Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread [Spoiler tag free, beware]

[Morat20]

I just made it a point to hit my apartment everytime I hit the Citadel, wander the Strip, and check  my messages. The "invite up" thing was on the comm terminal (where the Squad Videos are in your quarters).

Liara plays piano. :)

[Stormwaltz]

Liara plays piano. :)

And she's playing Vigil's Theme from ME1.

[Nayr]

Liara plays piano. :)

And she's playing Vigil's Theme from ME1.

Strange that I never noticed it was the same as the ME1 Title screen music because of the different instrument.

In story, Liara says a friend taught the song to her on an expedition(they got trapped in a ruin because of a storm and she taught it to her to pass the time.) Not sure if that's some kind of inside joke/reference to something behind the scenes.

[Venkman]

I knew that sounded familiar, but I had no idea from where. I played ME2 and the first DLC and then played ME1 for the first time, and then the other ME2 DLC before ME3 and that DLC. My memory is all effed up

[Morat20]

Drunk Tali is awesome. As is Drunk Javik.

Overheard a coversation on the Silversun strip between a woman and a vorcha. Complaining about Vanguards

Woman: "So he picks up the backpack, but his shields are down? So what's he do. CHARGES"
 Vorcha: "He drops the backpack!"
Woman: "Right? Don't pick it up if you're gonna cloak or charge".

Woman: "And don't even get me started on uploading"
Vorcha: "He charges! Upload slow! Bad!"
Woman: "Right?"

edited to add: Wow, pretty much all the conversations in the Casino are multiplayer based. Listening to Asari bitch about human adepts and vanguards is funny. Especially the bitch about "charging through walls" -- apparently that makes you sterile. :)

[Sjofn]

Woman: "And don't even get me started on uploading"
Vorcha: "He charges! Upload slow! Bad!"
Woman: "Right?"

That one was my favorite, because it is probably the most likely thing to make me go RARGH Y U DO

[Morat20]

Hey, I try to know my role. :) I've been playing characters with recon mines lately, so it's "hide in a corner and shoot recon mines". (Which is fun. Also, aim for the armored elites).

When I play a volus, on uploads and escorts it's "hide in the middle invisible and spam shield recharge". Not that anyone THANKS me or seems to notice "Hey, I seem to have full shields all the time, like FUCKING MAGIC".

OTOH, they always rez me when I die, so maybe they do care. :)

[Nayr]

Saw an interview with Drew Karpyshyn on Kotaku. http://kotaku.com/where-the-first-mass-effect-failed-and-succeeded-acc-471812201

Apparently the Rachni decision in ME1 was supposed to have a profound impact on the future games, but got diminished because people responded more to the Geth.

Wonder if Stormwaltz would care to elaborate on this. I'd like to know if they had an idea of what would have happened if the original idea had stayed and the Geth had been pushed aside. Would the rachni's survival have critical to the salvation of the galaxy(we already know what the original ending was going to be, but not how we would have gotten there,) or would it have come back to bite us in the ass?

In the ME3 we got, sparing the Queen was the right decision because her workers prove to be excellent workers on the Crucible and bring a 100 point War Asset to the table. Wheras if you sacrificed the queen, the Reaper create an unstable clone of the queen from Rachni DNA which tricks Shepard and attacks the Crucible site if you choose to recruit her.

[tmp]

In the ME3 we got, sparing the Queen was the right decision because her workers prove to be excellent workers on the Crucible and bring a 100 point War Asset to the table. Wheras if you sacrificed the queen, the Reaper create an unstable clone of the queen from Rachni DNA which tricks Shepard and attacks the Crucible site if you choose to recruit her.

Incidentally, the resolution for these felt pretty "ughh" to me. Just because I may feel inclined not to kill the rachni on the spot for a change --because unlike in ME1 at this point you know that it's a do or die fight again Squids from Outer Space and every possible ally can make a difference-- doesn't mean such potential but not proven allies should be then immediately placed in the middle of your most sensitive war effort projects. And if you're going to do that without asking for any input from me, it only creates a frustrating "ohgod i'm surrounded by morons" moment, instead of perhaps intended "gee don't you feel guilty now about your bad decision".

[Jeff Kelly]

I never really liked the setup in ME 1 either.

Before the events on Noveria and Virmire you get told time and time again about the dire threat the Rachni posed to the Galaxy before their extinction and that it basically took centuries and the Krogan to drive them to extinction. Also that the solution to the Rachni became another problem probably even more dire than the Rachni.

So you tell me that the last time Rachni were let loose on the Galaxy it took all of the council races plus 'uplifted' Krogan to defeat them, you have just let me wade through hundreds of rabid Rachni warriors to get to Matriarch Benezia and now you expect me to let the Queen live just because she said she'd be good this time? I don't think so.

I also have no problem with shooting my Krogan party member in the face if he wants to support the curing of the genophage.

In both cases the story never gives a really compelling reason for basically putting the entire galaxy on the line over a "hunch". For all Shepard knows at that time he's letting loose threats that last time took the concerted effort of the whole Galaxy plus hundreds of years to stop.

Even more frustratingly it's also exactly what happens in 3. You free the Queen and she get's enslaved by the Reapers again.

If people weren't signalled that both helping the Krogan with the Genophage and freeing the Rachni queen were 'good' choices (by giving them paragon points) I think that a lot less players would have chosen to do that because after all the game tells you it seems such a bad idea to do that.

To add insult to injury the Council will tell you off no matter how you choose. If you free the Rachni they scold you for unleashing the Rachni threat on the Galaxy, if you kill her they accuse you of genocide.

[TNG3]

What makes it worse in ME1 is that you're forced to either free the Rachni Queen or kill it right then and there, when there is nothing preventing Shepard from just walking away, or calling the Council, or whatever.

[Merusk]

Because Shepherd is THE DECIDER!

[Ingmar]

Meh, that's really not a problem. Game stories can't be infinite in scope so you have to choke it down to decision points somewhere, and a guy who passes the buck at every opportunity is not real high on the list of interesting protagonists.

[Stormwaltz]

Apparently the Rachni decision in ME1 was supposed to have a profound impact on the future games, but got diminished because people responded more to the Geth.

Sounds like a decision made after I left. We did want to bring back the rachni in 3 as part of a coalition. Casey had the idea of flipping the first game on its head, with Shepard leading an alliance of geth, rachni, and krogan - all the bad guys from ME1 - against the Reapers. And if your Shep is Renegade, s/he even looks all 'borged out like Saren...

In both cases the story never gives a really compelling reason for basically putting the entire galaxy on the line over a "hunch". For all Shepard knows at that time he's letting loose threats that last time took the concerted effort of the whole Galaxy plus hundreds of years to stop.

That is a perfectly valid, logical, reasonable, and safe choice, Chief Williams. You caution is commendable in light of the known facts.

If people weren't signalled that both helping the Krogan with the Genophage and freeing the Rachni queen were 'good' choices (by giving them paragon points) I think that a lot less players would have chosen to do that because after all the game tells you it seems such a bad idea to do that.

In the case of Noveria, it reflects my personal definition of "good." "Good" is doing something for no obvious or immediate gain, or doing something you think is morally correct when there's a genuine risk of it blowing back. It's doing right when the safest course is to cast morality aside and judge with clear-eyed Machiavellian practicality. The renegade choice here is the safe, rational "cut-through-the-bull" option.

To add insult to injury the Council will tell you off no matter how you choose.

That's not about whether they might think the choice was correct or not, that's about the Council disliking Shepard and finding reasons to condemn him/her for making important decisions without consulting them first. Like most politicians, they flip-flop on issues, but always get grumpy when they feel they're precious authori-tay is being disrespected.

Or at least that was my take on them. I don't much like career politicians.

[Goreschach]

In the case of Noveria, it reflects my personal definition of "good." "Good" is doing something for no obvious or immediate gain, or doing something you think is morally correct when there's a genuine risk of it blowing back. It's doing right when the safest course is to cast morality aside and judge with clear-eyed Machiavellian practicality. The renegade choice here is the safe, rational "cut-through-the-bull" option.

Exactly what parallel world did you grow up on where the term renegade describes someone safe, rational, and practical?  

[Sjofn]

Hey, I try to know my role. :) I've been playing characters with recon mines lately, so it's "hide in a corner and shoot recon mines". (Which is fun. Also, aim for the armored elites).

When I play a volus, on uploads and escorts it's "hide in the middle invisible and spam shield recharge". Not that anyone THANKS me or seems to notice "Hey, I seem to have full shields all the time, like FUCKING MAGIC".

OTOH, they always rez me when I die, so maybe they do care. :)

I was playing a vorcha one night, and I had a volus buddy who followed me everywhere. Vorcha sentinel (I think?) + volus whateverhewas = loooooooool

It was so fun I actually broke my usual radio silence and told him he was awesome when I logged out for the night (we were besties the entire evening).


edit: By the way, the Council bitching you out no matter what you choose with regard to the rachni certainly came across to me as "this fuckin' Council, am i rite?" rather than anything else. I also hate when people call paragon the "good" pick and renegade the "evil" pick. While I wouldn't call exterminating the rachni once and for all "good," it isn't mustache twirling cut-and-dry evil to do. It's morally questionable, sure, but it's also pragmatic and more sensible than the other choice. And I say that as someone who never picked it, because my Shepards were a bunch of hippies. I wouldn't call their decision (let the rachni go off on their own with just a promise to behave for reassurance) good either.

[Morat20]

Oh yeah, volus played right? You stick next to a Krogan or someone with a flamethrower. Some meat tank with a big gun. And you spam shield boost and invisibility and toss decoys/drones or mines. Your job is to keep him  up and hide alot. (FYI: If your Volus doesn't have 200% power recharge, it's probably wrong. )

Supposedly that bubble-melee thing works pretty well at certain points, but I wasn't ever that confidant with it. Volus die really, really quick.

[Stormwaltz]

Exactly what parallel world did you grow up on where the term renegade describes someone safe, rational, and practical?  

Me am Bizzarowaltz. The safe, rational, practical way to handle North Korea would be to preemptively nuke them before they can shit up anyone else's country with their artillery, missiles, ground troops, whatever. Is that moral, or likely to be popular? Not so much.

The Renegade path - though it often got shorthanded go "snark" or "dick" - is officially defined as the path of Jack Bauer (and Paragon as Captain Kirk, who will always Take A Third Option when presented with a no-win scenario). The Renegade does hard things because he feels there's no other choice. That model is of questionable validity, though. The writers pointed out internally that Jack Bauer honestly does have no choice, while we always give the player the choice - and since neither choice can ultimately fail, Renegade vs. Paragon, even when written "correctly," is still mostly about choosing whether or not to be a dick.

[Ratman_tf]

Exactly what parallel world did you grow up on where the term renegade describes someone safe, rational, and practical?  

Me am Bizzarowaltz. The safe, rational, practical way to handle North Korea would be to preemptively nuke them before they can shit up anyone else's country with their artillery, missiles, ground troops, whatever. Is that moral, or likely to be popular? Not so much.

The Renegade path - though it often got shorthanded go "snark" or "dick" - is officially defined as the path of Jack Bauer (and Paragon as Captain Kirk, who will always Take A Third Option when presented with a no-win scenario). The Renegade does hard things because he feels there's no other choice. That model is of questionable validity, though. The writers pointed out internally that Jack Bauer honestly does have no choice, while we always give the player the choice - and since neither choice can ultimately fail, Renegade vs. Paragon, even when written "correctly," is still mostly about choosing whether or not to be a dick.

That's actually a little disappointing. One of the reasons I rather liked the Rachni queen decision is that there does not seem to be a right decision, morally or practically.
Let her go and she might cut loose with a civiliation ending swarm of Rachni in the future.
Gas her and you're ending the existence of an intelligent race out of fear.

The choice made says more about the player character than a choice with a clear cut correct decision, and/or one with practical benefits. (Gain Rachni advantage, +1 to Foo!)
Not to put words in your mouth, and I hope I'm just misreading you, it sounds like you're saying that Renegade may not be a "wrong" choice, but it is a "bad" one.

[Ingmar]

For Stormwaltz's or my politics, yeah, it is the bad choice - but the Renegade shares more than the letter R with Republican, I think. There are tons of Americans at least who would view Renegade Shepard's choices - anti-"UN", Earth-first-patriotic, tough on crime/terrorism/whatever, etc. - as absolutely not "bad".

[Fabricated]

I always considered Renegade to be the "ain't nobody got time for that!" response to stuff. Do I try to smoothtalk this merc into giving me info while subtly flashing my gigantic armory of weapons and noting my two deadly looking teammates?

Or do I just not have time for this fucking shit and dangle him off a skyscraper since that'll work just as well? Then throw him off anyway because fuck mercs?

[kaid]

Drunk Tali is awesome. As is Drunk Javik.

Overheard a coversation on the Silversun strip between a woman and a vorcha. Complaining about Vanguards

Woman: "So he picks up the backpack, but his shields are down? So what's he do. CHARGES"
 Vorcha: "He drops the backpack!"
Woman: "Right? Don't pick it up if you're gonna cloak or charge".

Woman: "And don't even get me started on uploading"
Vorcha: "He charges! Upload slow! Bad!"
Woman: "Right?"

edited to add: Wow, pretty much all the conversations in the Casino are multiplayer based. Listening to Asari bitch about human adepts and vanguards is funny. Especially the bitch about "charging through walls" -- apparently that makes you sterile. :)

Hehe yes pretty much every overheard conversation there is related to multiplayer and most of it is pretty pointed too and most are things I have probably said myself.

[Nayr]

Apparently the Rachni decision in ME1 was supposed to have a profound impact on the future games, but got diminished because people responded more to the Geth.

Sounds like a decision made after I left. We did want to bring back the rachni in 3 as part of a coalition. Casey had the idea of flipping the first game on its head, with Shepard leading an alliance of geth, rachni, and krogan - all the bad guys from ME1 - against the Reapers. And if your Shep is Renegade, s/he even looks all 'borged out like Saren...

In the Kotaku article, Karpyshyn made it sound like a pre-ME2 decision. People liked the Geth more in ME1, so the Rachni were shelved to make room for Legion and explore the Geth more. Or at least that's how it sounded from my perspective.

And in ME3, you more or less have that idea of Casey Hudson's. Shepard unites everyone against the Reapers, provided the correct decisions are made.

To give turian support to Shepard, the Primarch Adrian Victus wants Shepard to get Krogan support for Palaven. But the Krogan leader, either Wrex or Wreav depending on the ME1 choice, wont agree to an alliance unless the genophage is cured(that's where Maelon's research from ME2 factor's in). The Salarian Dalatrass doesn't like that and tries to cut a deal with Shepard, he sabotages the cure and lies to the Krogan, or else the Salarians wont give their support. So the choice is to cure the genophage and trust the krogans by forsaking the Salarians, or sabotage the cure(which requires murdering Mordin unless Wrex is dead and you destroyed Maelon's data) and damning the Krogan to extinction. Also if Wrex is alive and you sabotage, he finds out and tries to kill Shepard and ends up being killed, but not before sticking it to him by withdrawing the Krogan armies from Palaven.

For the Quarians and the Geth. You have to free the Geth from Reaper control to save the Quarian fleet from being destroyed(the idiots tried to take back their homeworld) and it comes down to a choice between sides. The side quests of the arc give new perspectives on the issues; such as the fact that the warmongering and desire to take back Rannoch is only within the quarian military(the civilian fleets led by Admiral Korris didn't want the war and were pretty happy as they were). Not to mention that during the morning war, the quarian military imposed martial law on their own people for trying to protect the geth from them(a lot of quarians were even killed defending them,) and over the 300 years, the stories changed to vilify the geth. So it makes both choices difficult to make, but if you did the right things in ME2 and during the arc, you can Charm/Intimidate a truce between them and get both armies.

The Asari, well they hold back and shore up their defenses around Thessia because they believe Shepard's alliance wouldn't work(too much bad blood) and the Crucible was too much of a gamble. Then the Reapers hit them hard and they have a change of heart. But it's too late and Thessia falls.

But the other races, the Rachni, Batarians, Elcor, Hanar & Drell, and Aria + the three merc groups from ME2, they're all trimmed down to single missions and give smaller assets.

That's not about whether they might think the choice was correct or not, that's about the Council disliking Shepard and finding reasons to condemn him/her for making important decisions without consulting them first. Like most politicians, they flip-flop on issues, but always get grumpy when they feel they're precious authori-tay is being disrespected.

Or at least that was my take on them. I don't much like career politicians.

And that's why I hate politicians. There all a bunch of assholes.(love hanging up on the council in ME1, then telling them to shove it in ME2)

[TNG3]

Apparently the Rachni decision in ME1 was supposed to have a profound impact on the future games, but got diminished because people responded more to the Geth.

Sounds like a decision made after I left. We did want to bring back the rachni in 3 as part of a coalition. Casey had the idea of flipping the first game on its head, with Shepard leading an alliance of geth, rachni, and krogan - all the bad guys from ME1 - against the Reapers. And if your Shep is Renegade, s/he even looks all 'borged out like Saren...

Speaking of which, there's something I've been wondering about. Did you guys have any plans for how the Reapers would be defeated? Was Shepard's coalition going to be strong enough to beat the Reapers in conventional warfare? Because the superweapon that was introduced in ME3 (the Crucible) seemed to kind of come out of nowhere.

[Morat20]

It might have been better to have done it as finding the Protheans -- maybe with Javik's help if you were gonna use an actual prothean -- having experimental weapons research that wasn't based on the Relays and Citadel, or could bypass kinetic barriers or maybe just fucked up the weird cyborg-like Reapers. Basically a new type of weapon that the Protheans weren't able to get working, because they ran out of time.

Kind of a call-back to Ilos, but you could divide the game into three arcs -- searching for the lost Prothean lab using clues from Mars and Javik, gathering resources and researchers to finish and integrate the designs and start equipping ships, and arc three being taking the fight to the Reapers.

No super-weapons -- just a fighting chance. Even have Cerberus still running around knee-capping you (no Kai Leng please) trying to keep the weapons for Humanity only (which makes a fucking load more sense from Ceberus' perspective, since if humanity had good anti-Reaper guns then they'd be able to steamroll the rest of the galaxy).

It beats a giant floating wand that casts "Dispel Reaper".

[Nayr]

Apparently the Rachni decision in ME1 was supposed to have a profound impact on the future games, but got diminished because people responded more to the Geth.

Sounds like a decision made after I left. We did want to bring back the rachni in 3 as part of a coalition. Casey had the idea of flipping the first game on its head, with Shepard leading an alliance of geth, rachni, and krogan - all the bad guys from ME1 - against the Reapers. And if your Shep is Renegade, s/he even looks all 'borged out like Saren...

Speaking of which, there's something I've been wondering about. Did you guys have any plans for how the Reapers would be defeated? Was Shepard's coalition going to be strong enough to beat the Reapers in conventional warfare? Because the superweapon that was introduced in ME3 (the Crucible) seemed to kind of come out of nowhere.

Incorrect. There were implications about it in Lair of the Shadow Broker.

Remember: Liara's dialogue about how the Shadow Broker was looking into the Protheans and seemed to think they had "other plans"

In ME3 it was stated that the Shadow Broker's resources were what led her to Mars, where she found the Crucible blueprints.

[Ingmar]

Them mentioning it in a DLC that was created while ME3 was already underway hardly gets to count as decent foreshadowing, sorry.

[Nayr]

Them mentioning it in a DLC that was created while ME3 was already underway hardly gets to count as decent foreshadowing, sorry.

Except that there was a substantial amount of time between the release of Shadow Broker and ME3.

Lair of the Shadow Broker - July 22nd, 2010

ME3 - March 6th, 2012

I'd say that's plenty of time for it to be decent forshadowing. Especially since ME3 was likely in very early dev at that point in time. And players were still powering their way through countless ME2 playthroughs at that time, not prepping saves for import.

[Sjofn]

Even so, it's so vague that it could've just as easily gone in the direction Morat described.

[Venkman]

All depends on whether you really want to know the exact details of the specific game in which Han Solo won the Millenium Falcon from Lando Calrissian.

There's knowing the story and there's knowing the story

[Nayr]

Exactly what parallel world did you grow up on where the term renegade describes someone safe, rational, and practical?  

Me am Bizzarowaltz. The safe, rational, practical way to handle North Korea would be to preemptively nuke them before they can shit up anyone else's country with their artillery, missiles, ground troops, whatever. Is that moral, or likely to be popular? Not so much.

The Renegade path - though it often got shorthanded go "snark" or "dick" - is officially defined as the path of Jack Bauer (and Paragon as Captain Kirk, who will always Take A Third Option when presented with a no-win scenario). The Renegade does hard things because he feels there's no other choice. That model is of questionable validity, though. The writers pointed out internally that Jack Bauer honestly does have no choice, while we always give the player the choice - and since neither choice can ultimately fail, Renegade vs. Paragon, even when written "correctly," is still mostly about choosing whether or not to be a dick.

Well, the Renegade choices can be seen as playing it safe(When in doubt, take it out :p ) but when in things like conversation is just talking to people, what he says does usually come off as rude, curt, or even offensive. One such example being in Jacob's loyalty mission. When Ronald is explaining himself, the Renegade Shep basically implies he'd enjoy being in the same circumstance when he says that it'd be a "hell of a vacation".

In Mass Effect 3, they seemed to have switched things up a bit. Renegade options actually can be appealing even to pro-paragons like me. Like when Han'Gerrel tries to shoot down a Geth dreadnought with Shep and Tali onboard, Shepard's renegade options have him scold Gerrel for disobedience(they were supposed to retreat and get the fleet to a mass relay and away from the Reaper Controlled Geth) and can even punch him and kick him off of the Normandy. And there's the awesome interrupt with Kai Leng where Shepard spins around and breaks his sword, then shanks him with the omni-blade(the stabbing happens either way.) And one on the Citadel where Shepard can choose to pal around with other marines to show them he's still one of the boys by buying them drinks and whatnot.

[Sjofn]

Renegade interrupts have always been tempting, though? I mean shit, even my most paragony of paragons takes the one versus the monologuing krogan.

Also nothing is awesome when Kai Leng is involved. It is very slightly satisfying to reclaim the Power of Cutscenes back from him with that interrupt, but ... it is not awesome. Because Kai Leng exists and ruins everything he's in. He is the Corso Riggs of the Mass Effect series.

Okay, he's not quite as bad, because at least Kai Leng doesn't try to get into my pants.

[Nayr]

Renegade interrupts have always been tempting, though? I mean shit, even my most paragony of paragons takes the one versus the monologuing krogan.

Also nothing is awesome when Kai Leng is involved. It is very slightly satisfying to reclaim the Power of Cutscenes back from him with that interrupt, but ... it is not awesome. Because Kai Leng exists and ruins everything he's in. He is the Corso Riggs of the Mass Effect series.

Okay, he's not quite as bad, because at least Kai Leng doesn't try to get into my pants.

True, but that mostly just saves you having to kill him the hard way.

Ethically speaking though, that was a grisly way to kill him just for being understandably outraged about what the Krogan have faced.

[Lantyssa]

Yes, it's much worse than shooting him repeatedly.

[Nayr]

Yes, it's much worse than shooting him repeatedly.

Well I prefer not to waste my clips on him. The other Krogan and Vorcha are enough and there are few if no reloads laying around that spot.