about everything? Janna is stupidly strong in team fights[which is why they took her] regardless of how she does in lane, but she is weak in lane to certain harass based lane combinations[though she is definitely the safest of supports and her team fight is incomparable]

Also note that taric is a hard counter to Sona in lane.

We shall see. Laning phase is ending very soon.

[Goumindong]

I don't think that the early game loss that CLG keeps up on is a test of whether or not Janna has a strong team fight.

CLG knows whats up. Win one turret? Go win the next two

[MediumHigh]

No seeing janna herp derp around wondering why her CC is being ignored is hilarious. Coming from a janna player, this is sad to watch.

[Goumindong]

Are we watching the same game?

CLG farming wards this game: Each one is 75 gold difference that the scoreboard doesn't show

[Malakili]

This game is why I play and watch DOTA 2 instead of LoL these days 

[Bzalthek]

And I lose the stream when finally something happens.

[Malakili]

And I lose the stream when finally something happens.

Died for me too.  In fact, changing streams they all seem down....  


Edit: This happened earlier and it was the venue that went down as a whole.   Does anyone know tournament policy?  Is it an automatic regame or can they call it for CLG?

[Goumindong]

And I lose the stream when finally something happens.

Best. Online. Technical.

If they have to replay this game there's going to be a riot

[Bzalthek]

I see what you did there.  It's funny they haven't managed to finish the last quarterfinal match in 5 fucking hours.

[Ashamanchill]

I would post a link here but I'm on my phone and I suck at the things.

Just you tube Meanwhile at Riot

[Bzalthek]

Whic video are you referencing?  Yip's, southpark, or wow cauldron?

And the stream died again, right after announcing a rematch.  It's like a tragedy of clowns.  Or a comedy of something tragic.  Shut up!

[Goumindong]

They are supposedly using [when they were up] 5% of the bandwidth in NA