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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Guild Wars 2  |  Topic: First Impressions 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: First Impressions  (Read 57174 times)
Tyrnan
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Reply #35 on: April 28, 2012, 10:58:32 AM

I mean that I'm a Necromancer and get steam-rollered by a spawn because I tried to get close enough to use an ability.  Then while I'm down they all kill me in about one second.

Buffing the group up to match the number of people is fine, they just need to not focus fire on newbies.
Ah ok, yes that's happened to me quite a few times as well. Or the one-shot by the final boss of the tutorial. In the case of the earth elemental it's not even something I could avoid. There's no telegraphing, no red circle on the ground I'm standing in, but one second I'm standing there with full health beating on it and the next I'm in the downed state.

I'm guessing when they increased the difficulty between the last press beta and now they may have just slightly overtuned it  awesome, for real I found one personal story quest for the Norn that was completely impossible to solo. At least half a dozen mobs, including a named, that all aggro at once and the named summons elementals just for good measure. My necro was ground into a greasy stain in seconds time and time again until I just finally just gave up.
Modern Angel
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Reply #36 on: April 28, 2012, 11:06:00 AM

Do you dodge? Not a flippant question. You really do have to dodge. Often.

That auto-death in the tutorial at the big boss is intended. It's their idea of a tutorial for how you get up from near death. They need better tutorials. This isn't the first time it's been brought up.
Falconeer
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Reply #37 on: April 28, 2012, 11:07:42 AM

You basically don't gain skillpoints until level 5 cause you can't spend them anyway (except for one, in healing). At level 5 you unlock the first Utility Slot, so you can start spending points which from now on you should get at the rate of one per level. I know this cause the game told me when I reached level 5 with a little tutorial-like box. It could have been explained better, or earlier, but it wasn't that big of a deal to me. I figured it out, and my patience has been rewarded with an absence of frustration for not having my hands held too tight.

Maybe it's me, but aren't we talking too much about tutorials and too little about the gameplay?

Nevermore
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Reply #38 on: April 28, 2012, 11:09:07 AM

And how the fuck do you dodge?  You know, GW1 actually had a pretty good tutorial for teaching basic game concepts.  There's no excuse for this clusterfuck.

Edit: The title of this thread is 'First Impressions'.  Tutorials tend to be integral to a player's first impressions of the game, since they teach a player how to actually play the game.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 11:11:27 AM by Nevermore »

Over and out.
Modern Angel
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Reply #39 on: April 28, 2012, 11:11:42 AM

Either double tap a direction, keybind it to something else, or that giant DODGE button that looks like a guy right under your skill bar.

I'm kind of torn here. Because there really DO need to be way better tutorials. And the first thing I would do, if I were in a relatively small closed test with a lot more dev access, is give a post-mortem on the open beta and STRESS THAT BETTER TUTORIALS NEED TO BE THERE. But I couldn't say if I were in that closed test, even if I were. So we will never know!

But on the other hand, dudes (not necessarily dudes here, but dudes in general) really do need to chill out a bit. I'm thinking back to the very first diku MMOs I ever played. Their tutorials sucked, too. And I made do. Then we all look back at the ten years of diku gaming we did and we're thinking WELL THIS IS REALLY CONFUSING. Except it's not, other than when compared to the last ten years of baby food mental mush we've been spooning into our mouths. I mean, Christ, people are freaking out on the forums that they don't know where the quests are.

I have had a tendency, because I figured it out on my own, to think of this game as just an iteration on old formulas. But now I'm really rethinking just how revolutionary it is, based on what seems to be a loud minority reaction to the stuff people don't understand or don't know. Falc is right: tutorial or not, people really need to leave a significant chunk of their assumptions outside the door before they walk in. There are some really fundamental changes which I thought were mostly subtle but, I'm now realizing, really aren't.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 11:17:33 AM by Modern Angel »
Phred
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Reply #40 on: April 28, 2012, 11:22:15 AM

Uh, no the alternative to the overflow thing is sticking you in a queue.  It is one of the best ideas the game has.

Um, Guild Wars one managed to have a way for people in different instances to hook up and how hard is it to actually put people in the same group in the same overflow area?
kildorn
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Reply #41 on: April 28, 2012, 11:23:56 AM

There are a lot of fundamental changes from any other game you'd be coming from. And they're not explained, at all. The only reason I walked in knowing what to do is that I watched a shitload of videos from the press beta weekend and had them explain to me what half this shit was.

What I'm a little surprised by is the amount of hardware/driver issues showing up, considering the press event. Given the issues, either this is a really unstable build, or they lucked the fuck out with half the invited press actually being able to play.
Nevermore
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Reply #42 on: April 28, 2012, 11:27:34 AM

I have had a tendency, because I figured it out on my own, to think of this game as just an iteration on old formulas. But now I'm really rethinking just how revolutionary it is, based on what seems to be a loud minority reaction to the stuff people don't understand or don't know. Falc is right: tutorial or not, people really need to leave a significant chunk of their assumptions outside the door before they walk in. There are some really fundamental changes which I thought were mostly subtle but, I'm now realizing, really aren't.

The mistake you're making is assuming I (or someone like me) haven't left my assumptions behind.  The problem I'm having is the game itself isn't filling in that void with information of its own.  There's a reason why games of the past 'spoon fed mush' to players:  because many players don't find struggling to figure out basic game concepts to be fun.

Over and out.
Lantyssa
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Reply #43 on: April 28, 2012, 11:29:43 AM

Do you dodge? Not a flippant question. You really do have to dodge. Often.
Dodging works well when dealing with small numbers of foes.  A big event with lots of people is chaotic enough that it can be hard to time them.  (Yes, I know how to dodge.  Quite well...)

Someone make a bunch of people log off Fort Aspenwood so I can transfer.  All the servers where I know people are full, so I can't queue up onto them, and my attempts yesterday didn't work.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Falconeer
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Reply #44 on: April 28, 2012, 11:32:36 AM

By no means I intend to tell people what they should or should not say about the game. Just wondering... who gives a fuck about tutorials? This is not rocket science nor Eve. You are gonna learn everything in a couple of hours, if you are really slow, and then gonna stick with all the other aspects of the game for weeks/months. I'm more interested in Arenanet crafting a game that works, has depth and content and I am glad they apparently put resources into that instead of making sure to babysit every single aspect of the first 2 hours in case someone wasn't willing to wait or figure things out simply because they aren't as cookie cutter as usual.

Modern Angel
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Reply #45 on: April 28, 2012, 11:33:26 AM

I dig. And there need to be better tutorials. But it's like the dodge button. There's a big DODGE button to the right of your health, over the hot bar (I said it was under, but it's over; I'm staring at it now). If you hover over it, it even says "double tap or press this to dodge and evade attacks". There has to be a middle ground between "we need more/better tutorials" and "I'm not going to press anything on my UI". I am not especially smart and I figured the game out pretty darned quickly.
Nevermore
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Reply #46 on: April 28, 2012, 11:39:16 AM

Funny how I'm apparently stupid enough to not be able to pick up this game very quickly yet I picked up Eve (and literally every other MMO I've ever played, including GW1) very fast.  You know there's a problem when Eve has a better introduction to their game than GW2 has.

Over and out.
Modern Angel
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Reply #47 on: April 28, 2012, 11:42:04 AM

I don't know what you want, dude. You used the word stupid, not me. I just don't find this fundamentally more complicated than the first time I played WoW. Which doesn't mean that it doesn't need more and better tutorials. It just means that folks need to chill because nobody was talking about WoW's tutorials after the first week.
Falconeer
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Reply #48 on: April 28, 2012, 11:45:50 AM

Not stupid at all. Lazy.
I am sure you weren't this lazy when you started playing EVE, but the more the gaming industry has tried to open up to more people through extreme handholding, the lazier everyone got, including older players.
Also, EVE didn't have a good introduction, but they had to work hard on one (and it took them years) because the game presented a WALL to new players.

Come on.

Anyway, sorry for the prolonged derail. Back to the gameplay. Or the lack of tutorials.

Nevermore
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Reply #49 on: April 28, 2012, 11:47:09 AM

I don't know what you want, dude. You used the word stupid, not me. I just don't find this fundamentally more complicated than the first time I played WoW. Which doesn't mean that it doesn't need more and better tutorials. It just means that folks need to chill because nobody was talking about WoW's tutorials after the first week.

If you don't see the difference between how WoW starts their game and GW2 starts, then I don't know what to tell you either.

Over and out.
kildorn
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Reply #50 on: April 28, 2012, 11:48:02 AM

Lazy is devs not wanting to explain their mechanics anymore. Instead they put them on loading screens and such and just hope you've seen the loading screen tip before you actually need to know it.

Where, exactly, are combo field effects explained? They're not in game, they're not in the tooltips, and they're a huge part of the game. You know how they work because you read dev interviews and blogs outside the game. Which leads to a SHIT experience for new players.

edit: and the difference with this and WoW is that at level 1, there's barely any mechanics to explain and it's unpossible to die. WoW doesn't throw you into a raid encounter in the first 5 minutes and say "good luck!", if they did they wouldn't have nearly the subs they have.
Nevermore
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Reply #51 on: April 28, 2012, 11:51:24 AM

Not stupid at all. Lazy.
I am sure you weren't this lazy when you started playing EVE, but the more the gaming industry has tried to open up to more people through extreme handholding, the lazier everyone got, including older players.
Also, EVE didn't have a good introduction, but they had to work hard on one (and it took them years) because the game presented a WALL to new players.

Come on.

Anyway, sorry for the prolonged derail. Back to the gameplay. Or the lack of tutorials.

Yes, clearly the poor introduction to this game is my fault.  I'm the lazy one, not the Arenanet developers who half-assed the introduction to their game.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue about this anymore.  When you wonder why more people aren't playing this game after it's released, be sure to blame the lazy players and not the mistakes Arenanet is making.

Over and out.
Tmon
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Reply #52 on: April 28, 2012, 12:00:53 PM

There is an explanation of dodge in game, it's tucked away in the PVP lobby.  When you first go to pvp there's a small lobby that explains how to cap an area, how to deliver a death blow and one other mechanic.  From there you go to the pvp lobby and can enter WvW or just wander around hitting different heart markers.  One of them is about dodging and even has practice bots.   I made an alt to see how PvP leveling looks and while it's possible it looks like it will be a very slow path to unlocking skills.
Modern Angel
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Reply #53 on: April 28, 2012, 12:16:14 PM



If you don't see the difference between how WoW starts their game and GW2 starts, then I don't know what to tell you either.

I'm trying to be constructive here. I'm granting that probably you and Falc are both right. More tutorials, better tutorials, and you're lazy. These are not mutually exclusive propositions.
Phred
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Reply #54 on: April 28, 2012, 12:25:19 PM

Ok want another real pisser? You cant mail stuff you your alts. Wtf??
Modern Angel
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Reply #55 on: April 28, 2012, 12:26:44 PM

My understanding is that that's temporary. I could be wrong, though.
Nevermore
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Reply #56 on: April 28, 2012, 12:29:03 PM



If you don't see the difference between how WoW starts their game and GW2 starts, then I don't know what to tell you either.

I'm trying to be constructive here. I'm granting that probably you and Falc are both right. More tutorials, better tutorials, and you're lazy. These are not mutually exclusive propositions.

That's right.  Keep telling yourself that I'm 'lazy'.  I hope Arenanet has the same attitude as some of the people in this thread in regard to criticism.  We'll see how well that works out for them.

Over and out.
Modern Angel
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Reply #57 on: April 28, 2012, 12:35:00 PM

HOW CAN I PLAY THIS GAME WITHOUT TUTORIALS? HOW CAN ANYONE? I BET NOBODY GOT PAST LEVEL 3!

Also, the alt mailing thing. Bank knowledge is all shared to my knowledge, which I just remembered. So you can switch that way.
Nevermore
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Reply #58 on: April 28, 2012, 12:35:21 PM

So I went into the keep where the skill point thing is.  Turns out you just buy a book from the guy.  Double click the book for a skill point, straight forward enough.  But what do I do with this book now?  Double clicking it did give me the skill point, but it didn't consume the book.  It just seems to take up a space in my very small inventory now.  It says 'Account Collectible' so is this something I should keep?  I don't know of any way to transfer it to another characters, as mail doesn't work for that (tried that last night).  Is there an account bank?  I would just destroy it because I need the inventory space but I have no idea if there's anymore use for it.

Over and out.
Modern Angel
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Reply #59 on: April 28, 2012, 12:39:52 PM

There was something but it's not there currently and I can't elaborate because it would be NDA if I were in the closed test. Which I'm not. You don't need to keep it in the beta.

But yeah, the bank is an account bank.
Numtini
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Reply #60 on: April 28, 2012, 12:42:20 PM

It needs more tutorials. It's not unplayable without it, but it's disappointing in a game that's reached this point as are the hardware bugs.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Tmon
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Reply #61 on: April 28, 2012, 12:43:33 PM

The bank is available to all characters on the account.  You can probably dump Arena Net isn't big on explaining every little bit of the game, but they do tell you if an item has a utility beyond being a random piece of loot and making sure that even if you throw away something vital that you can fairly easily get a replacement.
Ingmar
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Reply #62 on: April 28, 2012, 12:45:46 PM

You are missing the point.  If you get put into overflow is because that other instance was full, when it isn't a notice pops up to let you in.  The alternative to that is a queue.

I think you're missing the point, it sounds like if people are in the full instance they can't leave to go to the one their friends got overflowed to. That is a big problem.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Nevermore
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Reply #63 on: April 28, 2012, 12:48:16 PM

HOW CAN I PLAY THIS GAME WITHOUT TUTORIALS? HOW CAN ANYONE? I BET NOBODY GOT PAST LEVEL 3!

OMG! I got to level 6!  How did I do that?!?

Being able to struggle your way through the game and having fun doing it are not the same thing.  There are some things I actually like.  I like the way the minion skills have separate uses that affect the minion after their summoned depending on the minion (sacrifice for health, explode).  I like the idea of the Necro shadow form thing, though in practice it doesn't seem to accomplish much.  I love the art and visuals, aside from the hooker clothes.  But when the main challenge of the game early on isn't the quests or mobs you fight but the game itself, then there is a problem.  You can dismiss that as the fault of the user, but you'd be extremely foolish to do so.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 12:51:42 PM by Nevermore »

Over and out.
Nevermore
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Reply #64 on: April 28, 2012, 12:50:54 PM

The bank is available to all characters on the account.  You can probably dump Arena Net isn't big on explaining every little bit of the game, but they do tell you if an item has a utility beyond being a random piece of loot and making sure that even if you throw away something vital that you can fairly easily get a replacement.

Well, that's why this book specifically confuses me.  The name is in blue, as if it's important.  But it seems to have no use at all after you double click it for the skill point.  It sounds like it'll have a use eventually, it just doesn't right now.  Which is fine, this is still a beta after all.

Over and out.
Modern Angel
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Reply #65 on: April 28, 2012, 12:54:44 PM

You can dismiss that as the fault of the user, but you'd be extremely foolish to do so.

Remember when I said that the tutorials were fine and shouldn't be beefed up? That was awesome.
Nevermore
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Reply #66 on: April 28, 2012, 01:00:22 PM

You can dismiss that as the fault of the user, but you'd be extremely foolish to do so.

Remember when I said that the tutorials were fine and shouldn't be beefed up? That was awesome.

And yet you still felt the need to argue.  Funny, that.

Over and out.
Modern Angel
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Reply #67 on: April 28, 2012, 01:03:18 PM

Yep. Because even with tutorials being desperately needed in spots  you're being a huge blubbering baby about it. Both things can be true. And from there, I'm really NOT going to argue about fucking tutorials anymore.
Phred
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Reply #68 on: April 28, 2012, 01:06:14 PM

The bank is available to all characters on the account.  You can probably dump Arena Net isn't big on explaining every little bit of the game, but they do tell you if an item has a utility beyond being a random piece of loot and making sure that even if you throw away something vital that you can fairly easily get a replacement.

So instead of the convenience of mailing items to other characters they want you to go all the way back to the main city and put it in the bank then run there on the other char and fetch it out?
Nevermore
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Reply #69 on: April 28, 2012, 01:06:44 PM

Yep. Because even with tutorials being desperately needed in spots  you're being a huge blubbering baby about it. Both things can be true. And from there, I'm really NOT going to argue about fucking tutorials anymore.

And you're being a defensive fanboy about it.  If you're going to take criticism about a game personally, then maybe you should just take a step back and get some perspective.

Over and out.
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