WvW Thoughts

[Nebu]

I deleted that comment like 5s after I posted it because I didn't want to get involved in the whole thing... you guys are too quick for me.

[Miasma]

His wording seems to indicate that you can queue for more than one WvW map at the same time. Like, queue for Server X Borderland, and for Eternal Battleground at the same time. I was under the impression that the last thing I queue for overwrites all previous enqueueing. Anyone else?

He's saying you should queue up for the borderlands, get in there, then queue up for eternal.  Once you are in the borderlands doing WvW you can queue up for eternal, not at the same time.

[Crumbs]

I didn't expect Tarnished Coast to do so well

Through pure dumb luck that's where I rolled.  The stats have been pretty even whenever I'm in WvW, with last night showing all three teams somewhere in the 10k range.  Oftentimes I read in chat that the other two teams work together against us.  Cute.

It feels like some professions can shoot through walls.  I'll leave a margin of clusterfuck error since I'm getting attacked by about five million sources all over the place.  And it is also kind of sad that AOEs can take out my engineer turrets (again, MOCE).  That was a smart move in WoW not to let AOEs take out things like shaman totems. 

Other than that I'm utterly hooked.  I can understand that it's not for everyone, but it's exactly the kind of crazy shit other games have been shying away from.  WoW, WAR, even Fallen Earth steered people towards smaller, instanced battles.  Finally, we are running around on huge maps and embracing the chaos. 

gibbering morons who crowd the field delaying Tom Brady from getting on the field but then take credit for what he does when he finally does

Comes with the territory.  I'm finding that the people who know what they are doing are giving good directions in /map chat, and people are, for the most part, following these directions.  On TC at least....maybe that's why we're doing so well 

Queues are way to long though, as has been said, and an approximate wait time is sorely needed.

[Falconeer]

His wording seems to indicate that you can queue for more than one WvW map at the same time. Like, queue for Server X Borderland, and for Eternal Battleground at the same time. I was under the impression that the last thing I queue for overwrites all previous enqueueing. Anyone else?

He's saying you should queue up for the borderlands, get in there, then queue up for eternal.  Once you are in the borderlands doing WvW you can queue up for eternal, not at the same time.

Ok. Too bad. What the game really needs, given the present situation, is a "Play now - Queue all borders" button really bad.

EDIT: On second thoughts, that wouldn't help us guilds and group of friends, like my group of friends, since either we all join the same one or we don't even bother most of the time. Still, "Queue all" would be a fair addition until they give us a transparent queue system.

[MediumHigh]

His wording seems to indicate that you can queue for more than one WvW map at the same time. Like, queue for Server X Borderland, and for Eternal Battleground at the same time. I was under the impression that the last thing I queue for overwrites all previous enqueueing. Anyone else?

He's saying you should queue up for the borderlands, get in there, then queue up for eternal.  Once you are in the borderlands doing WvW you can queue up for eternal, not at the same time.

Ok. Too bad. What the game really needs, given the present situation, is a "Play now - Queue all borders" button really bad.

EDIT: On second thoughts, that wouldn't help us guilds and group of friends, like my group of friends, since either we all join the same one or we don't even bother most of the time. Still, "Queue all" would be a fair addition until they give us a transparent queue system.

There should be two ques. People who just want to play in a battleground and people who want to play in a server. I'd wager half of the casual player base would choose the former than the latter if the pop is instant. Which will allow the serious players to you know play against other serious players without being bottle-necked from even joining by the casuals.

[Crumbs]

I'm wondering if WvW would have the same characterizations of "casual" and "serious."  Why would a "serious" player be attracted to so much randomness?  Why would a "casual" player expect to futz around away from the flag and get something in return?  Sooner or later there has to be teamwork or people are going to go back to pve for easy loot and xp. 

I've seen it happening.  The "serious" players are calling out orders and people are following them.  It's like a real war, with different levels of skill and awareness.  Like the rest of the game, teamwork is encouraged and things work better when it happens.

[MediumHigh]

I'm wondering if WvW would have the same characterizations of "casual" and "serious."  Why would a "serious" player be attracted to so much randomness?  Why would a "casual" player expect to futz around away from the flag and get something in return?  Sooner or later there has to be teamwork or people are going to go back to pve for easy loot and xp.  

I've seen it happening.  The "serious" players are calling out orders and people are following them.  It's like a real war, with different levels of skill and awareness.  Like the rest of the game, teamwork is encouraged and things work better when it happens.

Well, it'll "work" that way anyway we just don't need 1000000000 players queuing for a 2000 man instance. Some of those guys can get the same experience without being in the exact same server they que'd in.

[Pendan]

My guild transferred from Northern Shiverpeaks to Devona's Rest 10 days ago. Devona's Rest is second from bottom in rankings. Here is the thing though. We have won the first 6 hours after reset every day except the first day on server and one other night. This is US prime time and is always at least one borderland without a queue while we are taking over most of the maps. At about 1 am Eastern we start losing all that we own and over the next 18 hours we get hardly any points and finish second by a wide margin and with Kaineng losing every match. So even though we can never win a match-up we have organized play that is a lot of fun during prime time.

It is interesting seeing how low Northern Shiverpeaks is in rankings. Last day we were on the server was the only defeat. Lot of people talked about the AA running away after that first loss but I can tell you the Ausi guilds had transferred off the server without doing their normal dominance in the middle of the US night long before the reset. It was only because of those guilds that NS server had performed well. They generally lost ground during US prime time and 4 hours queues were normal. Eredon Terrace where AA went is now ranked 3rd while the other 2 post launch servers are at the bottom. Eredon Terrace is still only a medium population server and doing pretty well against the full servers. The other medium population servers are all at bottom of rankings.

[Crumbs]

I'm wondering if WvW would have the same characterizations of "casual" and "serious."  Why would a "serious" player be attracted to so much randomness?  Why would a "casual" player expect to futz around away from the flag and get something in return?  Sooner or later there has to be teamwork or people are going to go back to pve for easy loot and xp. 

I've seen it happening.  The "serious" players are calling out orders and people are following them.  It's like a real war, with different levels of skill and awareness.  Like the rest of the game, teamwork is encouraged and things work better when it happens.

Well, it'll "work" that way anything, we just don't need 1000000000 players queuing for a 2000 man instance. Some of those guys can't get the same experience without being in the exact same server they que'd in.

Ah i see.  It's true too, there's no way of knowing which areas have the longest and shortest queues.  Last night it was an hour and a half for eternal battlegrounds, but who knows, maybe it was 10 minutes for one of the others. 

[Miasma]

Yeah two queues would be a good idea.  The hardcore could represent the server on the static real WvW battleground and the rest of us could play in instances of eternal that get generated on demand, just randomly assign people to green/blue/red teams.  Would be even cooler if whoever owns the castle stops getting reinforcements of new players so that it changes hands a lot.

[Crumbs]

The hardcore could represent the server

How would hardcoreness be determined?  Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it's starting to sound like an argument for personal ratings, which would go totally against what this game is about.

[MediumHigh]

People who want to organize would be considered hardcore. And then there is those guys who use voice comm would be considered the hardest of the hardcore.

[Ingmar]

Realm identity is core to the experience of WvW, IMO.

[Zetor]

Yep. I'm sure there are people who'd be fine playing it like a random cross-realm AV/wintergrasp/tol barad on crack, but if you detach it from (server) communities completely, you get a faceless melting pot like RIFT's Conquest implementation. AKA, people only go in to get their 'loot' (or exploration points, or achievements, or whatever) in the most efficient way possible, and that's about it.

[MediumHigh]

Realm identity is core to the experience of WvW, IMO.

Playing the game and competing against the same guilds and seeing the same players is the core identity. The servers are coincidental, merely tools to facilitate that.

[tazelbain]

Just make a Plane of Dolyaks for people to chase around to their hearts content.

[Ingmar]

Realm identity is core to the experience of WvW, IMO.

Playing the game and competing against the same guilds and seeing the same players is the core identity. The servers are coincidental, merely tools to facilitate that.

It is as much about who you play with as who you play against. Random queuing into random green/blue/red assignments misses the point.

[Miasma]

The hardcore could represent the server

How would hardcoreness be determined?  Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it's starting to sound like an argument for personal ratings, which would go totally against what this game is about.

Not suggesting an actual system to label someone as hardcore.  It's just a natural assumption that people willing to spend an hour in a queue to get to the borderlands and then another hour queue to get to eternal would care more about stuff like server rankings.

I just want to have fun in a zerg with friends fighting other zergs.  I could play with other people who are shitty at PvP like myself.  Right now if I were to get a slot in WvW I worry I might be taking it instead of someone who would help the server more.

[MediumHigh]

Realm identity is core to the experience of WvW, IMO.

Playing the game and competing against the same guilds and seeing the same players is the core identity. The servers are coincidental, merely tools to facilitate that.

It is as much about who you play with as who you play against. Random queuing into random green/blue/red assignments misses the point.

Except a good number of players are happy just running around gibing things. Random que is for them.

[Ingmar]

Right now if I were to get a slot in WvW I worry I might be taking it instead of someone who would help the server more.

Don't worry about that. ANet put PVE encounters in WvW for a reason - everyone helps in their own way. Except dolyak escort farmers.

[Falconeer]

Mike Ferguson on queues.

No, you can currently only be queued for one map at a time. Here’s a basic breakdown on how the queues are setup:
-   You can only be queued for one WvW map at a time.
-   If you try to enter a WvW map while queued for another one and the new map is not full, you will join that new map and still be queued for the first one you tried to enter.
-   If you are queued for a WvW map and try to queue for a second WvW map that is full, you will be asked if you would like to queue for the second map. If you select ‘No’, you will still be in queue for the first map. If you select ‘Yes’, then you will enter the queue for the second map and no longer be queued for the first map.
-   You can be queued for a WvW map while in an overflow map, but you will not be able to see scores or team names while you are in an overflow map.
Due to the amount of people we see queued for maps while spaces are open in other maps, we have started talking about possible ways we can change the current setup to help get people into the other maps if they have space available, but that stuff is all still in the discussion phase so it’s not likely we’ll be able to change things anytime soon.

[sachiel]

Was WVW'ing yesterday on our server's TS, and they were making mention of an "all thief group" used primarily for scouting.  I have little exposure or experience with thieves, so what makes them the ultimate scouts?  It is their ability to cover ground quickly?  Is there an upper limit to run speed buff %?  Sounds like an awesome role to play in WvW.  I might make that my alt, and use my staff ele when we need it for group support.

[Falconeer]

In my experience a well geared thief in the hands of a competent player is an insanely good killing machine with too much survivalism. I am not gonna get into the whole "nerf them" thing, but it's only when you see how much damage they can dish out in a couple of seconds while at the same time being able to pull out with various kind of bullshitty invisibilities and teleports when things go bad that you start to hate them. Sure, "pfft all you have to do is this and this... l2p thieves die so easily", I know the story. Just saying, a full thief group if well played can perfom hit-and-run missions like no others if you ask me.

[Threash]

Well geared anything in the hands of a competent player is extremely good.

[nurtsi]

I was about vent when I noticed you already ran into some thieves. I retract my earlier comment about the game seemingly not having levels. This is the usual bullshit again. Last night I got  mauled by a thief before I could even blink. Two crippling strikes at 8k+ each and some other bullshit for 4k+. I have 20k hit points on my level 40 mesmer.

It seems like history repeating itself yet again. After few months there is zero reason to participate in WvW unless you are really level 80 and kitted out in the best possible gear. There is shit you can do against max level players.

I really hoped ANet would have had the balls to reduce the effect of levels/gear in PVP like they did in PVE. Seems I was wrong. Maybe the next MMO...

[Ingmar]

I haven't noticed any difference in WvW performance based on level of the player, unless you're talking about someone so low they don't have all their skill slots. If you're getting destroyed by someone it is almost certainly because of a skill or two they need to fix, not gear.

[Falconeer]

As a matter of fact any evel 80 players in full exotic gear will destroy someone who is not. But then again, WvW is really not about 1vs1 so if you are low level and not running around with a group of at least ten you are going to die no matter what. Levels matter but it's a team game and while they don't matter as in other games in the first place, good teampleay is going to close the gap by a huge amount. I still feel your frustration, but my experience comes from a rogue doing the same thing you are describing, to a group of about ten fresh level 80. This guy kept popping between us, devastating someone in 3 seconds and vanishing again, only to repeat the processs over and over. Sure, he can't stay invisible for more than a few seconds, but he can port far away enough with the Shadowstep/infiltration skill, and by using it over and over he was able to appear in the middle of our group, murder someone in 2 or 3 hits (Backstab for 11.5k, I swear) and disappear, probably shadowstepping (so evading any stun, etc..). We were probably being horrible noobs, but that shit is annoying. No wonder they nerfed heartseeker, I am just not sure it is enough.

[Lantyssa]

Area of Effect abilities affect people even if stealthed.  If you have a thief doing that, throw them down at your feet.

[Crumbs]

The guild was finally ready to form a group for WvW last night, only to find that if you want to form a group larger than 5, you need a 100 gold Commander's Compendium.   

So, a barrier to guild WvW as of now.  The twelve of us pooled our resources and came up with about 2.5g.  I'm wondering, are smaller guilds coming up with 100g, or are people joining groups in WvW?  Up to now I've just been running with the zerg ungrouped.

[tazelbain]

Having played in 5-15 sized groups with voice chat on IoJ(rank 6ish) against ET(rank 3ish), some more thoughts:

Trebs being able to hit towers from towers/fort/safe areas is really lamed design
Ele staff has a bugged skill that can take out siege at great distance. Fucking exploiters.
The difference in ranks is massive. You'd think that the difference between 3 and 6 would be least somewhat competitive but its not. Total portal-camping mismatch.
Tower and keep Upgrades seems to only serve the purpose of entrenching the match leader. Why the match leader needs that help is beyond me.
The underdog buff is laughable to the point of insulting.
Running in an organized group really changes the WvW for the better.  Even when your team is getting stomped.  So excited for when we get a competitive match next Friday (crosses fingers)

[Falconeer]

The lack of a raiding option is really weird. I can see what they were trying to do with that, but I definitely think they ran short. The idea being you should think zone-wide, not guild-wide. It makes sense, but takes away from the fun. I want to be able to see where my guildmates are and there's a few things more annoying than being in a borderland with a dozen of friends but only being able to see on the map the four in your party.

That said, not many know what the 100gold Commander Manual actually do. The answer is, not much. Sure, it gives that person a fancy icon on the map which certainly attracts attention and gives some sort of credibility to the "leader", and then it creates an open Squad (raid) which anyone can join simply by right clicking on the commander and picking "join squad". But once you are in the squad all you gain is the "Squad Chat", nothing more than your usual raid chat. You don't have a raid frame, you don't see your squad-mates HP or anything, you don't see them with a different colour on the map while on the other and you are still considered a member of any party you were already part of (if you were in one).

So basically, the 100gold manual is a glorified sub-chat that everyone can join, and some sort of a moving instant-action marker on the map. I am sure it will be useful in the future, but for example on our server there's only one player that has it and he is a terrible leader and a depressing strategist. So his Commander Marker on the map does more bad than good to our server. It certainly attracts a lot of hate too, since everyone can see at any given point where the "leader" is going and how stupid his plan is/was.

At the moment, there is no way in game to create a raid (or a party bigger than 5) of the kind we are used to.

DO NOT spend your guild money on the Commander Manual cause it does not do what you think it does and it's nothing that you don't already have with the Guild Chat.

[Crumbs]

Jackie Chan going "oooo?" .jpg

So if a guild wants to do WvW together for fun and influence, 5 is the max size?  Or do we just need to be near each other? 

[Falconeer]

I'm wondering, are smaller guilds coming up with 100g, or are people joining groups in WvW?  Up to now I've just been running with the zerg ungrouped.

In our guild, we form as many groups of at least 4 people as possible and try to keep the groups together through voice communication. It helps that while you don't see your guildmates marked with a different colour on the minimap, you see their names in brown in the world. That is not much but it something, the brown sticks out and makes it easy to keep close. You have to travel by sight, not by radar. And Guild Chat is your raid chat. Eventually, we are now used to it, but damn it was really disappointing at first. I really hope they change this.

5 is the max size to see each other's HP, conditions, boons, and minimap markers. You can bring as many guildees you want in a borderland, and they will all gain influence, but since they will have to be in parties of five they will gain influence as separate parties of five, not as a "raid".

[Zetor]

The guild was finally ready to form a group for WvW last night, only to find that if you want to form a group larger than 5, you need a 100 gold Commander's Compendium.   

So, a barrier to guild WvW as of now.  The twelve of us pooled our resources and came up with about 2.5g.  I'm wondering, are smaller guilds coming up with 100g, or are people joining groups in WvW?  Up to now I've just been running with the zerg ungrouped.

You play on Tarnished Coast, right? I'm sure you've heard about the Send Money To Odinzu For A Compendium Fund by now. 

[Ingmar]

Jackie Chan going "oooo?" .jpg

So if a guild wants to do WvW together for fun and influence, 5 is the max size?  Or do we just need to be near each other? 

How are you even getting into WvW together and in a timely fashion?