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Author Topic: Crusader Kings II  (Read 41973 times)
Modern Angel
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Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 03:10:12 PM

I just had my Irish empire (kingdoms of Ireland and Scotland) dissolve. My nefarious son killed my eldest son, leaving my 50 year old ass to die and pass the titles on to my infant grandson. Things immediately went to shit. I very quickly granted the Scottish kingship to said nefarious son (now my nefarious uncle) and asked for help with the alliance, which he did. I'm going to have to go grab Ulster back at some point, because I couldn't keep everything together, but I'm still king of Ireland and mad as hell.

What a neat game.
Sjofn
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Reply #36 on: February 16, 2012, 08:13:04 PM

So how neckbeardy is this. Could a girl who got in a fight with the Guild 2 and eventually came out vaguely knowing how to play it handle Crusader Kings 2? Ingmar shrugs helplessly when I ask him. Because on the one hand, I eventually sort of figured out The Guild 2, and I loved all those Patrician III type games, on the other I have the temper of a four year old and my least favorite part of most games of this nature is the fighting.

To be fair to Ingmar, we have long since determined he's not very good at figuring out if I will like a game or not. He wasn't sure I'd like DA:O.  why so serious?

God Save the Horn Players
JWIV
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Reply #37 on: February 16, 2012, 08:46:54 PM

tmp
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Reply #38 on: February 16, 2012, 09:58:44 PM

So how neckbeardy is this. Could a girl who got in a fight with the Guild 2 and eventually came out vaguely knowing how to play it handle Crusader Kings 2?
It seems harder to get the idea about your situation than in Guild games, and it can include many more characters so it's harder to keep track on things that happen all around. On the other hand the focus on these characters and their relations is strong enough it may be able to outweight the drawbacks, hard to say.

Probably best to check the demo, it has a bunch of mini tutorials to guide around the UI and explain the basic concepts, if i'm not mistaken.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #39 on: February 16, 2012, 10:47:35 PM

I enjoyed the demo, but it didn't give me an idea of the potential scope of the game.

Also, warfare is an integral portion of the game, but it's pretty simple and I would say that it doesn't occupy the majority of my decisions or gameplay.  In fact, I would say that it has the simplist warfare component of any Paradox game, barring, perhaps, CK1, and I've played every game developed by Paradox since EU2.  The game doesn't have much of a "net" though; things go pear-shaped regularly, and entire kingdoms can collapse into a pile of feuding siblings at a moment's notice, ruining decades of scrupulous management. 

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Ingmar
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Reply #40 on: February 16, 2012, 11:31:31 PM

I really don't think they needed to put more little vassals inside the counties. And then have every single one of those have 10 different buildings to build.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
tmp
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Reply #41 on: February 16, 2012, 11:47:02 PM

I do like the concept, but there's lot of extra clicking around the UI because of this extra layer. Some sort of bigger window maybe with tree-based navigation through the infrastructure, that'd be handy.
Ingmar
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Reply #42 on: February 16, 2012, 11:49:07 PM

The biggest problem I have with it is it bloats your list of characters even more.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #43 on: February 17, 2012, 12:42:36 AM

I mostly ignore the barons/bishops.  They're there but I never play around with them.  They're all just potential stewards/marshals/etcs to me.  Also, if they have enough money they build those buildings by themselves.

I will say though, I was far more interested in my vassals in CK1 than I am in this one.  I think part of it is that they die rather often, but another part of it is the ui.  In CK1 vassals were right on top of the character viewer, and in this ui I have to click another tab to see them, and they're displayed in such a way that one has to scroll around to see them all.  I think that does take some of the character away from the game.  That said, I tend to spend that extra attention on family affairs, which I spent less time on, comparatively, in CK1, so it's a give and take.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Muffled
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Reply #44 on: February 21, 2012, 12:56:28 AM

I've put a few tens of hours into this game now, and the largest irritation I've found is that my vassals are complete rubbish at improving their holdings.  Over 150 years after game start not a single improvement of any description has been built in any castle while owned by these lazy bastards.  Yes, really, not one.  I haven't specifically checked their towns or bishoprics, but none of those are looking at all impressive either.  Am I doing something wrong, or is this just standard?

As the King of Castile, Leon, Aragon, and Portugal I've been at war more years than I've been at peace ( DRILLING AND MANLINESS), does that hurt development so badly?  My vassals all love me and I've opened up noble taxes, is this hurting them?  Any input would be wonderful.  The enormous difference in development between the Islamic duchies south of me and my own pathetic vassal levies is really starting to show, my personal counties just can't carry the kingdom forever.

tmp
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Reply #45 on: February 21, 2012, 01:12:16 AM

Out of interest how much personal gold do they have? I've noticed cities and churches upgrade over time, but castles seem to do that less frequently (which could be caused by getting like 2-3x less income to begin with, possibly compounded with having to spend on active levies if you have these raised)
Ruvaldt
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Reply #46 on: February 21, 2012, 01:14:14 AM

War does keep fief owners from upgrading because when you call up their levies they are the ones paying for them, and thus they'll have less money to upgrade their territories.  That goes for nobility, mayors and clergy alike.

As an Iberian though your nobility also face the problem of having very unprofitable territories until they've been converted to Christianity.  Really, until they turn Catholic, a lot of those Spanish territories do more harm than good.  So those years in which they aren't earning any significant income from taxes can put them back a ways in upgrades.  Due to that, and constant warfare, Spain actually has a lot going against it in terms of your vassals finding the money/time to upgrade facilities.  I often see Iberia lagging behind the rest of Europe, and that isn't necessarily inaccurate, historically.

Edit: Yeah, tmp, that's how I've seen it as well.  Barons have higher expenses and lower incomes so castles tend to upgrade much slower.  I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing though; it's kind of a neat repercussion of being bellicose that your economy develops at a slower rate due to higher expenses.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 01:19:12 AM by Ruvaldt »

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Khaldun
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Reply #47 on: February 21, 2012, 07:12:42 AM

I like this a lot, didn't play CK1. One thing I've struggled with so far is what I'm supposed to do if I get the alert that there's a title that I can press a de jure claim to--the county interface pops up when you click on the alert, but I don't see any way to press the claim in that interface or via diplomacy with the current holder of that county. It's not the same as when I manage to fabricate a claim to a territory via my chancellor.

I wish there was some way to see when another faction was trying to get a casus belli against me. I was playing Croatia. pretty much minding my own business besides eating up Serbia and marrying my kids to the Polish king's family, and the Holy Roman Emperor suddenly came after a province on behalf of one of his neighboring vassals. I assume that their chancellor was fabricating a claim to it, because all of the vassals in that province were pledged to me. But I'd had my spymaster there looking for plots--plot detection doesn't seem to cover a chancellor doing claim fabrication.
cironian
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Reply #48 on: February 21, 2012, 07:23:27 AM

I like this a lot, didn't play CK1. One thing I've struggled with so far is what I'm supposed to do if I get the alert that there's a title that I can press a de jure claim to--the county interface pops up when you click on the alert, but I don't see any way to press the claim in that interface or via diplomacy with the current holder of that county. It's not the same as when I manage to fabricate a claim to a territory via my chancellor.

Ducal de jure claims don't allow you to add the county to your demesne, but to vassalize that count. You can either directly ask the guy to become your vassal or force him to agree in a war. I don't think there is a way to do anything with the de jure claim if the holder of the county title is a duke or king.
Khaldun
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Reply #49 on: February 21, 2012, 09:22:18 AM

Ah, that's probably why I couldn't do anything the one time I got it so far: the holder was a duke.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #50 on: February 21, 2012, 10:45:27 AM

If the holder is a duke, you can declare war on his king, and demand that title in the war.  You can't declare war on lower vassals, you have to declare war on that vassal's lord.  If the duke was independent, however, you could declare war on him directly because he doesn't have a king.

Generally, de jure claims are used to get casus bellis in order to start a war with another Christian kingdom/country.  In fact, it's one of the easiest ways to grow your kingdom/duchy in christendom: get half of the counties that comprise a duchy --> usurp or create the ducal title --> get de jure claims on the rest of the duchy and go to war with the owners.  It makes Ireland pretty easy to conquer because three of the ducal titles are only two counties so if you get one you pretty much automatically get a claim on the other.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Bann
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Reply #51 on: February 21, 2012, 01:15:38 PM

So, what scenarios/people are you guys finding fun to play? As others have stated upthread, Any Irish county in the earliest timeframe is pretty cool. You are on an island with a bunch of counties similar to yourself. My only games that have gone anywhere have all been in Ireland. I've tried a bit up in Sweden or down in Spain, but have never gotten off the ground.

Who do you like? Why?
tmp
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Reply #52 on: February 21, 2012, 01:48:47 PM

I've picked duchy of Greater Poland in the early starting game -- it's in the interesting spot, with plenty of lands right north and east of you that you can expand into as part of long term plans. Then you have Denmark nearby that's easy to work your way into and take over in the long run. You can also try to take Poland itself rather than play nice with the king, or work on expansion to the east, bide your time against the Roman Empire to the west, or have fun around Norway. Or play with Hungary in the south... really, plenty options.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #53 on: February 21, 2012, 02:42:06 PM

Anything in Iberia is interesting, but it can be a challenge; especially once Mauritania really gets fired up.  Poland is a good game, especially if you're able to ally with Denmark and the HRE early, and then backstab them later.  Sicily was great in CK1, but it is a much greater challenge now.  I haven't played Hungary, but that'll be my next game; it looks like a lot of fun with early expansion opportunities into Pecheneg territory, and then later dominating the Balkans/challenging the HRE and Byzantium.

You also have the option of playing at a later start date than 1066.  Any start date, in fact.  Your starting options are amazingly varied once you take that into consideration.  Taking up Byzantium at a later date and trying to bring them back from the brink looks like it could be a ton of fun.  Also, starting in Naples/Sicily after Sicily has been brought into christendom could lead to a really good game; probably sometime just before the third crusade, around 1170 or so during William II's reign, the last real king of Sicily before it became a part of the HRE under Henry VI and Constance d'Hauteville.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Khaldun
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Reply #54 on: February 21, 2012, 04:02:44 PM

I'm trying Scotland now. I'm vying for a very tight dynastic alliance to France with the hope of making a big move on England later.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #55 on: February 21, 2012, 04:25:31 PM

In my Scotland game I have been an underhanded bastard who marries well and then assassinates with reckless abandon.  If I could rename my dynasty "Macbeth" I would.  I've ended up inheriting large portions of England (Somerset, Oxford, Essex and Lancashire) and from there it's been pretty easy to gobble the rest up. 

My current Scotch king, Roderick the Great, also had an illicit affair with his father's third wife, producing a bastard that is now the duke of Sicily.  Roderick also has a brother who married his late brother's wife after I assassinated him and their four daughters; he revolted shortly after and I like to think she had something to do with it, even though I'm sure that's not really the case.  I should've radicalthoned this, really.  I even have an advisor named named Fergal MacFergus.  Come on, that's comedy gold.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Muffled
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Reply #56 on: February 21, 2012, 08:02:25 PM

Thanks for the replies upthread, I didn't even realize that you could check how much gold your worthless slaves vassals were holding.  Ran some max sim speed tests, the constant high crown authority levies were definitely a killer for them.  Combine that with crappy counties and noble taxes and they were all pretty broke.

On the subject of good places to start, the King of France is actually pretty interesting in 1066.  His vassals are completely out of control, the Duke of Aquitane and William of Normandy (particularly if he loses the war for England) are far stronger than the crown initially.  Could be an interesting exercise in politics.  Spain was a great start for learning how to fight larger and more advanced forces to a stalemate, and how to kill your relatives to inherit their land.  Ohhhhh, I see.

Next up is going to be one of the dukes of the HRE, to see if I can break that monster up or take it over.
Mazakiel
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Reply #57 on: February 21, 2012, 09:05:53 PM

So, I picked up the game based on all the good stuff I was hearing, but now that I've gotten through the tutorial and face starting up a game....I feel a bit overwhelmed at it all once I look at the map.  I never played the first one.  Is there a good spot for someone who's learning the ropes to start? 
Llyse
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Reply #58 on: February 21, 2012, 11:16:45 PM

This thread is making me consider buying a full priced game even though I have no time to play it just to send a signal to Total War...

$40 eh...
Ruvaldt
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Reply #59 on: February 22, 2012, 12:36:29 AM

It seriously is good, but you also have to be able to make your own fun.  The ai often makes it easy on the player and it is the punitive nature of events that make the game suddenly challenging when you encounter civil wars, though the ai really does know when to take advantage of you when you're at your weakest.  Other than that you have to be able to set your own goals for success and strive for those in order to measure your achievements.

In my current Scotland game I didn't even start as Scotland, I started as Brittany, but my game was dull because I lacked a strong England to ally with and I saw Scotland getting something interesting going so...I saved the game, resigned, and then loaded and started playing as Scotland.  Not only are your choices amazingly diverse in terms of when to start your game, but once it is going you can take the reigns of any dynasty currently in play in your save.  It's like a medieval Europe simulator with a million permutations.

My main complaints so far: leaders tend to die or become incapacitated too often in combat, children don't die frequently enough (from natural causes), and the HRE/Byzantium/France are too stable.  In over 70 hours of play I've yet to crash at all, and I haven't encountered any game-breaking bugs.  Pretty amazing for a Paradox developed game.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
ffc
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Reply #60 on: February 22, 2012, 12:54:12 AM

So, I picked up the game based on all the good stuff I was hearing, but now that I've gotten through the tutorial and face starting up a game....I feel a bit overwhelmed at it all once I look at the map.  I never played the first one.  Is there a good spot for someone who's learning the ropes to start?  

My brain broke from the demo and this guy's videos are slowly picking up the pieces: 6 videos where he's explaining how he plays from the start of a game.

edit - I really liked this official release trailer where the narrator describes how everything can go wrong in a game but then you can turn it around (in discussing questionable action taken by a character believing he's possessed: "This will destroy your reputation of course...or rather it would do were you not already known to be under the devil's sway.") in addition to those king dudebro videos.  Hope I get smarter to play.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 01:02:48 AM by ffc »
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #61 on: February 22, 2012, 10:07:28 AM

So, I picked up the game based on all the good stuff I was hearing, but now that I've gotten through the tutorial and face starting up a game....I feel a bit overwhelmed at it all once I look at the map.  I never played the first one.  Is there a good spot for someone who's learning the ropes to start? 

Pick something small to start then just begin hacking away. You will probably mess up a lot and maybe even get crushed but it's better to look up stuff as you encounter it than try and figure it out before you unpause your 1st game, you will just be overwhelmed.
Khaldun
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Reply #62 on: February 22, 2012, 11:13:30 AM

Scotland won a war against Norway after a de jure opportunity opened up in Orkney. Then I got played by one of my five sons who tricked me into trying to imprison a loyal vassal. One small civil war later, I'd claimed that vassal's land for my own demense and given it to my first-born loyal son, who I suspect is getting a bit impatient for daddy dearest to kick the bucket. Phew! Time to relax.

OH SHIT ENGLAND JUST INVADED WITH 7000 troops. My nobles are surly, I'm low on funds and I'm in my fucking 70s. Where's William Wallace when we need him?

So far on three runs, I'd say the AI is actually pretty good at taking advantage of weakness.
brellium
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Reply #63 on: February 22, 2012, 11:04:03 PM

Scotland won a war against Norway after a de jure opportunity opened up in Orkney. Then I got played by one of my five sons who tricked me into trying to imprison a loyal vassal. One small civil war later, I'd claimed that vassal's land for my own demense and given it to my first-born loyal son, who I suspect is getting a bit impatient for daddy dearest to kick the bucket. Phew! Time to relax.

OH SHIT ENGLAND JUST INVADED WITH 7000 troops. My nobles are surly, I'm low on funds and I'm in my fucking 70s. Where's William Wallace when we need him?

So far on three runs, I'd say the AI is actually pretty good at taking advantage of weakness.
Maybe, if my nobles didn't revolt against me every 6 months. I've been using them to fill my coffers by holding them for ransom.

‎"One must see in every human being only that which is worthy of praise. When this is done, one can be a friend to the whole human race. If, however, we look at people from the standpoint of their faults, then being a friend to them is a formidable task."
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Megrim
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Reply #64 on: February 22, 2012, 11:26:57 PM

So this has multiplayer yeah? Has anyone tried it?

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proudft
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Reply #65 on: February 23, 2012, 02:40:00 AM

So I tried the demo, did most of the tutorials, and picked the lady ruler Matilda in northern Italy.

She has, like, no living relatives so I figure first thing to do is marry some semi-useful dude and get some kids.  I send a letter off to another Italian ruler over to the west a bit, he accepts, and bam, pregnant, and bam, out come some twin daughters.  The dynasty is underway, right?

Except... wait, they are of HIS dynasty not mine, so the warnings are still telling me when Matilda dies, the game is over.   Dammit!   So, uh, is there a way to change the kids' dynasty or is Matilda basically screwed?

« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 02:48:29 AM by proudft »
Yoru
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Reply #66 on: February 23, 2012, 03:31:36 AM

You're semi-boned. You could use a plot or assassination attempt to kill your husband, assassinate both kids and then re-marry someone else matrilineally.

Keeping an eye on the line of succession and judiciously using matrilineal marriages is super important. My main rule is to always try to marry off the first and second daughters matrilineally, unless I have an asston of sons. Daughters seem to live longer, so this is also insurance against the occasional brotherpocalypse, where 5 sons all start knocking each other off in a bid for the throne.
proudft
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Reply #67 on: February 23, 2012, 12:48:33 PM

Ah, I sort of read matrilineal marriage as 'keeps the dynasty of the person's mother' which now I see makes no sense.  Well, the demo doesn't let me save anyway so Matilda gets a fresh start regardless.   Which is good because someone totally invaded Corsica before I saw what was happening - which I am still not sure even belonged to Matilda but I had a vassal there under siege.  Maybe he was visiting?  

I am kinda having a hard time with the map - the first selection down after 'natural' view shows the empires, which is not so useful when Matilda is part of the HRE and everything around her is HRE gray, so I tried the 'direct vassals' view which seems to show MOST of her stuff in yellow, but also some other guys' stuff in yellow.  Maybe these other guys are underlings to her?  This is a pretty involved game.   Head scratch
Muffled
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Reply #68 on: February 23, 2012, 10:37:15 PM

It can be pretty difficult figuring out exactly where you stand in terms of vassal-lord relationships when you are part of a larger kingdom/empire.  Easiest way I've found to be completely certain is to go through the "vassals" list in your character page and just track down individually all of their holdings to build a mental image of what you own.  Another way is to raise your realm levies, anyone who is a vassal to you should pop out troops in their territory, which makes it nice and easy to see where they live.  You can immediately stand them all down again (assuming you don't have hostiles in your territory), costs you nothing.

For a quick overview, notice the dotted line borders around your contiguous territories when you're in terrain view.  Those only show up if you own the county capital, so it is possible to miss some holdings in the odd split county situations, but it gives you a good idea at least.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #69 on: February 23, 2012, 11:04:04 PM

The diplomatic map view works very well for managing your realm once you get used to it.  It's one of my most used map modes.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
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