The sky has not fallen (yet)

[Amaron]

The merges have made it better than it was at release for me.   Even places like Hoth routinely have 60 people in the middle of the night.   I no longer have to skip nearly every heroic in the game.

[Jherad]

To be fair, while I understand why so many don't want to subject themselves to the post-50 PvP, that's where the game shines. If it wasn't for the ridiculous amount of Crowd Control I must say this would be the most balanced and enjoyable hotbar-based arena PvP experience I've ever had, and I am totally looking forward to the ranked warzones. By the time they'll implement them pretty much everyone will have the best equipment or close to, which will level the field to "skill" and tactics.

Granted, none of that is even remotely visible with PUGs. You have to run with your team, which is the point of Ranked Warzones. But there's a layer up there which is really enjoyable (when you are not perma-stunned/rooted/feared).

Finally, allowing 8-players premades will make it all even better now that the servers are really full. While waiting for Guild Wars and the real deal, this is going to be a lot of fun.

I agree with you completely on this. Getting in a good PvP-only guild on Shadowlands and running premades has injected a lot more fun into the game for me, both before the transfers and after. There are a lot more PUGs running now, which are easy wins, but even when we were fighting other premades, the challenge was very satisfying. Ranked Warzones should be a lot of fun.

[Ingmar]

the question is when is this game moved to the graveyard?

Your contribution is sincerely appreciated.

I would agree, if Rift is there, TOR belongs there (with the massive merges). But your first post in two years?

The only measure that I assume matters is the level of activity, but I dunno how they do the graveyard thing. EVE and WoW forums get less traffic than this one currently, could we be looking at no released MMOs outside the graveyard? 

[Sky]

I'm surprised that old piece of crap whore WoW isn't in there.




 

[Trippy]

the question is when is this game moved to the graveyard?

Whenever I get around to it

[Sjofn]

By the time they'll implement them pretty much everyone will have the best equipment or close to, which will level the field to "skill" and tactics.

See, I don't think this is true. Maybe "pretty much everyone who likes grinding their e-dick against a cheesegrater" will have the best equipment, but I didn't even find a class I was good at in PvP until a few weeks ago, and there is simply no fucking way I'm going to spend the amount of time needed getting completely run over and destroyed to get equipment to have anything even remotely resembling fun in PvP.

It would be different if there was an Alterac Valley for me to hide in, where I won't immediately get marked and assist trained into a greasy smear (this already happens in some WZs, but at least in the pre-50 ones I have a fighting chance to get my ass out of it). But in 8v8, finding and marking me is utterly trivial, and I would be the tiniest of speedbumps. I don't like that, and there are a lot of people who don't like that.

The PvP gear situation in SWTOR is the stupidest thing about it, but they don't seem to have much of an issue with it, so it just means my answer for level 50 PvP is "don't bother."

[Falconeer]

The only thing I can tell you is that the concept of grind is subjective. I call "grind" every action you perform in a game in order to achieve something while not having fun. To those who love PvP the grind is non-existent as you play for the sake of playing, even when you die repeatedly due to inferior equipment, and getting better gear (therefore better performances too) is the added bonus. Sure, the goal is to even the field, but most of the people I know who prefer PvP to PvE are there regardless of gear.

In our old server me and my friends used to lose 8 matches out of 10, and while frustrated none of us ever felt we were grinding.

I totally see your point though, and as I said multiple times I greatly prefer PvP games where there is NO gear progression of any kind. But believe me when I say that lots of the post-50 players that vaporize you don't do it just because they have better gear (that plays a huge part, of course). They do it because they have played so much that they know exactly how to neutralize you as fast as possible in so many different ways. While I think that the human skill cap in games like SWTOR is pretty low, there's still a huge huge HUGE gap between causal PvPers and those* who take the thing dead seriously. A good example when it comes to that is Guild Wars: no equip progression, you are still gonna die like a fly. Gear progression is very important, but _sometimes_ it's an excuse we give to ourselves. In fact, I know lots of people with the top equip still dying a lot and performing terribly. In my opinion fun in PvP doesn't come with the equip. It doesn't even come from winning. It comes from the fact that you want to play against other humans. That's why PvE so easily feels like a grind to me, no matter how much I outgear the mobs.


* For the record, not talking about myself. I take it dead seriously but I suck.

[Ingmar]

If the ranked stuff moves the already-geared people out for the most part, and there are still enough ungeared 50s queuing to make zones pop at a decent rate, I could see possibly giving the level 50 pvp a try. That's a lot of stuff that has to go right, though.

Depends on just how good that free suit of pvp gear in 1.3 is, too, I guess. Although taking the giant pile of credits instead is probably too tempting for me. If the difference is a 10-15% sort of thing between starter gear and fully kitted out, that's one thing, if we're looking at more like a 50% difference then it doesn't really help.

I mean, I totally get what you're saying about the gear not making you automatically good, but lack of gear does kind of make you automatically bad, and there's a certain balance point where it doesn't matter how much you want to be PVPing, you're failing so much that it becomes unfun regardless.

[Evildrider]

You get about 900 Expertise out of the Recruit gear.  With full WH I just crack 1300.  Recruit is just meant to be so you don't get totally slaughtered.  You can tell the difference stepping up from Recruit to Battlemaster.   BM is way easier to get now than it was pre 1.2 though.

[Fordel]

I predict a lot of pre-made groups hitting a wall when they only have to fight other pre-mades in ranked warzone matches.



There's like 2 or 3 tiers difference between the nooby starter suit and the battlemaster suit, let alone the inevitable WarHero stuff.

[Falconeer]

Over-modded War Hero stuff you mean...
The monsters scoring 800k+ damage in a WZ are certainly scary. But hey, there lies the challenge and the whole point of "ranked" Warzones.

The part that sucks is that you can still get Ranked people in your Unranked queue. It would be great if the two things stayed properly separated.

[Soln]

But how many people PvP again?   Isn't it a small amount?

[Falconeer]

Apparently, no. Of course I have no hard data to support this, but I am under the impression that there's a word-of-mouth thing going on about the fact that the PvP combat is pretty enjoyable, and that there's much more people into it than we (and them) would have imagined.

Then again. I have no data to support this. Just a hunch, based on reading around a bit, talking a bit around with fellow PvP nuts from older games, and logging in every day since launch and having seen the daily life of a dying server and now the daily life of the EU most populated one.

One thing pretty much everyone I know into PvP keeps complaining a lot about is fucking CC being out of control, but that is something Devs aren't over yet. Maybe next generation.

[Evildrider]

One thing pretty much everyone I know into PvP keeps complaining a lot about is fucking CC being out of control, but that is something Devs aren't over yet. Maybe next generation.

That and 95% of people don't know how Resolve works.

[Falconeer]

This is really beyond resolve. The resolve bar is a very cool addition. But the problem lies way beyond such a short immunity timer.

[Amaron]

That and 95% of people don't know how Resolve works.

  Don't get me started on people who whine about resolve.   It's probably the best CC immunity mechanic ever.    It's basic CC itself that's retarded.

[Fordel]

People have been bitching about there being too much CC since the dawn of time. The issue is the definition of "too much CC" changes to whatever amount of CC causes that specific player to die that day.  


The number of people who will dive into a Warzone once or twice a week is fairly large.
The number of people who play every day on a competitive level is far far smaller.
The number of people who THINK they are playing on a competitive level but are actually just farming the casual folk is also fairly large, but these people are incredibly fickle and will disappear at the first sign of actual resistance.

[Falconeer]

That and 95% of people don't know how Resolve works.

  Don't get me started on people who whine about resolve.   It's probably the best CC immunity mechanic ever.    It's basic CC itself that's retarded.

Yeah, exactly how I feel.
Not controlling your character = not fun. I can live with 3 secs CCs like the cryogrenade ones, but 8 seconds looking at the screen? Fuck that noise. I think it's a mechanic that has to go.

[Fordel]

Cryo is 4 seconds.

All the 8 second CC's break on damage.



It's a non-issue.

[Sjofn]

CC doesn't bug me as much as all the fucking knockback does. But even that is more of a "eh, sux" thing than anything else. CC whining always amuses me, though. 

[Amaron]

All the 8 second CC's break on damage.

From a combat perspective they are fine.   I feel like in organized PvP the AoE ones will be too strong at objectives.   Especially when they can be chained.

[Fordel]

In organized PvP if your squad is eating multiple AE CC's together, you got outplayed.

[proudft]

At least you can actually use target markers in SWTOR to try and be coordinated.  That always was a great irritation to me in WoW, especially when doing 3v3 or 5v5 arenas.

I'll get the occasional match on my healy scoundrel where I am completely useless and always getting the shit beat out of me, and I'll be like, what, do I have a giant target over my head?   And I probably do.

[Falconeer]

Cryo is 4 seconds.

All the 8 second CC's break on damage.



It's a non-issue.

Why is break on damage a non-issue?
What part of watching the action going on for 8 seconds without being able to do anything is supposed to be fun gameplay? I am sure you know as well as I do that good teams can CC your fun into the drain if they mark you for that. This is only becoming more obviousnow that teams for Ranked are starting to form and are practicing chain-CCing on dangerous targets.

Sjofn, what amuses me is your rage for the Mass Effect

[Amaron]

In organized PvP if your squad is eating multiple AE CC's together, you got outplayed.

I thought you didn't even PvP seriously?  I'm not saying that makes your comment invalid or anything I'm just curious why you'd even care to debate pvp balance in high level play.

[Sjofn]

Sjofn, what amuses me is your rage for the Mass Effect

That has ... what, exactly, to do with anything? I haven't even mentioned it for months. People have wailed about CC since it was actually hugely shitty (whee, DAoC). I suspect even if it's a one second stun on a minute immunity timer, people will bitch about it.


And Amaron, don't confuse Fordel with me. I'm the one who ultimately gives no fucks about level 50 PvP (because I am capable of amusing myself in other ways), Fordel PvPed pretty relentlessly until the gear situation in SWTOR got WAY too stupid.


EDIT: Oh, and proudft, I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure people were marking other people in WoW arenas when I last wandered in. It's been ages, though, and I could just be high.

[Amaron]

And Amaron, don't confuse Fordel with me. I'm the one who ultimately gives no fucks about level 50 PvP (because I am capable of amusing myself in other ways), Fordel PvPed pretty relentlessly until the gear situation in SWTOR got WAY too stupid.

I'm probably confusing him with somebody else then.  I thought he was a card carrying member of the "diku pvp is retarded" crowd.

[Falconeer]

Sure people would complain about having control taken away in a videogame even if it were 1 second. What's cool about it? But trying to be more reasonable, there's a lot of difference between 1 second, 4 seconds and 8 seconds in a quick, furious match of... everything. Crowd Control should be reserved for mobs in my opinion. And yes, I've been complaining about it since An Ex Por, circa 1997. By the time DaOC came out I've been already wondering what idiot came up with that shit for about 4 years.

The Mass Effect thing was just a joke. We gamers whine about silly things, don't we?

[Fordel]

You can mark your own team in WoW, not the enemy, if I remember that right.

In organized PvP if your squad is eating multiple AE CC's together, you got outplayed.

I thought you didn't even PvP seriously?  I'm not saying that makes your comment invalid or anything I'm just curious why you'd even care to debate pvp balance in high level play.

I'm an avid PvP'er in every MMO I've ever played.




Falc- In casual play, break on damage CC almost never lasts 8 seconds.

In ranked play, chain CC-ing and prevent your own side from being chain CC'ed is all part of the game.

[Ingmar]

You can mark your own team in WoW, not the enemy, if I remember that right.

Correct, we always had each other marked for easier visibility, but we couldn't mark an opposing healer or anything like that.

I am pretty sure DAOC broke me for being able to evaluate what kind of CC is good or bad in other games. 8-10 second CC feels like nothing to me, I'm not bothered at all by it unless it is a stun.

[Sjofn]

In PUG PvP (which is all I do, obvs), I can count on one hand the number of times a non-stun CC has lasted its full duration. The number of times it gets immediately broken by someone on my team? PRACTICALLY INFINITE. And that's fine, it just means my CC is more like a ghetto interrupt (especially since my scoundrel's interrupt's range is assier than my AE mez). It also means when *I* get CC'd, it's probably going to be broken within two seconds, sometimes by the very person who CC'd me.

Using CC is just another skill set. I just can't get upset about something that is just as likely to save me as fuck me over (you know, like everything else you do in PvP).


EDIT: This is, of course, assuming CC that doesn't last. You know. A minute.

EDIT EDIT: And I arena'd a lot more recently that you have, Ingmar and Fordel, which is why I even said anything about the marking. I seem to recall being surprised by it.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: That said, I'd prefer you only be able to mark your own team in SWTOR, being assfucked by the assist train because I have a gear over my head sucks much more nut than any number of CCs. 

[Falconeer]

In ranked play, chain CC-ing and prevent your own side from being chain CC'ed is all part of the game.

But this is what I am saying: it's a part of the game I despise. Not when it's a couple of GCDs, definitely so when it gets above that and as high as 6-8 seconds. Stupid.
Anyway, we obviously feel different about it. More than fine.

[Amaron]

In ranked play, chain CC-ing and prevent your own side from being chain CC'ed is all part of the game.

I don't mind this part at all.  I was talking about objective defense actually.  In particular I think flash bang from stealth might be a problem.  There's no real way to protect against an operative and some other stealther waltzing up and just capping your point.   You can use your CC break but in a warzone that's not always up.

In general though I think other CC is possibly fine.  It's hard to judge the cleanses though when the basic interface is so asstastic in the first place.

[Fordel]

In ranked play, chain CC-ing and prevent your own side from being chain CC'ed is all part of the game.

I don't mind this part at all.   I was talking about objective defense actually.   In particular I think flash bang from stealth might be a problem.   There's no real way to protect against an operative and some other stealther waltzing up and just capping your point.   You can use your CC break but in a warzone that's not always up.

In general though I think other CC is possibly fine.  It's hard to judge the cleanses though when the basic interface is so asstastic in the first place.

Yes there is, do not stand beside the actual node. If they have to walk even half a second distance to cap, the CC will run out before it finishes and you'll interrupt them.

If there is two of them and one of you and no one in a floating position to cover for you in such a situation, you were outplayed. They managed to generate a 1v2 situation against your team at WZ objective, you're not supposed to be successful in that situation.



Falc- Each CC could only last one second and good teams will still devise rotations that lock you in place for those multiple GCD's. As it stands now, you eat 8 seconds at most then get a full resolve bar to act freely after wards and they won't be able to repeat that duration of CC for another 45 seconds to a minute.

-edit- Basically, Action Denial is always going to be a part of any game where you aren't dead after the first few shots. Be it kiting, stuns, preventing positioning, whatever.

[Amaron]

Yes there is, do not stand beside the actual node. If they have to walk even half a second distance to cap, the CC will run out before it finishes and you'll interrupt them.

Hmm I thought the range on that ability was 30m for some reason.