SWTOR the MMORPG without the MM...

[Morfiend]

I just wanted to pop in and say that while this game is totally designed to let you play solo, I feel that you have a completely different, and in almost all cases more enjoyable experience if you group, or even duo.

I have a alt character that I only play duo with a friend of mine, and so far it has been the most fun I have had in this game. The combat, which starts to get slower around 20 or so, gets much faster, and more explosive feeling as you just mow through mobs, and the dialog gets more involved as the other player has input also.

My 2c.

[Sjofn]

I'm level 40 on a second character ( ) and I tend to agree, I had more fun duoing up with Ingmar than I have been solo (although I have been pretty entertained solo too, mind you, otherwise Jassan the trooper probably wouldn't be level 40). Something about the shared experience goes a long way with me.

[Zetor]

I've also found that dialogue is a lot of fun in a group (or even just duo)... it also keeps groupchat alive. During flashpoint cutscenes everyone in the group becomes a comedian. This may be compounded by the fact that I'm playing on a RP server.
(referring to Kilran) "Oh man, not the secret HANDS CLASPED BEHIND BACK technique! We're so dead"
(referring to Oteg) "We'll get your honey back, Master Pooh!"
There's also the tradition of making fun of hammy cutscene voice acting, which in my guild goes back to the Guild Wars days (if anyone remembers Rurik, Kung-fu Villain Togo, or the UNDEAD LICH, you'll know why).

Most of the dialogue for planet quests is really simplistic though. (accept quest gladly / accept quest grudgingly / refuse quest)

[Wolf]

I think a big part of the problem is that quest difficulty is all over the place. Some 2s I can solo without blinking an eye, boss and all. Some destroy me. Some 4s I can solo very slowly and carefully - one 4 on nar shadaa had pulls of 1 yellow with 3 silvers. I have a 4 at the moment on tatooine with pulls of 3 yellows, 2 silvers and 2 regular mobs . I have general/trade/pvp open in a separate window. Since I got the quest Saturday morning, there has not been a single pug for it while I have been on.

I also don't particularly like that I can't see the reward. Yeah, it's fun getting surprised. But if it's a blue and a commendation, I wouldn't bother someone to come boost me. If it's a piece of orange boots I or a comp will be wearing all the way to 50, well I'd bug someone caped to come help me out.

So, yeah, sign me up for LFD. Especially if you can queue for heroic quests.

[Ratman_tf]

I've also found that dialogue is a lot of fun in a group (or even just duo)... it also keeps groupchat alive. During flashpoint cutscenes everyone in the group becomes a comedian. This may be compounded by the fact that I'm playing on a RP server.
(referring to Kilran) "Oh man, not the secret HANDS CLASPED BEHIND BACK technique! We're so dead"
(referring to Oteg) "We'll get your honey back, Master Pooh!"
There's also the tradition of making fun of hammy cutscene voice acting, which in my guild goes back to the Guild Wars days (if anyone remembers Rurik, Kung-fu Villain Togo, or the UNDEAD LICH, you'll know why).

Most of the dialogue for planet quests is really simplistic though. (accept quest gladly / accept quest grudgingly / refuse quest)

"A little elaboration is required!"

My first experience with group convos was starting and ending a flashpoint. It was cool to see all our characters responding in turn. I imagine the novelty will wear off though.

[Ratman_tf]

Well for starters, when there's only 3 of your guildies on and you want to do something together, instead of going "whelp," you can actually do something. Random Q Chucklefuck is, nine times out of ten, a perfectly normal person, in my experience.

Secondly, if you DO have a full group, it sure is nice to just hit "queue for dungeon" and GO instead of all the traveling bullshit, all the deciding which instance to do, etc. I didn't realize how much I liked WoW's LFD for a full guild group until I did a flashpoint in SWTOR recently.

Stuff that can be addressed without using LFD. Make some dungeons that only require 2-4 people. Hell, make dungeons scale to number of characters.
The insta-travel to dungeons is valid. But not necessarily something that has to be tied to LFD.

I'm glad you don't encounter shitheads in your PUGs very often. I have done a few, but only with a couple of guildies or more. I like having at least a few groupmates that I know I can count on.

You're basically arguing that because you'll never use it, you don't want it in the game. Are you doing PUGs *now*? If you aren't, why would you care if they change how PUGs work to what the majority of players clearly want?

When LFD came out, it was much harder for me to get a guild group for a dungeon because everyone had already run it using a LFD pickup group. It's a bit selfish, I know, but LFD meant to me that I'd get to run fewer dungeons.

And note that I didn't say I never use it. I said I use it rarely.

[Kageru]

That's going to happen anyway. Once the population wave crest passes a leveling instance it quickly becomes difficult to find people to run it with regardless of whether an LFG system exists or not. However your chances of finding a group are improved by the size of the population you can draw from so an LFG system is a good thing.

Server community... hah. Server communities existed when leveling was slow, online games were a novelty and progress happened in a group (eg. EQ, FF). In a game as on rails and spoon-fed as SWTOR I doubt you'll find a meaningful server community amount players focused strongly on their progression goals. On top of which those who want it will look for it within the context of guilds.

[Xilren's Twin]

I was tooling around with a warrior alt yesterday and hadnt turned off General Chat yet and saw this exact same discussion was occuring there.  "Boy, everyone seems to be playing this as a single player game".  "No, the grouping stuff is great with increased xp and shared conversations" "People sure seem to hate on this game on the official forum" "Only idiots go to the forum" etc etc.

Of course, being general chat in an mmorpg, it devolved into name calling and general asshattery in about 30 seconds. 
General chat, dont you ever change.

[Ghambit]

Tbh, I've yet to fail at finding a group and I'm well behind the leveling curve... been taking it slow.  I do believe a lot of this has to do with many people already having decent leveled alts on my server.  Also, there's plenty to do while you search so it's not like you're sitting around twiddling your thumbs.

Speaking of Shien, it's full of friendlies.  Routinely I've gotten people to group with me and they've already run the instance a million times...  they just do it for the fun of it, errr after they get sick of me spamming gen. chat.   

[Wolf]

I've yet to fail at finding a group

after they get sick of me spamming gen. chat.

I see. 

[Rokal]

I just wanted to pop in and say that while this game is totally designed to let you play solo, I feel that you have a completely different, and in almost all cases more enjoyable experience if you group, or even duo.

I have a alt character that I only play duo with a friend of mine, and so far it has been the most fun I have had in this game. The combat, which starts to get slower around 20 or so, gets much faster, and more explosive feeling as you just mow through mobs, and the dialog gets more involved as the other player has input also.

I came here to post the same thought. Similar to DDO, the game doesn't feel 'massive' but the multiplayer part works really well. It's the first MMO I've played where it feels like playing with other players while leveling directly enhances the experience, rather than just allowing you to do harder content or move through the areas faster. Playing as a Bounty Hunter, I'm having a lot of fun following the Sith Inquisitor story along with my friend. The normal quest conversations are also much more entertaining when different classes get different responses and you and the other player(s) are randomly selected to answer the NPC after you make your dialogue choice. I didn't expect all of the quest conversations to allow multiple players input, just Flashpoints, and it really helps what might have otherwise been pretty boring quest dialogue.

The friend and I agreed on a couple days a week that we both could devote 2-3 hours to playing and it's been working out really well. As long as you actually stay dedicated to playing together instead of occasionally grouping up, I think you'll find that the experience is much better. It stops feeling like Space WoW and starts feeling like co-op KOTOR.

[Nebu]

Grouping is fun in this game.  I just wish that they'd pump up the healing ability of the Merc/Commando and Scoundrel/Op classes so that they'd be more in line with sorcerers.  Requiring a sorc healer for group encounters really creates a bottleneck for those without a strong guild and multiple dedicated healers.  Hell, having dual speccing would solve this as well.

[01101010]

I just wanted to pop in and say that while this game is totally designed to let you play solo, I feel that you have a completely different, and in almost all cases more enjoyable experience if you group, or even duo.

I have a alt character that I only play duo with a friend of mine, and so far it has been the most fun I have had in this game. The combat, which starts to get slower around 20 or so, gets much faster, and more explosive feeling as you just mow through mobs, and the dialog gets more involved as the other player has input also.

I came here to post the same thought. Similar to DDO, the game doesn't feel 'massive' but the multiplayer part works really well. It's the first MMO I've played where it feels like playing with other players while leveling directly enhances the experience, rather than just allowing you to do harder content or move through the areas faster. Playing as a Bounty Hunter, I'm having a lot of fun following the Sith Inquisitor story along with my friend. The normal quest conversations are also much more entertaining when different classes get different responses and you and the other player(s) are randomly selected to answer the NPC after you make your dialogue choice. I didn't expect all of the quest conversations to allow multiple players input, just Flashpoints, and it really helps what might have otherwise been pretty boring quest dialogue.

The friend and I agreed on a couple days a week that we both could devote 2-3 hours to playing and it's been working out really well. As long as you actually stay dedicated to playing together instead of occasionally grouping up, I think you'll find that the experience is much better. It stops feeling like Space WoW and starts feeling like co-op KOTOR.

Harkens back to set parties in FFXI. Of course, you did it there in order to grind through mobs for levels. Here, it works better with the story. However, it also pays to have a buddy system/set party in the game, if for nothing else, grinding social points. 

But I do agree... playing with at least one other person does make the game a lot more fun, as long as you know/sorta-know the other person. Random player #3476 you tried this with usually ends up in frustration. I keep thinking back to WoW adding in Dumass to the horde quests...that is the exact player you do not want to get stuck with, but seems to happen to me a lot in pugs.

[Wolf]

Grouping is fun in this game.  I just wish that they'd pump up the healing ability of the Merc/Commando and Scoundrel/Op classes so that they'd be more in line with sorcerers.  Requiring a sorc healer for group encounters really creates a bottleneck for those without a strong guild and multiple dedicated healers.  Hell, having dual speccing would solve this as well.

So it's broken in sorc's favor? I was talking to a guildie about this and we were wondering which way it'll go. There's a reason why monks are getting a mana bar on their healing spec in the pandawow.

[Nebu]

I don't know if I'd say broken so much as sorcs/sages have access to a larger power pool and their regen mechanic is better.  My hope is that the other two healers will come up to the ability of the sorc, not that sorcs will be nerfed. 

[Wolf]

it just doesn't work. Other way around is sorc's heals are not effective (due to the larger power pool and regen mechanic) and energy healers destroy her with throughput. You either have all energy or all mana healers, even with wow's energy mechanic, which is better suited to accomodate a healer. Or you break both, make healing irrelevent, and hence not fun.

[Fordel]

The Commando/BH healing issue isn't the power pool or the regen, it's the filler heal.

When you DPS or Tank as a Trooper/BH, the resource mechanic works because your basic attack isn't THAT far off your specials. You can afford to hit the basic once or twice between a string of specials to keep even, or even to recover after a burst/panic situation.

The Commando filler heal, is no where close to being able to keep parity like that. If you could handle a spike situation, then keep everyone even with your filler and regen, it would work. Right now, you are allowed to handle one spike situation every 2 minutes, otherwise you'll just fall behind and never catch up and bad things happen.

Or in other words, a Commando healer keeping himself in 4 pips isn't doing bonus healing, he's doing baseline healing.

[Wolf]

You're asking for more throughput on your free heal. That will make you perform much better than a sorc, since she doesn't have a free heal. Let's then give Sorcs a free heal, ok now they're even with energy classes, but her regen is basically lifetap, so to keep up with the always healing energy class and not run out of mana she has to spend globals on regaining mana. Now energy healers are outperforming her by a ton, since they don't have dead globals. Let's scrap that mechanic and just let her regen more mana when she's at higher mana. Good, she's an energy healer now and we have balanced healing classes and can design encounters accordingly.

Once again - There's a reason why the monk gets mana in his healing spec.

[01101010]

You're asking for more throughput on your free heal. That will make you perform much better than a sorc, since she doesn't have a free heal. Let's then give Sorcs a free heal, ok now they're even with energy classes, but her regen is basically lifetap, so to keep up with the always healing energy class and not run out of mana she has to spend globals on regaining mana. Now energy healers are outperforming her by a ton, since they don't have dead globals. Let's scrap that mechanic and just let her regen more mana when she's at higher mana. Good, she's an energy healer now and we have balanced healing classes and can design encounters accordingly.

Once again - There's a reason why the monk gets mana in his healing spec.

Basically, yes. When I ran my merc, I tried healing and the heals were restricted to major heat producing ones which worked fine for getting through a huge spike, but heat produced was significant. To drop it, I would shoot my friendly target with my free heal which gave me a lot of little green 25s on the target, but did fuck all to heal through flat incoming dmg. So in essence, I was behind on my heals with whole time. A small adjustment up on the free heal would not be out of the question since it is rather pointless. Better off, dropping a new can in and doing dmg with the base attack then try actually healing with it.

[Fordel]

The heal being free doesn't automagically make the spec the best healer Wolf.

[palmer_eldritch]

I'm playing the game with an old friend of mine who is a hard-core roleplayer. He has the general channel turned off and the only way he'll group with "random" people is by going to a canteena and seeing if anyone suitable is there. If so then he goes through the process of asking them, in character, whether they are available for hire or not, and negotiating rates.

Just thought I'd share that - feel free to steal our idea if you like!

[Wolf]

The heal being free doesn't automagically make the spec the best healer Wolf.

You're asking for your free heal to be able to go on it's own for any ammount of time, that makes your class better than the one without the free heal. There are ways to balance a mixed mana/energy healer system, but all of them lead to either healing being too powerful, hence irrelevent, hence unfun; or putting major restrictions on encounter design.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE healing on my trooper. It's an incredibly fun mechanic. That doesn't make it any less of a headache to balance.

[Valmorian]

I'm playing the game with an old friend of mine who is a hard-core roleplayer. He has the general channel turned off and the only way he'll group with "random" people is by going to a canteena and seeing if anyone suitable is there. If so then he goes through the process of asking them, in character, whether they are available for hire or not, and negotiating rates.

Just thought I'd share that - feel free to steal our idea if you like!

So you're saying he solo's a lot?

[ajax34i]

So you're saying he solo's a lot?

Must be Republic-side roleplaying.  I don't imagine that Siths would react well (in character) to any "are you for hire" dialogue.  Maybe Bounty-Hunters...

[Fordel]

The heal being free doesn't automagically make the spec the best healer Wolf.

You're asking for your free heal to be able to go on it's own for any ammount of time, that makes your class better than the one without the free heal. There are ways to balance a mixed mana/energy healer system, but all of them lead to either healing being too powerful, hence irrelevent, hence unfun; or putting major restrictions on encounter design.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE healing on my trooper. It's an incredibly fun mechanic. That doesn't make it any less of a headache to balance.

No, that is not what I am asking. The same way I can't keep threat while tanking but just mashing 1, you wouldn't be able to heal forever by mashing 1.

You aren't immediately doomed to lose aggro the second you HAVE to press 1 as a tank though. The same can't be said for healing here, because the filler heal isn't anywhere strong enough. Like, I don't think the free heal even keeps party with a Sage HoT currently.

[01101010]

The heal being free doesn't automagically make the spec the best healer Wolf.

You're asking for your free heal to be able to go on it's own for any ammount of time, that makes your class better than the one without the free heal. There are ways to balance a mixed mana/energy healer system, but all of them lead to either healing being too powerful, hence irrelevent, hence unfun; or putting major restrictions on encounter design.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE healing on my trooper. It's an incredibly fun mechanic. That doesn't make it any less of a headache to balance.

No, that is not what I am asking. The same way I can't keep threat while tanking but just mashing 1, you wouldn't be able to heal forever by mashing 1.

You aren't immediately doomed to lose aggro the second you HAVE to press 1 as a tank though. The same can't be said for healing here, because the filler heal isn't anywhere strong enough. Like, I don't think the free heal even keeps party with a Sage HoT currently.

And this is the point when someone mentions lack of combat logs to hash all this out. 

[Venkman]

What is LFD (I'm used to LFG)? That what they called it after croo-server dungeon groups in WoW?

perma speed-boost gear.

Don't think anything like this exists.

Yea, the reason I haven't rolled that alt 

[eldaec]

What is LFD (I'm used to LFG)? That what they called it after croo-server dungeon groups in WoW?

perma speed-boost gear.

Don't think anything like this exists.

Yea, the reason I haven't rolled that alt 

I gather LFD is what wow calls automatic group matchmaking for dungeon instances.

Click button, wait, be dumped in dungeon with group, do a thing, receive xp and stuff.

[Rendakor]

Correct, LFD is what the WoW system is called; eldaec sums it up nicely.