Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 06:12:50 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Guild Wars 2  |  Topic: GW2 Design limitations 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: GW2 Design limitations  (Read 28132 times)
Kageru
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4549


on: June 09, 2012, 08:08:50 PM


I'm a huge fan of what they are attempting, and I feel it suits what I want out of an MMO at the moment, but I think the approach has some innate weaknesses that are going to limit the games attraction. And they're not bugs that will / can be fixed during beta from what I see. They're the inherently negative side-effects of the strengths of the game.

1. "This skinner box is sparsely furnished and these pellets are terrible!". The normal MMO story is the steady gain in levels, powers and equipment to the "end" of the story. GW2 is trying to shake that up through the levels being auto-limited by zone and not really doing all that much. Most of your powers come from the weapons you hold, skill points enable you to buy utility skills but a lot of those are extremely specialized, don't fit your game-play approach and you can only slot a couple. That's pretty much why they tiered the utility picks this beta session to force some sort of progression. It also seems they intend to keep the gear progression flat, the most challenging content giving vanity rewards and PvP has its own gear progression. With a flat gear progression and relatively few ways you can leverage that advantage (in PvP, elite mode dungeons, raids) a lot of people, even those who complain about "traditional" MMO diku play are going to feel aimless. I think it's a good choice for Anet, with a smaller budget and no sub-fee they can't compete with the big budget Diku games and they'd have to give up on most of the interesting stuff they are attempting.

2. "What is the point of this class?". The traditional MMO design allows for a very strong character identity. A class will be aimed at one or more required roles and can get balanced (generally badly) so it uses its own mechanic to perform that role at equivalent capability. The advantage being that when you roll a character you know what the role will be, what you should be doing and you only need to compare yourself with other role equivalent classes. And even if you have some role limitations they can be somewhat balanced by side-role or mechanical advantages. In going for a soft role approach Anet have massively increased the ability to pick up and play with whoever is around but they've lost strong class identities. Some of them still feel like they have a class identity, the guardian sort of sounds like a tank, but the mechanics feel weak and counter-intuitive. The class roles fade even more when things get zergy. Not only is the quest to find a role somewhat unsatisfying in itself but it also means the classes are fairly equivalent. You could negatively describe them as DPS with flavor. And in such an environment classes that under-perform don't even have a role niche to fall back on.

3. "This is easy / I got steamrollered". Soft roles mean the designer can't make any assumptions about the party composition (one designer stated they test all dungeons with 5 of each class being the party), what skills are selected and besides positive class synergy is intentionally weakened. In world PvP and non dungeon events the designer can't even make any assumptions about how many people there are going to be. As CoH showed, and this repeats, presenting challenging content is very hard in such an environment. You have to balance it down a bit because you can't make many assumptions about how the party will be working and you can't insta-kill party members because it makes them feel powerless (although the downed mechanics is as much to make this less of an issue for their balancing). Add in scaling and the challenge and content is often going to be easy until you get wiped. It's very difficult to balance an encounter at the "very challenging but possible" level.

There are some advantages they can use. The weapon skills approach allows them to add encounter specific and encounter limited skills to make events and PvP maps quite varied. It's basically like the WoW vehicles and items mechanic but built into the game at the character level. If they come up with new game-play mechanics they can be slotted into the classes (even if only as counters or synergies)  without breaking the existing class design. And widening out the strategic elements of skill selection has some possibilities for an interesting approach to the end game. They could even modify class identity through this approach when they see how the game evolves.

That said, essentially, I see this game as having casual / social PvE gameplay with most of the competitive focus being on the PvP. I don't think it's likely to be a serious challenge to the "raiding MMO" of the day, WoW currently and something else in the future. That will be the game that has the competition for world firsts, the envy of purple gear and the imbalanced world PvP as that gear is used to pwn noobs and can charge a subscription for being a part of it. And frankly this game will probably be as interesting in its attempt to set up a viable alternative line of MMO development as it is in itself. I think when it goes live a lot of lessons on how their mechanics evolve are going to be learnt and provide information for future iteration.

It's still more positive than the "we provide amazingly polished single player leveling-consumed content" is as an ongoing MMO game mechanic though. And it gets a gold star in the "not a re-skinned WoW" competition.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848


Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 07:12:13 AM

Your points have some potential to happen, but it depends upon expectations.

1) For me this is actually a strong selling point.  I have no reason to do things other than going out an exploring or finding cool looking gear.  The leveling curve is flat so it doesn't feel like it takes longer and longer to gain power (skills and traits do make a difference).

Where all this is going to hurt are the Achievers.  They may not feel enough draw to satisfy their needs.

2) Class design is much more about flavor.  Playing a Ranger versus a Guardian versus a Necromancer feels a lot different.  Even which weapon sets you pick make a big difference.  It's not a class that will underperform but a player.  (Not to say there aren't any balance issues, but it's actually a lot easier to set the standard when everyone has the same end roll.)

3) It'll be tough.  It's something they're consciously aware of though.

I agree it won't replace the raid aspect for a lot of gamers.  Personally, I'm quite happy that isn't a focus.  I'm tired of playing a game for months to suddenly be funneled into a style of play I have no interest in.  All those things in your second to last paragraph are things I consider huge negatives.  It's good we can have different games to draw our attentions since it means we're both less likely to try and craft the other's activities to please us.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Spiff
Terracotta Army
Posts: 282


Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 02:46:44 PM

That said, essentially, I see this game as having casual / social PvE gameplay with most of the competitive focus being on the PvP. I don't think it's likely to be a serious challenge to the "raiding MMO" of the day, WoW currently and something else in the future.

That's the game they set out to make and, as opposed to so many MMO's that are out there, they shot very close to their mark.
The success of WvWvW will be the difference between this being 'a monster that consumes too much of my free time' or 'just something I visit once in a while after the first month because, well, no sub'.

This beta was a bit of a let-down in that respect for me because I cycled through 3 different servers and all of them somehow managed to have 90% of the maps about 2 hours after beta started.
This did not make for exciting PvP.

WvWvW balancing is the only balancing I care and am a bit worried about atm, because without raids/gear grinds and all that stuff: WvWvW is the only endgame and 'e-peen provider' there is, they're banking on it pretty hard.
Having seen the battle-zones and just a fraction of the stuff in there, it must have eaten up a huge amount of their development as well.
Unfortunately I don't see how they'll thoroughly test their matchmaking/balancing before launch (unless they're planning to have beta-weeks, nay -months, in the future).
Mosesandstick
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2474


Reply #3 on: June 10, 2012, 03:05:17 PM

I've levelled two characters to the story limit and been on two vastly different servers, Aspenwood and a new empty server. I also did it the first time entirely solo, the second time was pretty much only with a RL friend.

After that experience here are some more chinks in the PVE game that could be ironed out:

1. Trying to actually "solo" the game isn't always that fun. There are parts of the game/map where as somebody by yourself, you really don't want to be there. Respawn rates are insane and I'm going to guess that class balance means some classes just do soloing better than others. You really want to get an ad-hoc group going.

2. Empty servers are not so fun. Simply put, a lot of the content in GW2 needs other players. Without those peeps you're not only going to be unable to complete the quest, but you're map is going to be static. It'll be the same quests available all the time and you're rarely going to see those cool, epic fights.
Kitsune
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2406


Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 10:47:47 AM

The unfortunate thing about GW2's setup is that if you don't like a class's weapon skills, regardless of how much you may love their other mechanics, you may as well just pass on the class.  I'm in that position with the engineer: Love the concept, like all the gadgets, completely underwhelmed with all of their weapon skills.  It just doesn't thrill me.  So I'm in a position with them where I can try to go around in flamethrower mode 24-7 and just ignore the weapon skills entirely, but in doing that I'm losing a lot of potential versatility.

It would be especially nice if instead of a single fixed set of skills for a weapon, you had the option to pick from one of a couple different skill sets for each style of weapon, maybe something unlocked at higher levels.
kildorn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5014


Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 10:54:03 AM

The engineer base weapon skills are what killed the class for me. All the happy engineers I see run around with kits on 24/7. It's also what killed bow rangers for me (that and I feel like rangers suffer from a lot of boring utility skills that wind up with all my ranger builds being mostly passive signets)

I do think the huge limitation of the game concept is population based. The zones are fun right now, but 12 months after release will Queensdale still be fun for new players, or will they lack the critical mass to trigger and complete all the big dynamic stuff like the swamp demon thing?
Numtini
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7675


Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 10:59:22 AM

Quote
I do think the huge limitation of the game concept is population based. The zones are fun right now, but 12 months after release will Queensdale still be fun for new players, or will they lack the critical mass to trigger and complete all the big dynamic stuff like the swamp demon thing?

I spent some time on a not very populated server in the not very populated charr zone and the game is dull as paint without other players around.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Bungee
Terracotta Army
Posts: 897


Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 09:50:08 AM

I do think the huge limitation of the game concept is population based. The zones are fun right now, but 12 months after release will Queensdale still be fun for new players, or will they lack the critical mass to trigger and complete all the big dynamic stuff like the swamp demon thing?

Hard to say at this time, but isn't the scaling-down to the zone-level stuff intended to keep lower level zones interesting also for high level players? Doesn't even the loot get scaled on events?

Freedom is the raid target. -tazelbain
Numtini
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7675


Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 09:56:05 AM

It all gets scaled and you get level appropriate loot. That works for grouping with your friends without feeling like you're wasting your time or ruining the fun. However, it doesn't really work IMHO for getting people to go back and hang around once they're done with a region.

When all is said and done, eventually you run out of content and then you need an "end game."

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
kildorn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5014


Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 10:07:09 AM

It all gets scaled and you get level appropriate loot. That works for grouping with your friends without feeling like you're wasting your time or ruining the fun. However, it doesn't really work IMHO for getting people to go back and hang around once they're done with a region.

When all is said and done, eventually you run out of content and then you need an "end game."

I think the intent is to add new stuff to old zones and use downleveling to get players to go do the content (instead of being trapped into only making level capped content), I just wonder about getting old_player_01 to go back and do old zone content 9-12 months post release in order to populate the zones.
Zetor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3269


WWW
Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 10:13:49 AM

Rift is going to do this with 1.9 (they are adding mentoring and Instant Adventure stuff in low-level zones). There are a few ways to go about getting high-levels to participate:
- same rewards as doing max-level stuff and instant travel (GW and RIFT both have this)
- some sort of extra reward for mentoring down like karma or achievements. COH has a 'you mentored for x hours' badge that's a pretty good incentive for some people to group with lower level people by itself -- don't forget that in COH you lose a significant part of your power when you mentor.
- possibility to finish up content you never did when you were low-level (this is not a long-term solution, obv... but doing *all* low-level content could be an alternate track to unlocking typical level50 cosmetic gear that people'd usually grind daily quests or dungeons for, f'rex)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 10:16:04 AM by Zetor »

Dark_MadMax
Terracotta Army
Posts: 405


Reply #11 on: June 12, 2012, 10:27:11 AM

Quote
I do think the huge limitation of the game concept is population based. The zones are fun right now, but 12 months after release will Queensdale still be fun for new players, or will they lack the critical mass to trigger and complete all the big dynamic stuff like the swamp demon thing?

I spent some time on a not very populated server in the not very populated charr zone and the game is dull as paint without other players around.

I think the cross servers zones is next logical step ( zone is shared between servers if there is low pop issues)
Numtini
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7675


Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 10:40:29 AM

Quote
I think the cross servers zones is next logical step ( zone is shared between servers if there is low pop issues)

That's, of course, how it works in GW1. I hope their WvWvW is worth it because a lot of my concerns about this game would disappear if they had followed the same single server model.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #13 on: June 12, 2012, 11:18:19 AM

I'm a little confused on the cross-server guilds interacting with WvWvW. Can you WvWvW with your guildmates if they're not on the same real server as you?

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Draegan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10043


Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 12:03:48 PM

I'm a little confused on the cross-server guilds interacting with WvWvW. Can you WvWvW with your guildmates if they're not on the same real server as you?

No W3 is only server only if I remember correctly.  Everything else is shared, sPVP and tournaments and PVE.

Regarding the downleveling, the best part is being able to go to other newbie areas and pick up extra xp and stuff even if you outleveled it.  Everything is automatic.  In Rift you have to have to do a few extra steps from what I understand.
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #15 on: June 12, 2012, 12:05:18 PM

So, the one thing you *really* want an organized group for (well I guess you really need one for sPVP too and that works), is the one thing that the cross server guilds don't work with? Hrm. I can see that being a bit of a problem for existing guilds from other games, if servers fill up fast at release.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Draegan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10043


Reply #16 on: June 12, 2012, 12:08:48 PM

So, the one thing you *really* want an organized group for (well I guess you really need one for sPVP too and that works), is the one thing that the cross server guilds don't work with? Hrm. I can see that being a bit of a problem for existing guilds from other games, if servers fill up fast at release.

As long as you avoid those servers that seem to collect all the mega guilds like Reddit, Goons etc you are probably going to be ok.  During the BWE they upped server numbers too to allow people to transfer so I don't think they're set on server limitations just yet.
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #17 on: June 12, 2012, 01:02:31 PM

Regarding the downleveling, the best part is being able to go to other newbie areas and pick up extra xp and stuff even if you outleveled it.  Everything is automatic.  In Rift you have to have to do a few extra steps from what I understand.
Don't the heart quests reset daily? Seems like unless you're just rushing through everything you could get a couple days hitting those up in each area trying for different events or whatever.

Disclaimer: I don't play mmo 'correctly'. I should probably sig that.
Draegan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10043


Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 01:17:05 PM

Heart quests are one and done.
Kageru
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4549


Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 05:26:50 PM

I'm a little confused on the cross-server guilds interacting with WvWvW. Can you WvWvW with your guildmates if they're not on the same real server as you?
No W3 is only server only if I remember correctly.

I believe it is. And it sort of has to be or you'd get population flocking to the currently dominant side and fleeing the loser, and no tie to their home server.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #20 on: June 12, 2012, 05:31:28 PM

Have they said anything about a mechanism to get your friends onto your home server if they join up later and the server is full? Maybe the 'server full' stuff is just a beta-only problem?

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Kageru
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4549


Reply #21 on: June 12, 2012, 05:39:36 PM


They might not be quite as concerned with the "server full" problem since the over-flow servers will somewhat protect against that. But outside of that I remember reading about server transfers with a cool-down of some period before you could participate in world pvp.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
kildorn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5014


Reply #22 on: June 12, 2012, 07:22:51 PM


They might not be quite as concerned with the "server full" problem since the over-flow servers will somewhat protect against that. But outside of that I remember reading about server transfers with a cool-down of some period before you could participate in world pvp.


The info to date is that's a paid transfer service, is the issue. Overflows are great, and IMO with overflows the server status should be Low/Medium/High, but never ever Full (since there's always some place the game is willing to put you for a bit to play)

What I'd also like to see is some form of Mercenary system where is the WvW zones are full (and ONLY if they're full), you could be guested into someone else's WvW zones as a merc if they're losing/have a crazy low population in comparison to the other servers fighting. Something like if my WvW server is at 500v___ and I can't get in, but another server is at 50v150v50, I'd be given the chance to join one of the 50's for a bit to be a better form of the outmanned buff.
Spiff
Terracotta Army
Posts: 282


Reply #23 on: June 12, 2012, 11:14:45 PM

What I'd also like to see is some form of Mercenary system where is the WvW zones are full (and ONLY if they're full), you could be guested into someone else's WvW zones as a merc if they're losing/have a crazy low population in comparison to the other servers fighting.

Why only when yours is full though? I could imagine if I happened to be on a server that's destroying the others 'cause they have 3x as many people on I'd rather merc to somewhere else to get a little more challenging PvP.

I understand the reasoning behind the 'you fight for your server, it creates community' idea, but I'm anxious about the possibly huge imbalance especially at launch.
Their whole balancing system only works after enough data has been gathered, so for the first few seasons/weeks it could well be an utter clusterfuck.
Kageru
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4549


Reply #24 on: June 12, 2012, 11:37:36 PM


They definitely will be... but then people will still be working out how world PvP functions anyway.

The mercenary idea doesn't work too well when the servers are meant to be ranked. It would be more productive for a server that is getting pummeled to drop down to an appropriate rank than have the process confused by draftee's.

If they get the "guest" system working, and your home server is only really relevant in terms of your world PvP affiliation, I don't really see a problem with it. It will also be useful when the population thins out, people will start gathering on more "active" servers for leveling up.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025


Reply #25 on: June 13, 2012, 12:05:48 AM

I'm a little confused on the cross-server guilds interacting with WvWvW. Can you WvWvW with your guildmates if they're not on the same real server as you?
Regarding the downleveling, the best part is being able to go to other newbie areas and pick up extra xp and stuff even if you outleveled it.  Everything is automatic.  In Rift you have to have to do a few extra steps from what I understand.

Not only that the one time zone completion bonus payouts are outstanding. 2 green items and some rare trade skill stuff and dyes and other crap.
Only works in questing zones though. City zones are just an experience bonus.


murdoc
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3036


Reply #26 on: June 13, 2012, 08:18:39 AM

I'm a little confused on the cross-server guilds interacting with WvWvW. Can you WvWvW with your guildmates if they're not on the same real server as you?
Regarding the downleveling, the best part is being able to go to other newbie areas and pick up extra xp and stuff even if you outleveled it.  Everything is automatic.  In Rift you have to have to do a few extra steps from what I understand.
Not only that the one time zone completion bonus payouts are outstanding. 2 green items and some rare trade skill stuff and dyes and other crap.
Only works in questing zones though. City zones are just an experience bonus.

Plus, the cash was really nice. It more than doubled the amount of silver I had at level 16. I imagine this won't be as much of an issue later on, but I never was really flush with cash.

On that note, they really need to fix the costs associated to WvW. I think they need to remove damage to gear when killed in PvP and a different way to loot, if they really intend WvW to be a viable leveling option.


« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 09:39:35 AM by murdoc »

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025


Reply #27 on: June 13, 2012, 09:07:36 AM


Plus, the cash was really nice. It more than doubled the amount of silver I had at level 16. I imagine this won't be as much of an issue later on, but I never was really flush with cash.

On that note, they really need to fix the costs associated to WvW. I think they need to remove damage to gear when killed in PvP and a different way to loot, if they really intend WvW to be a viable leveling option.

I don't know about that though. My friend went out pvp'ing a lot more than I did and he looted a ton of good shit that would sell well if there was an economy past the end of the weekend. Rare dyes I never saw in the entire time I played and masterwork armor and weapons. The pvp repair costs were pretty trivial I felt even though I never topped 50 silver the entire weekend I never felt poor either.

murdoc
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3036


Reply #28 on: June 13, 2012, 09:42:54 AM

I wouldn't say I did a "ton" of WvW this weekend, but did spend a chunk of time out there on Sunday and got a grand total of two loot bags. When you're running trebs to knock down the main keep walls, or defending from a wall - it's almost impossible to loot anything even though you're tagging everyone like crazy.

We finally started running interference on supply lines and that netted us a little, but also got us killed a few times. I know that my armour wasn't 'broke' but I had a different piece get damaged with every single death.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Furiously
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7199


WWW
Reply #29 on: June 13, 2012, 10:27:19 AM

Yea I'd rather see auto looting when you kill someone. That said arrow arts are awesome for getting loot.

Draegan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10043


Reply #30 on: June 13, 2012, 01:23:32 PM

Speaking of dyes:

Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #31 on: June 13, 2012, 01:55:41 PM

WHAR TEH TRU BLACK
tmp
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4257

POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #32 on: June 13, 2012, 02:19:52 PM

Superior:


Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025


Reply #33 on: June 13, 2012, 05:18:34 PM

Superior:




Except your example appears to be an item that can only be dyed one color and therefore loses.

Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #34 on: June 13, 2012, 05:27:48 PM

Also fails the pokemon factor.
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Guild Wars 2  |  Topic: GW2 Design limitations  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC