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Ingmar
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Reply #105 on: August 13, 2012, 02:36:20 PM

Yes, I understand that's what they're going for, but it doesn't work. The guy who runs the bait shop is so insightful that when he sees me walk in he knows he can get me to do what needs doing by ignoring me and lecturing his niece about chess. It doesn't work for me at all. They're trying to create a bunch of Twin Peaks type characters but they forgot to put in any of the normal ones that offset them. And my character is definitely no Agent Cooper. At times I wonder how they know he's not just another zombie.

Those two dudes at the trailer park who react to the zombie apocalypse by getting wasted? Those are the first two where I thought "now that makes sense."

I should stop talking about this game, its making me think I had less fun than I did.  tongue
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 02:41:01 PM by Ingmar »

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Rasix
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Reply #106 on: August 13, 2012, 02:40:43 PM

This is getting rather stupid.

-Rasix
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Reply #107 on: August 13, 2012, 02:42:56 PM

My TSW beta was enjoying the start and then getting to Kingsmouth and having to compete with a dozen other players to get my 5 zombie kills which pretty much killed my interest in the game (since I had other stuff to play at the time)
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Reply #108 on: August 13, 2012, 02:47:48 PM

Yes, I understand that's what they're going for, but it doesn't work. The guy who runs the bait shop is so insightful that when he sees me walk in he knows he can get me to do what needs doing by ignoring me and lecturing his niece about chess. It doesn't work for me at all. They're trying to create a bunch of Twin Peaks type characters but they forgot to put in any of the normal ones that offset them. And my character is definitely no Agent Cooper. At times I wonder how they know he's not just another zombie.

Those two dudes at the trailer park who react to the zombie apocalypse by getting wasted? Those are the first two where I thought "now that makes sense."


I don't see this.  Your first enter Kingsmouth and are led to the fortified Sheriff's office with active defence, and the other people are holed up in a magically protected church or making a last stand at their house with a zombie bonfire and a bucket of shotgun shells.  Even the airport is rigged with traps and the scrapyard has defenses for waves of creatures.  There is a whole load of what I would consider 'rational' reactions to the invasion before you get to some of the more esoteric characters.
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Reply #109 on: August 13, 2012, 02:52:49 PM

Surly, anyone who plays ARMA can't play the "if I can figure this out anyone can!" card.  tongue

I die a lot in that game.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
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Reply #110 on: August 13, 2012, 02:53:13 PM

Please stop arguing, you are making calapine cry!

This is my parents all over again.  Heartbreak Heartbreak

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Reply #111 on: August 13, 2012, 04:02:31 PM

Doing the nightmare dungeons in TSW last night, I was changing my build on the fly before most of the fights, swopping both active and passive abilities. If it didn't work, I'd make a change or two before we pulled again. You can't use the same cookie cutter build all the time and need to think about the enemy you are facing, what they do and the skills you might need to counter them.

You may not need to do this while doing your basic levelling but that's not the equivalent of raiding.

Edit: I should also say that trying to tank the high end dungeons involves a lot more than rotating any set of abilities. There's a hell of a lot of running around, moving the mob around, timing certain abilities to counteract the mob's abilities and trying to avoid a lot of environmental effects. It's certainly interesting.

Way to say what I was trying to say, but better. Jerk.

Please stop arguing, you are making calapine cry!

This is my parents all over again.  Heartbreak Heartbreak

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Reply #112 on: August 13, 2012, 04:10:00 PM

I don't see this.  Your first enter Kingsmouth and are led to the fortified Sheriff's office with active defence, and the other people are holed up in a magically protected church or making a last stand at their house with a zombie bonfire and a bucket of shotgun shells.  Even the airport is rigged with traps and the scrapyard has defenses for waves of creatures.  There is a whole load of what I would consider 'rational' reactions to the invasion before you get to some of the more esoteric characters.

Yes, except the actual people are like "whelp, zombies." That's the wtf part. No one before those two drunks, when they are actually speaking, seem the least bit concerned. Just sort of ... I don't even know. Bemused? The visual cues do not match the characters at all. It doesn't work for me either. I've given it a lot of leeway on this point, but c'mon.

And I don't feel like my character works on her own initiative either. She is blown from quest to quest, doing shit because She Must or else log out, without even giving me the window dressing of participating in a conversation (or having the original quest giver go "hey, thanks, that's exactly what we needed to be done."). Policeman wrings his hands about kittens (and I did like his monologue, mind you, just NOT AS QUEST TEXT). Native American dude rambles about chess. Writer dude berates me about I don't even remember because by that point my patience for the cutscenes was running out. Then I get a quest that may or may not have something to do with what they just babbled about at me (or near me). Not because my character goes "ohhhhh." Maybe my character's reaction to the chess thing was "uh, whatever dude," and she moves on because if they have time for clumsy chess metaphors, they obviously have the whole Horrible Zombies From the Sea issue under control. But of course she doesn't, she goes off to kill ten zombierats because She Must (I didn't realize adding a clicky bit to a Kill Ten Rats quest suddenly made it an awesome quest, though, good to know).

This is probably the last I'll hammer on this point, because I am not going to keep playing it (and it's a major factor in that decision), and it doesn't really need to be repeated.  Heart

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Reply #113 on: August 13, 2012, 04:28:41 PM

Just an observation, but it just seems like it didn't work for you two from the start. It's been like reverse-Rokal anytime you were in chat.  A general negative vibe that permeated every attempt to play.  You seemed to really want to dislike it.

And you did! Fancy how that worked out.

Refuting any of what you've said, as has been shown, is pretty pointless.  So, I won't.  You're somewhat objectively wrong on some of the points, but again, pointless.  

-Rasix
Ingmar
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Reply #114 on: August 13, 2012, 04:31:41 PM

Sorry if that was the case, I was trying to keep the QQing to the forum. Failed I guess. (I can definitely remember failing on the Buggy Day of Bugginess, lost my patience there.)

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Reply #115 on: August 13, 2012, 04:38:00 PM

Just an observation, but it just seems like it didn't work for you two from the start. It's been like reverse-Rokal anytime you were in chat.  A general negative vibe that permeated every attempt to play.  You seemed to really want to dislike it.

And you did! Fancy how that worked out.

Refuting any of what you've said, as has been shown, is pretty pointless.  So, I won't.  You're somewhat objectively wrong on some of the points, but again, pointless.  

I barely spoke in chat, but sorry if that was the impression given, as I was actually the opposite. I wanted to like it, but I didn't. I made myself log in for longer than I otherwise would've because I wanted to like it and thought maybe I wasn't giving it enough of a chance. But. Whelp. I even tried to make sure if I posted something in "things I don't like," I went and posted something in "things I do like."

Also people need to stop using the word "objectively" It's clearly lost all meaning.  Heart

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Ingmar
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Reply #116 on: August 13, 2012, 04:39:06 PM

It was probably me, Rasix and I were often alone together in guild chat during the Chatless Time.  tongue

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Reply #117 on: August 13, 2012, 04:39:43 PM

I honestly cannot comprehend anyone finding TORs questing and writing superior to TSW, but I guess I'm obviously a minority there.

Regardless, as Rasix has said you guys really have been coming across as having a downer on this game from the word go. Please don't be so mean to GW2 as well!
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Reply #118 on: August 13, 2012, 04:41:40 PM

Actually I'm pretty sure you're not a minority at least among f13 posters. I promise I won't say bad things about GW2 until I play it at least.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

EDIT: And honestly it is kind of how forum conversations just automatically seem to go. Everyone gets pushed into seeming like they like or hate something more than they actually do, because you end up trying to defend your opinion about the one thing with people disagreeing with you, etc. And I know I do the same thing to people when I'm on the other side. Like the way this started - I was agreeing with Haemish that the reviewer must have stopped at Kingsmouth, because he missed the awesome stuff later on the island, which of course turned into me having to defend my opinion about the bad parts instead of talking about what was good about the good parts, etc. So let it be known: the quests, characters, and monologuing at Innsmouth Academy are great. The end, nothing bad to say!

There really *are* a lot of good things about the game and I'd have no trouble recommending it to someone for whom those things are the most important. And I did want to like the game; I went in expecting some Funcom crappiness, yes, but it actually wasn't the things I thought I wouldn't like, that I ended up not liking. It was more an avalanche of little things that added together.

I've probably just played too many MMOs at this point to appreciate one for what it is without comparing each system to how 10 other games have done it better or worse. Am I turning into Nebu?  Heart
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 05:07:12 PM by Ingmar »

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Reply #119 on: August 13, 2012, 04:43:44 PM

Please don't be so mean to GW2 as well!

Not planning on playing that one any time soon, so don't worry.  why so serious?

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Reply #120 on: August 13, 2012, 05:27:33 PM

I'm still surprised each time I log in with how much I like of the game. May or not stick with it. Depends how crazy life gets, which is unpredictable atm.

Haven't followed GW2 much. Don't know if it's omgslicedbread or merely better-than-GW1 (which did nothing for me). But that's for a different thread smiley
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Reply #121 on: August 13, 2012, 05:27:42 PM

Actually I'm pretty sure you're not a minority at least among f13 posters.

SWTOR dialogue for me is just different.  Not necessarily better or worse, but you do tend to get into some "ohh shit, that's not how I imagine that'd play out" or general derpiness in the delivery or tone.  There's just a lot more of it, so it's easier to spot some parts that don't measure up. If it's bad with TSW, it's just kind of consistently bad (like John Wolf).  I suppose Corso falls under that category as well. 

Quote
I've probably just played too many MMOs at this point to appreciate one for what it is without comparing each system to how 10 other games have done it better or worse. Am I turning into Nebu?  Heart

You didn't max out 3 characters, all while hating it, so I think you're in the clear.  Although if they don't let you cancel, you just might.

And now for something completely different:
Quote
Also people need to stop using the word "objectively" It's clearly lost all meaning.

If my knowledge of how a system works demonstrates you didn't comprehend something at all, is that objective or subjective?   why so serious?  

-Rasix
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Reply #122 on: August 13, 2012, 05:33:02 PM

Given my "monologue" rant was entirely about something subjective, I honestly don't know.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Reply #123 on: August 13, 2012, 05:41:11 PM

I honestly cannot comprehend anyone finding TORs questing and writing superior to TSW, but I guess I'm obviously a minority there.

I think the questing and writing is better in TOR, but that doesn't mean I think it's bad in TSW.  I actually went into the free weekend completely expecting to hate the game, and when I ran into that one stupid bug right away I figured: Ho ho ho, I was right!  But once I got over that part I actually found the game to be surprisingly engaging.  So I actually went from expecting to hate it to wavering on actually buying it, though if I do buy it at some point I doubt it would be for more than a month since I don't think it really has staying power.  But even then who's to say, since I was already wrong about it once.

All that said, the two things that really hold me back the most are the mute protagonist/overall lack of agency and the infuriating chat channel bugs.  Only a developer like Funcom can be so brilliant on the one hand (play with any of your friends regardless of server!) and so incompetent on the other (oh, did you want that channel?  Not for you!) at the same time.

Over and out.
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Reply #124 on: August 13, 2012, 07:13:23 PM

Quick question to those that felt the story, quests and cut scenes were lacking: would you have felt the same way if you never played TOR?  Would the whole "mute protagonist" have bothered you as much?

I'll pre order you SWTOR if you let me put my lightsaber in your sarlaac cave
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Reply #125 on: August 13, 2012, 07:14:55 PM

I honestly cannot comprehend anyone finding TORs questing and writing superior to TSW, but I guess I'm obviously a minority there.

Regardless, as Rasix has said you guys really have been coming across as having a downer on this game from the word go. Please don't be so mean to GW2 as well!

I can imagine someone preferring SWTOR (especially given the dialogue vs. monologue/silent PC thing), but I personally greatly prefer TSW.
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Reply #126 on: August 13, 2012, 07:17:29 PM

Quick question to those that felt the story, quests and cut scenes were lacking: would you have felt the same way if you never played TOR?  Would the whole "mute protagonist" have bothered you as much?

Probably not as much, no. I can't say for sure. I mean, I notice it in Skyrim too (compared to a Mass Effect or Dragon Age) but it doesn't bother me there nearly as much, perhaps because the gameplay is different by a wider amount and because I'm still making actual choices for myself.

EDIT: I can definitely say the poor duoing support wouldn't have bothered me as much, because until SWTOR I was used to duoing being completely shitty in basically every MMO since City of Heroes.

EDIT 2: Another way to put it, perhaps. SWTOR is the only MMO, so far, that makes me feel like the story is actually about my character. I don't think I realized how important that would be to me until it happened. So yeah I think I can definitely say it wouldn't have been nearly as striking an issue for me without playing SWTOR first.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 07:34:27 PM by Ingmar »

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Reply #127 on: August 13, 2012, 07:20:25 PM

I honestly cannot comprehend anyone finding TORs questing and writing superior to TSW, but I guess I'm obviously a minority there.
I'd say TOR writing benefits from recognizing better when it's a good time for the gums to stop flapping, on average. Brevity being the soul of wit, etc. The style is also less baroque and for some that can be a plus (granted, can be just as well an opposite for others)

or to put it differently, TOR writing is more like a movie dialogue, which may suit better a game so focused on 'cinematic experience'. TSW is more like literal adaptation of a book in that regard.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 07:22:02 PM by tmp »
Sjofn
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Reply #128 on: August 13, 2012, 07:47:14 PM

Quick question to those that felt the story, quests and cut scenes were lacking: would you have felt the same way if you never played TOR?  Would the whole "mute protagonist" have bothered you as much?

Pretty sure I said it elsewhere (but possibly on a different forum), that had this come out between Cataclysm and SWTOR, I would've been a lot more excited about it, because it's still a giant step forward from WoW's quest-delivery system (and, of course, blows the actual world lore parts out of the water). So it probably wouldn't have bothered me as much, but I can't say for sure. I'm OK with being a mute protagonist, but s/he has to have SOME input into what's going on, and TSW doesn't really deliver on that front (for me). Like Chell is mute in the Portal games, but I still feel like she's driving stuff forward, so it doesn't bug me. My characters in CoX never said anything (that I can recall) but I was obviously driving stuff forward (and eventually they even got to make decisions that mattered). I started to lose interest in WoW when I stopped feeling like my character was driving stuff forward and instead was part of Thrall's cheerleading squad.

I'm sure I'm supposed to feel like stuff is happening to my character that are beyond her control in TSW some of the time, as it is Cthulhu-y and horrible things beyond your control or understanding are supposed to happen. But I don't even get any sort of character growth as a result of it, which makes it fall flat for me.

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Reply #129 on: August 13, 2012, 08:04:14 PM

Quick question to those that felt the story, quests and cut scenes were lacking: would you have felt the same way if you never played TOR?  Would the whole "mute protagonist" have bothered you as much?
I don't like cut scenes in my games; the talking parts in SWTOR were fine because not only was I paying attention, but I had choices to make and things to say. My character being voiced has no bearing on it, I just don't like sitting still and listening to something (particularly because some of these monologs go on for minutes at a time and only hint at the quest objective like the aforementioned chess example) so even if TSW had a voiced (but no dialog options) protagonist I'd still be inclined to skip scenes when I'm feeling impatient.

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Nevermore
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Reply #130 on: August 13, 2012, 08:48:30 PM

Yeah, I think it's less about the PC not being voiced (though I'd prefer a voice if given a choice) and more about having no input whatsoever.  In GW2 your protagonist is voiced for the story elements but it's done really poorly and in such a way that it always seems to go against how I envisioned my character.  I actually disliked how they handled it in GW2 much more than TSW despite my character having the personality of a cardboard cutout in the latter.

Over and out.
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Reply #131 on: August 13, 2012, 09:14:06 PM

Yeah, I think it's less about the PC not being voiced (though I'd prefer a voice if given a choice) and more about having no input whatsoever.  
This for me too. I didn't mind being mute in DA:O, and there it was more pronounced because you did have dialog response choices. TSW goes one step further too by having some characters make a joke of it (like the reporter in the hotel in SC: "you must be a real hoot at parties" /paraphrase). But in the end, lots of cutscenes with no choices is just storytelling exposition.

It doesn't bother me in TSW because the stories are interesting enough and the voice acting isn't bad to me. But I'm not a real connoisseur smiley I do wish you could skip them though on second playthrough. I won't be maxing out one character much less playing two though.
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Reply #132 on: August 13, 2012, 09:19:15 PM

You can certainly skip them; I believe it's Esc but it might be Spacebar (unless you were looking for an option to auto-skip, in which case I got nothing).

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Reply #133 on: August 13, 2012, 09:20:07 PM

Pretty sure you can escape out of the cutscenes to skip them and still get the quest, Darniaq, so if you ever wind up having a change of heart, you have that option! It was that or spacebar, I know I did it some when I was repeating some quests I'd done on my Templar character. And felt vaguely guilty about it, but I ... I really hate that accent. And they do it so well.  ACK!


fake edit: doh, beaten. Well, whatever, I still got to slam another region's accent. Suck it, New England!

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Reply #134 on: August 14, 2012, 10:21:07 PM

Yea it's an all or nothing thing though. I'd rather be able to skip individual sentences or something. Minor peeve smiley
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Reply #135 on: August 14, 2012, 11:41:17 PM

Yea, I agree with the individual skip thing.

To me, the quest monologues were fun and interesting, but I figured they were more like the quest window that pops up before you accept the quest in WOW/Rift/etc (anyone remember when the quest text in that window slowly revealed itself instead of being on the screen all at once so the player could click 'accept quest' a microsecond later? Those were the days. Or something.), and I can dig that. It's not even that different from swtor's VERY numerous 'minor quests' where the only dialog was 'accept'/'accept while being a jerk'/'refuse' with the questgiver basically monologuing at you. It probably also helps that I'm not a native speaker, so things like accents don't really bug me one way or the other.

That said, I haven't logged in once since completing the main story, even though Funcom was able to sneakily renew my account for another month why so serious? (see the h8 thread)

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Reply #136 on: August 15, 2012, 09:47:38 AM

Thankfully very few accents annoy me.  I love hearing accents.  Poor delivery is far more likely to annoy me.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #137 on: August 17, 2012, 10:32:51 AM

Quick question to those that felt the story, quests and cut scenes were lacking: would you have felt the same way if you never played TOR?  Would the whole "mute protagonist" have bothered you as much?

Yes because you don't even get to make text choices.  BG taught me this long ago and I'd been arguing for that stuff long before SWTOR came out.  I don't mind being mute.  I mind being a moving prop.  That said I felt many of the cut scenes were great other than that.  I'm not sure about comparing them to SWTOR.  They shot for a smaller more mature audience and that gave them a huge leg up in writing.  

As for the game itself I just couldn't get into the combat long term.  Some of the weapons felt horrible mechanically and some I just didn't like.  The whole deck building concept fell apart because of this.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 10:36:44 AM by Amaron »
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Reply #138 on: August 17, 2012, 10:45:45 AM

(cutscene stuff)

As for the game itself I just couldn't get into the combat long term.  Some of the weapons felt horrible mechanically and some I just didn't like.  The whole deck building concept fell apart because of this.

I had this same exact problem.  I didn't like that my character was a mute half-wit, but I would have quickly ignored that if the weapon choices were something I liked, the combat was more fluid, the synergies *felt* better.

Starting off every combat spamming a builder five times... combat just felt flat.  A part from CC, the different decks just felt like different variations of the same thing on top of base weapon (QL) damage.

For what it's worth I went Ele + Fist to start, then switched to Ele + Blood (to make a chain+afflict synergy deck).  I had QL5 weapons in Blue Mountain, which is where I quit in disgust.  I'm still scratching my head over what I missed when I read people getting so into deck building, because I felt that weapon QL was 95% of the damage you do.
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Reply #139 on: August 17, 2012, 11:22:08 AM

Well for one thing, with fully a third of the weapons (Blades, Hammers, Fists) you automatically start off with a 5 stack so if you hate having to build up at the beginning of a fight you might want to try one of those.

As for the deck building, it mostly had to do with finding synergies.  I know I was working on a Blades AoE that applied affliction and then automatically penetrated anything that was afflicted.  It was going to be tankish and melt groups, which I'm sure is different from other builds that might focus on something else like high single target ranged damage that keyed off of hinders or something.

Over and out.
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