SWTOR the MMORPG without the MM...

[Xilren's Twin]

I almost posted this as a front page article, but it's not really a review so much as just my impressions.  Little wall of texty too.
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SWTOR the mmORPG - minimizes the massively multiplayer

“When I began this journey, I was but the apprentice, but now I am the master.”  Ok, enough of my trying to shoehorn movie references into this post.  I have been playing SWTOR since Christmas almost by accident and having fun – one of my boys got a copy so I decided to try it on his account with no beta experience and really only learning about it from watching posts on this board.  What I have discovered is that this game works for me because I am basically playing it as a huge single player game that happens to have other people in it, but only if I want them.  There’s no question that over the years, I have firmly been moving away from the massively multi player part of MMORPG’s b/c most really only seem to work well as multiplayer experiences and my available time is not what it was.  I definitely do not have 3 hours to spend of a raid for gear drops to increase my efficiency 1% and wouldn’t want to spend it that way even if I did.  The design choices in this game with the fully voiced cut scene conversations for every quest and reward, the companions that are like Fallout/DA/ME companions, the fire and forget crafting, the space battles, even the pace of leveling, all seem to support the single player experience much better than in any game prior.  It’s KOTOR 3 with other people and I’m good with that.

I’m currently level 26 or halfway to cap on my first character a mere 3 weeks in, playing maybe two hours most days. During my time, I think I have grouped up a grand total of 3 times with some BC folks, which while fun never felt required.  I don’t feel like I’m missing content because I haven’t grouped more.  I’ve done no PVP, no Flashpoints, and after doing a handful of Heroics solo by over leveling them, I’m skipping them too.  Space battles are a nice change of pace occasionally but have only done about 10 missions.  My quest log consistently stays full, the quests thus far have all been doable either at my level or +1, the bonus awards give enough XP to be worthwhile to do, and even though the quests themselves are really the bog standard “go here kill X rats/rebels/jawa” or “find flashing object Y”, the voice overs and star wars setting are keeping my interest.  My gear is a mix of blue, purple and orange, I’ve touched the auction house only once, and I'm actually keeping up with crafting at a natural pace.  My abilities are varied and useful and to date I really haven’t had to manage my companion combat at all; she does just fine.  I know there are more companions to come, and story chapters, and new planets and such, which ought to hold me through to finish capping out.   That hardly ever happens in online games for me.

As an long time player, you can definitely see the problems with some of BW’s choices (i.e. UI, combat logs, max level game, pvp imbalances, as well as the typical bugs, nerfs and such) which could easily lead to it not have nearly the retention rates of say WoW.  It also is oddly designed in that if you were brand new to MMORPG’s, I think you would struggle with it because they do a horrible job explaining so many important game systems and concepts inside the game itself.  From companions, to ACs crafting, pvp, holocrons, commendations, affection, many of the talents and abilities, LS/DS points, modable gear etc. Most either aren’t explained at all as you play, or get a short codex reference that really doesn’t do it justice.  And no manual in the box of course.  From that standpoint, not having other people to ask about some stuff would have been potentially frustrating.  I also think the pace at the beginning too slow to hold a newbie, but part of that might be my class (Imp Agent).  I didn’t get my first companion until level 9 and they are such a huge part of the game.  I didn’t get a ship until late teens, which locks space combat away for newbies until they have stuck around a while.  And while I’ve heard I’ll get another companions after “chapter 1” that seems to be quite far apart from my first one (I don’t count the ship droid as he only seem useful for crafting).

But quite frankly, at this point I don’t care a bit about that.  If I only play for a month or two I will have easily felt like it was a worthwhile game, much like playing Skyrim, DA1 or ME2 for a month or two.  I don’t know if that was really Bioware’s intent since clearly it’s subscription revenue they are after, but for me is basically a single player game +, which is why I like it.  Other players looking for elder game stuff or pvp competitiveness may have quite the different opinion. We shall see what the future holds for both player retention as well as the influence it has on future games.  But for now, I’m back to hunting womp rats.

[Thrawn]

Nice write up.

It also is oddly designed in that if you were brand new to MMORPG’s, I think you would struggle with it because they do a horrible job explaining so many important game systems and concepts inside the game itself.  From companions, to ACs crafting, pvp, holocrons, commendations, affection, many of the talents and abilities, LS/DS points, modable gear etc. Most either aren’t explained at all as you play, or get a short codex reference that really doesn’t do it justice.  And no manual in the box of course.  From that standpoint, not having other people to ask about some stuff would have been potentially frustrating. 

I had never even thought of this before but I think you are 100% correct.  I'm a long time MMORPG player and I still had areas that I had a hard time figuring out how to do some of the basics and only found them because I knew they were "supposed" to exist in an MMO and went searching.

[Samprimary]

I run a big-ass guild full of a lot of people and it really is the catalyst that makes the game feel alive. Lacking that (and a pretty beefy server population) I could definitely see why you would absolutely feel the emptiness. Comes nowhere close to Hellgate London's massively singleplayer, but

[Venkman]

I agree with your last two paragraphs in their entirety. I'd only add that space combat had almost no explanation either. It's a simple Flash-like game so kinda easy to get. But except for some throwaway loading screen tooltips, you aren't really told what's going on, nor why it's so fundamentally different than normal MMO play, nor why you can't group, etc.

Run speed is painfully slow for the stupidly-sized early zones (especially Coruscant), which makes the pre-14 games kinda painful. I'm not rolling an alt until I can twink some perma speed-boost gear. Story-wise, things in general get off to a slow start for all classes it seems.

It's fun, and is WoW-enough to have some staying power for MMO dabblers. For a bit anyway. This month is critical.

[jakonovski]

Server loads aren't quite what they used to be, but there's so much engaging single player content that a non-poopsocker (did I use that correctly) won't be able to experience all they want in one month. I'm looking to at least finish one Empire and one Republic career and then dabble in alts, which I expect will take about 3 months.

[Kageru]

Which is why if you are interested in the MM part of the genre SWTOR sounds a bit of a tragedy. With all that money, a prestigious IP, and a huge company behind them they could have done some work on adapting or pushing forward the multi-player mechanics to support this sort of game. Instead they pretty much ignored it and just copied existing mechanics without much thought or care so they could go back to focusing on character dialogs and romancing your pet. And a game of this size sucks so much oxygen out of the genre it has probably starved some other more promising alternatives from development.

I mean the LOTRO system of traits and CoH style doors and scaling content (both done better) would have allowed a single player experience that "scaled up" into MP for those who wanted it. But instead they've got a lovingly detailed SP / levelling experiences and a half-baked MP component. That's just bad design and I hope it bites them hard in retention.

[Ingmar]

perma speed-boost gear.

Don't think anything like this exists.

[eldaec]

I wonder how much EA internally recognise the points you make.

Because an interesting thing about it all is that apart from UI polish, everyone here called almost all of this in 2008, again when early gameplay videos were released, and again in beta. The only debate was really about how much the mmog compromises would damage the single player experience - and whether an mmo without multiplayer at the core would be fun.

[Sjofn]

What I find interesting is this game is very rewarding if you DO group. When you're grouped up, they've done basically everything they could to make it just as fast as when you're solo, be it quest drops dropping for everyone or clickies being available for everyone in the group to click (as opposed to only letting one person click it), the holocommunicator, etc. Add on the whole social points/shared conversation thing, and it's really fun to play in a dedicated duo.

[Ginaz]

Its only a single player game if you want it to be.  Grouping is rewarded better than other MMOs IMO.

[jakonovski]

Its only a single player game if you want it to be.  Grouping is rewarded better than other MMOs IMO.

That's just like any other co-op game and not very impressive. A real mmo has spontaneous group activity. In SWTOR you're lucky if you see another player once an hour while questing.

[Minvaren]

My experience so far is that places that are completely deserted during the week have a line to click on the quest item on the weekends.

And yes, the game is great fun to play in a dedicated duo.

[tmp]

That's just like any other co-op game and not very impressive.

It's impressive for an mmo, which are notoriously bad about it and hardly like these 'other co-op games', being some 5+ years behind the curve and all.

A real mmo has spontaneous group activity. In SWTOR you're lucky if you see another player once an hour while questing.

I must have the best luck in the world then or Shien is somehow unique. There's people passing by, people in the quest hubs and people asking in chat for groups to do the quests (usually the bonus heroics ones, but regular group ones as well)

[Paelos]

Its only a single player game if you want it to be.  Grouping is rewarded better than other MMOs IMO.

That's just like any other co-op game and not very impressive. A real mmo has spontaneous group activity. In SWTOR you're lucky if you see another player once an hour while questing.

There's plenty of that. I have random people milling around bonus quest zones waiting for spontaneous groups with my duo on regular occasions. I think it's a server by server thing, not a game thing.

[trias_e]

Its only a single player game if you want it to be.  Grouping is rewarded better than other MMOs IMO.

That's just like any other co-op game and not very impressive. A real mmo has spontaneous group activity. In SWTOR you're lucky if you see another player once an hour while questing.

I fully agree.  First, the heroic quests are so...out of place amongst the solo content.  I've yet to do a single one.  I'm not going to sit around waiting for random strangers to group with when the solo progression train is laid out nonstop in front of me.  And my experience on Shien is that no one is ever around (except on the fleet and perhaps in the main, initial area of the planet).  It's incredible how rarely I see other people.  My MMO vet friend looks over my shoulder when I'm playing, and has asked "does anyone else play this game?".  I have to explain it's heavily instanced and spread out such that you almost never see another soul out questing.  I'm fine with that.  The treadmill is quicker with no one else around.  It rarely makes sense to actually want other players when you are climbing the treadmill in WoW clones, SWTOR just recognized this and made it happen.

[Fordel]

Its only a single player game if you want it to be.  Grouping is rewarded better than other MMOs IMO.

That's just like any other co-op game and not very impressive. A real mmo has spontaneous group activity. In SWTOR you're lucky if you see another player once an hour while questing.

Is this another one of those things where we bitch about no community but immediately leave every public chat channel there is? 

[eldaec]

I play in EU hours on US servers.

There are people in the quest hubs all the time.

Every now and again I randomly invite people to clear an area with me. Pick-up duos are easy to get and usually easier to manage than larger groups. The companion system helps a lot.

I have to do this by random blind invite because nothing else works (if you are one of the RARR BLIND INVITE RAGE people, well tough shit, it is all that works).

The designers have clearly worried about how they encourage grouping (social points etc) but the fact is the systems they have don't work and most people don't try. I don't have any easy answers for how you take the game from where it is now to a place where grouping happens, but EA could make the game much stickier if they found a way that does work.

[Malakili]

Its only a single player game if you want it to be.  Grouping is rewarded better than other MMOs IMO.

That's just like any other co-op game and not very impressive. A real mmo has spontaneous group activity. In SWTOR you're lucky if you see another player once an hour while questing.

Is this another one of those things where we bitch about no community but immediately leave every public chat channel there is? 

This is why I'm still waiting for a Neverwinter Nights esque privately run servers MMO-like game to come out again.  All the benefits of an MMO, with a community small enough to manage.  Also, banning asshats isn't a problem.

[Merusk]

Its only a single player game if you want it to be.  Grouping is rewarded better than other MMOs IMO.

That's just like any other co-op game and not very impressive. A real mmo has spontaneous group activity. In SWTOR you're lucky if you see another player once an hour while questing.

Is this another one of those things where we bitch about no community but immediately leave every public chat channel there is? 

Hey, I want community but I don't want to deal with people!

[rattran]

It's only a handful of people ruining General most places. But I lose my ignore list everytime chat decides to reset font/channels so I keep seeing the same asshats trolling.

[proudft]

Yeah, I'll turn General on once I am content with having shit spoiled.  Like, maybe after character 3 or so.

[tmp]

Yeah, I'll turn General on once I am content with having shit spoiled.  Like, maybe after character 3 or so.

Can't say i've had anything spoiled yet through chat. Could be again server-based thing, but it's quite impressive when you think of it.

[Koyasha]

I heard they are actually suspending/banning for talking about spoilers in open channels.  Don't know if that's true (I seriously doubt anyone is actually getting banned over it) but even the rumor is likely to keep the open conversation about spoilers down to some degree.

[jakonovski]

The designers have clearly worried about how they encourage grouping (social points etc) but the fact is the systems they have don't work and most people don't try. I don't have any easy answers for how you take the game from where it is now to a place where grouping happens, but EA could make the game much stickier if they found a way that does work.

I think it's an unavoidable consequence of SWTOR being a story game. It's a great game but I think EA/Bioware are misguided if they try to make it anything else. It will never have anything like someone kiting Lord Kazzak to Stormwind, or the general melee in Hillsbrad. Opening of Ahn-Qiraj is probably as far as it could go.

[Sjofn]

LFD sure would help. 

[Thrawn]

LFD sure would help.  

That would ruin "casual" players immersion through some magical means.

[Ratman_tf]

Hey, I want community but I don't want to deal with people!

This is my approach to MMOGs post EQ. I don't want to interact with the general population of a game. You only need 5, 10 , 25 people to run multiplayer content, not 100's of asshats running around saying "FUCK MY CORNHOLE, ASSLICK!"
I'm a member of a raiding guild in WoW and a small friends guild in TOR. That's all the multiplayer I care for and is required by the game.

Fuck LFR and LFD. I activley avoid Random Q Chucklefuck. Why would I use a tool that puts me in a group with him?

[Minvaren]

LFD sure would help.  

That would ruin "casual" players immersion through some magical means.

"You sense that this area is too difficult to attempt alone.

Press Y to leave a beacon that will alert you if another qualified adventurer stumbles upon it, or any other key to continue on your way."

[Fordel]

"You radio in for reinforcements!"


<--- Lore Master 

[Sjofn]

Hey, I want community but I don't want to deal with people!

This is my approach to MMOGs post EQ. I don't want to interact with the general population of a game. You only need 5, 10 , 25 people to run multiplayer content, not 100's of asshats running around saying "FUCK MY CORNHOLE, ASSLICK!"
I'm a member of a raiding guild in WoW and a small friends guild in TOR. That's all the multiplayer I care for and is required by the game.

Fuck LFR and LFD. I activley avoid Random Q Chucklefuck. Why would I use a tool that puts me in a group with him?

Well for starters, when there's only 3 of your guildies on and you want to do something together, instead of going "whelp," you can actually do something. Random Q Chucklefuck is, nine times out of ten, a perfectly normal person, in my experience.

Secondly, if you DO have a full group, it sure is nice to just hit "queue for dungeon" and GO instead of all the traveling bullshit, all the deciding which instance to do, etc. I didn't realize how much I liked WoW's LFD for a full guild group until I did a flashpoint in SWTOR recently.

[Ratman_tf]

Well for starters, when there's only 3 of your guildies on and you want to do something together, instead of going "whelp," you can actually do something. Random Q Chucklefuck is, nine times out of ten, a perfectly normal person, in my experience.

Secondly, if you DO have a full group, it sure is nice to just hit "queue for dungeon" and GO instead of all the traveling bullshit, all the deciding which instance to do, etc. I didn't realize how much I liked WoW's LFD for a full guild group until I did a flashpoint in SWTOR recently.

Stuff that can be addressed without using LFD. Make some dungeons that only require 2-4 people. Hell, make dungeons scale to number of characters.
The insta-travel to dungeons is valid. But not necessarily something that has to be tied to LFD.

I'm glad you don't encounter shitheads in your PUGs very often. I have done a few, but only with a couple of guildies or more. I like having at least a few groupmates that I know I can count on.

[Sjofn]

While I would not cry over dungeons that require a mere two people (their flashpoints only need four, by the way), I don't think the answer to how fucking annoying it is to get together a dungeon group is "make it require less people." Especially if you're concerned people aren't playing with each other enough.

[Merusk]

The fear of other people that pervades some of you is stunning at times, really.

My comment was sarcasm.  I forgot it's some folks gospel.

[Ingmar]

Well for starters, when there's only 3 of your guildies on and you want to do something together, instead of going "whelp," you can actually do something. Random Q Chucklefuck is, nine times out of ten, a perfectly normal person, in my experience.

Secondly, if you DO have a full group, it sure is nice to just hit "queue for dungeon" and GO instead of all the traveling bullshit, all the deciding which instance to do, etc. I didn't realize how much I liked WoW's LFD for a full guild group until I did a flashpoint in SWTOR recently.

Stuff that can be addressed without using LFD. Make some dungeons that only require 2-4 people. Hell, make dungeons scale to number of characters.
The insta-travel to dungeons is valid. But not necessarily something that has to be tied to LFD.

I'm glad you don't encounter shitheads in your PUGs very often. I have done a few, but only with a couple of guildies or more. I like having at least a few groupmates that I know I can count on.

You're basically arguing that because you'll never use it, you don't want it in the game. Are you doing PUGs *now*? If you aren't, why would you care if they change how PUGs work to what the majority of players clearly want?

[Rendakor]

I don't mind LFD in theory, as long as it's confined to a single server. It's when they make it cross server that I don't care for it. Until we have an MMO with more permeable servers, having anything cross server destroys community. I'd elaborate but we've had this argument 9001 times now.