Kickstarter - The Thread.

[Sky]

For video games, only pledge for projects you believe need to be made and won't otherwise (the 'heart' pledge) or to studios known to be competent (short list! Larian...). I severely limit my video game pledges and have made a couple I wish I could have back. But I know when I'm gambling (TUG) vs a sure-fire win (Larian). Maybe most importantly, be careful of nostlgia campaigns.

For other stuff, KS has been amazing. Since there isn't really a steam sale for actual goods, I've been getting some pretty great deal on books and minis. I've helped some sculptors get started with their own companies or maintain a more reliable income stream. I've funded some really amazing art that would otherwise take years to fund. There's one guy who is putting out some of the most amazing sculpts in the industry, but he's a one-man shop working out of his house. His wife became pregnant and eventually had to quit her job to have the baby, so he had to take on other work to pay the bills, meaning no time to sculpt for the old project as intended. People went nuts, but really, what choice would you have? The guy was great about it, very open and honest, and let people trade in their remaining pledges for existing product if they wanted. Now the baby is old enough where she can start working again, and he's psyched to get started. So ultimately I'll have some amazing miniatures, helped this guy launch his business, and years worth of angry people being bitter will be a funny memory of wasted angst.

Of course there are going to be people angry and disappointed. Because they do not do their due diligence. People for the most part are selfish, short-sighted and stupid. This leads to a lot of anger that is directed at whatever they perceive to be the problem. That doesn't mean they're right or even reasonable.

[eldaec]

Normal pre-orders or even stock orders also often turn out terrible or underdeliver. People got sand in their vaginas even when buying Black and White at retail, or after paying for years of UO/EVE subscriptions despite Trammel/suicide-ganking (delete as applicable).

Buying things carries risk of disappointment and that is true whatever term people wish to make up for the process of doing so on Kickstarter.

When I order something on KS,  I consider it a pre-order, and at a cost of higher risk it comes with free manchild points because I got it early or because of whatever superficial exclusive bullshit gets loaded into the KS edition.

[Lantyssa]

The first one is the only sane way to approach it as a consumer.  Anything else has decent chances of ending in tears and lost money.

[Paelos]

None of what you say is clearly defined by Kickstarter though. They don't police, and they don't try to educate their users. Because that would take money away from them doing nothing.

https://www.kickstarter.com/rules

I mean just read the rules. It's fucking laughable. They are allowing almost whatever to get funded because if it fails they still get their cut. There's no incentive for them to do any due diligence at all, or educate their users to do that themselves. I can only hope that eventually they get sued into the ground when things go really wrong, and totally rewrite how this process works.

What they should do is educate the users on good and bad projects, cap amounts so that you can't just have runaway campaigns, and have some enforcement on people that fail to deliver. They should hold money in retainage for projects as they progress, only to be released as goals are met.

But that's actual work, dawg.

[Jeff Kelly]

There are competitors taht do that. They are orders of magnitude less popular - for obvious reasons.

[Paelos]

There are competitors taht do that. They are orders of magnitude less popular - for obvious reasons.

Thus my issue. I see many people in politics forums scream about consumer protections, yet for some reason Kickstarter gets a pass.

[Sky]

They should hold money in retainage for projects as they progress, only to be released as goals are met.

That would fuck over the guys who need KS the most. A good half of the projects I've backed would've folded without the money up front. And all but a couple were great projects.

I'm pro consumer protection, but KS is what it is. Don't like it, don't use it. But don't bitch if you don't do your homework and get burned, it's not Amazon.

[jgsugden]

They really should establish some minimum standards for preparations that require someone asking for funds to demonstrate they used reasonable resources to reasonably estimate their planned path to reach their objectives.  However, in the end, you're gambling on KS.  Some bets are pretty good ones - some are long shots. I've participated in 6 and all 6 seem likely to deliver on their promises, but they're delivering quite late on 2/3s of them.

[Sky]

That's why it says 'estimated delivery'.

[MahrinSkel]

That kind of due diligence is exactly what the backers are supposed to do. If I put up a kickstarter for a money bonfire, send me money and I will burn it up in a fire, it's on you to figure out if I am actually going to burn real money, or if I'm just going to feed it Monopoly money and take the real stuff to the Ferrari dealership.

As has been pointed out, the Kickstarter community is doing a much better job of differentiating the good ideas from the bad than your usual funding sources, and they're doing it without raping the creators financially or mucking up the project by wrestling for control of it.

--Dave

[Tebonas]

Never bet with money you can't afford to lose, same thing holds true with Kickstarter. Its more of a gambling venue than an online vendor. Once in a while you win (Banner Saga, Divinity, Shadowrun, Wasteland 2), but the rest of the time should be filed under "Shit happens when I gamble."

[eldaec]

There are competitors taht do that. They are orders of magnitude less popular - for obvious reasons.

Thus my issue. I see many people in politics forums scream about consumer protections, yet for some reason Kickstarter gets a pass.

As far as I know, in all major jurisdictions a Kickstarter reward has the same protections as any other online pre-order made before a final product actually exists.

Pay with a credit card and AFAIK your card provider would be jointly liable for total non-delivery (at least in the UK). Kickstarter conditions also say in that case the creator (and therefore the credit card issuer) is responsible for refunds.

What isn't refundable is not-quite-promises of particular features or timeliness.  But this is exactly the same as pre-ordering any product through any channel before the final product exists.

Godus exists, the problem is that it is shit.

UK law also offers a 14 day statutory cooling off period for all remote sales. Can't think of any reason Kickstarter rewards would be exempt - would be interesting to find out if anyone has successfully used that right. Most user agreements for services like steam include clauses saying that doesn't apply to them, but the law explicitly overrides these sorts of clauses and the courts consistently side with the consumer.

Of course, if you don't buy with a credit card, and the seller no longer exists or has no money then this doesn't help. But again, the same applies to all presales.

[Paelos]

I'm pro consumer protection, but KS is what it is. Don't like it, don't use it. But don't bitch if you don't do your homework and get burned, it's not Amazon.

So what's the difference between KS and a predatory lender? Or any company that doesn't disclose details?

I don't use Quicken Loans, but I know they are garbage, and they got hammered about it in a case in 2011 for over $3M in damages. KS is profiting from lies and broken promises.

[Tebonas]

The better analogy would be likening KS to a website that gets its cut by pairing off lenders with people who need money, some of which are predatory lenders.

For me thats like blaming Craigslist for their classifieds, but maybe I am just naive.

[eldaec]

I had a quick look through the KS terms this morning. The one thing they are clear on is that backing is a contract (their term) between creator and backer and that all they do is publish offers and process orders. Craigslist is exactly what they are shooting for.

Can't see anywhere they state that transactions don't represent a sale (and if they did I doubt it would matter) and can't see any use of ridiculous terms like "investment". They do say creators have an obligation to deliver rewards, but also that they are not going to manage complaints because the contract us between backer and creator.

[eldaec]

But on a happier note, "backed" this on a whim as one can never have enough Victorian stage magician themed worker placement games...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/438141406/trickerion-legends-of-illusion

Terrible name, but awesome looking board.

[Jeff Kelly]

That's what I meant in a previous post.

Kickstarter claims it is a portal where entrepreneurs can find patrons that help them fund interesting projects that otherwise wouldn't happen. Kickstarter is only providing a service that helps to connect people interested in doing a project with potential 'investors' and it gets a certain cut for providing that service. On the other hand Kickstarter claims that backers are not investors and have no claim to the profits or shares of the company of the party doing the Kickstarter.

Legally speaking this is not true in most jurisdictions. In most jurisdictions - even in the US I believe - if push came to shove it would need to be treated like a normal purchase. In the UK it is already handled that way, in Germany it would almost certainly need to be handled that way and I guess in many more jurisdictions it's the same.

That's because the platform targets consumers, so normal consumer protections apply. They atrget consumers so normal civil contractual law applies. Even if it wanted to, KS can't even legally treat them as investors because they don't 'invest', backers don't assume any risks involved with running the business advertising on kickstarter, there is no revenue share and so forth. They pledge a certain amount and they are promised to get a finmished product. All profits and assumed risks stay with the company.

I can't imagine any circumstance where a court wouldn't treat this as a normal act of sale that is governed by whatever civil code you have.

The only real question is who has to assume liability for failed projects. Kickstarters terms say that the company advertising its project on KS assumes any and all liability. That's the Pirate Bay (or Craigslist) defense and not necessarily true in all jurisdictions.

[Malakili]

The international nature matters quite a bit.  The US has a very different attitude towards this sort of thing than a lot of other countries.

[eldaec]

Depends on the specifics, but in the simple case of nondelivery of a product ordered using a credit card, the bank remains liable as far as I can see.

Beyond credit card regulation, I still can't see why it wouldn't be viewed exactly like any other cross border order. I keep reading people on random forums say a KS 'is not a preorder' but really don't know where on Kickstarter people get that from.

I do agree that consumer protections are in practice harder to claim for any order made across international borders, but that isn't unique to Kickstarter.

[Sky]

My spidey sense says 6-8M range.

Almost 8.8, I'm getting rusty!

The extra full deck and case are nice enhancements, imo. Feel better about the 20 on it. Plus my girl will love it, which is priceless.

[lamaros]

I hope the oatmeal guy had a good arrangement, or is happy throwing away several million to his friends.

[Fabricated]

Kinda interested in this but ehhh:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/43328422/this-is-the-police?ref=nav_search

Duke Nukem guy does the voiceover for a game about a retiring police chief finally giving up on being the one "good cop" and trying to make as much money under the table as possible before he retires.

[Viin]

Pebble is at it again with a color e-paper watch:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-time-awesome-smartwatch-no-compromises

Ran out of early bird units while I was distracted for 10 minutes. Drat!

[Baldrake]

I thought, no way do these Pebble guys have a chance competing with the Apple Watch and Android Wear... but while watching their video, they were well on their way to $5 million, or 10x their goal. Wow.

[Goreschach]

[Quinton]

I thought, no way do these Pebble guys have a chance competing with the Apple Watch and Android Wear... but while watching their video, they were well on their way to $5 million, or 10x their goal. Wow.

Volume-wise they are pretty small potatoes (tens of thousands of units), but it is really cool that kickstarter helps makes it possible for them to raise the money they need to do a factory run and deliver hardware to folks at a reasonable price.  I like that they're focuses on very lightweight, low power MCU based designs aiming for a week of battery life rather than taking the Google and Apple "stick a smartphone platform and OS in a watch" approach which thus far has not yielded great battery life (though Apple has not shipped yet, so perhaps they'll pull off something impressive).

[Gimfain]

Larian Studio, the developer behind kickstarted game Divinity: Original Sin spoke on GDC on the effect that kickstarter had on them. The game cost €4.5M to create, they raised almost €1M on kickstarter, and the rest came from a mixed group of investors and other royalties. While kickstarter certainly helped, the biggest difference is how the company embraced the power of being independent from publishers to release a better product.
Gamasutra article

[Baldrake]

Yeah, and so bringing this back to the Godus thread, game developers are using Kickstarter to raise part of their development budget, hoping that the "buzz" will help them raise the rest from investors. Really not a good deal for backers, since they are pre-ordering a game that hasn't even been funded let alone developed.

[Sky]

Larian Studio, the developer behind kickstarted game Divinity: Original Sin spoke on GDC on the effect that kickstarter had on them. The game cost €4.5M to create, they raised almost €1M on kickstarter, and the rest came from a mixed group of investors and other royalties. While kickstarter certainly helped, the biggest difference is how the company embraced the power of being independent from publishers to release a better product.
Gamasutra article

They were transparent about this during the campaign. They talked about how publisher pressures had affected the design of the earlier Divinity games and using KS as a lever to release a proper Divinity game. Though I've (still!) yet to play the game, I backed because I liked the original DD and D2 so much and wanted to back their purer vision here. I truly hope this is how these niche games find a way to their audiences for a while.

[Ard]

They were also pretty clear about the fact that they had a large chunk of the game already finished as well.  It wasn't being kickstarted from nothing like a lot of these are.

[MahrinSkel]

A tech or 'vertical slice' playable demo is the worst time to try and get funding from any traditional source. You have no bargaining strength, nothing really to sell, and odds are good that your expenditures rate is already pretty high. KS has been a very good way for some projects to cross that 'valley of death' without giving up so much they were basically working for free.

--Dave

[Lantyssa]

Concise Guide to Kickstarter:

[Xuri]

It's not Kickstarter, but...

Con Man (indiegogo.com) - "A new comedy from Alan Tudyk and Nathan Fillion produced by YOU!"

I'm mildly interested. They've raised $1,158,543 of a $425,000 goal so far...in 2 days.

[Teleku]

Sweet sweet Firefly fan money.

[MahrinSkel]

I think they're going to need bigger stretch goals. At this rate they'll have to either shut it down by tomorrow, or wind up with 10+ times as much as they had plans for using.

--Dave