I've been wrong all this time, Scientology makes perfect sense.

[Signe]

The point is Christianity, for the most part, is a religion while Scientology is a cult.

And it doesn't suprise me that Bruce had any involvement with a cult.



Since it's no longer schild's birthday, I can remind him of this:

Jason Lee is a Scientologist.

So are these people:

Anne Archer
 Billy Sheehan
 Carina Ricco
 Carl W. Röhrig
 Catherine Bell
 Chris Masterson
 Corin Nemec
 Danny Masterson
 Edgar Winter
 Eduardo Palomo
 Erika Christensen
 Geoffrey Lewis
 Giovanni Ribisi
 Greta Van Susteren
 Haywood Nelson
 Isaac Hayes
 Jason Beghe
 Jeff Pomerantz
 Jenna Elfman
 Jennifer Aspen
 John Travolta
 Judy Norton
 Juliette Lewis
 Karen Nelson Bell
 Kate Ceberano
 Keith Code
 Kelly Preston
 Kimberly Kates
 Kirstie Alley
 Leah Remini
 Lisa Marie Presley
 Lynsey Bartilson
 Marisol Nichols
 Michael Fairman
 Michael Roberts
 Michelle Stafford
 Nancy Cartwright
 Pablo Santos
 Priscilla Presley
 Rev. Alfreddie Johnson, Jr.
 Sharon Case
 Terry Jastrow
 Tom Cruise
 Xavier Deluc
 
 It makes me sad that John Travolta is stupid.  He's so cute.

[Shockeye]

CORIN NEMEC? Damn.

It seems Parker Lewis CAN lose.

[MrHat]

I'm sorry, color me foreign, but isn't Protestant based on Catholicism?

See, I come from a place where there are 4 religions (3 really):  Islam, Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, and Israel.

Why do you call it "Israel" rather than "Judaism"?

Anyway, yes, Protestants derive from Catholics.  So do Greek Orthodoxy.  So do Mormons.  And Catholics and Muslims both derive from Jews.

Bruce

The key differences between them being..?

And I refer to it as Israel, because that's what it is called over in the Mid. East.

[SirBruce]

One could argue that Catholocism developed from Orthodoxy.

Good point, and probably more accurate from a historical POV, but since the world became dominated by Western thought, the Western tradition of saying otherwise prevails. :)

And don't leave Lutherans out of the discussion. You'd be unwise to ignore the power of the pot luck.

Or the Anglicans, the Quakers, the Unitarians, the Coptics, etc.

Bruce

[Kenrick]

Thank you, shock.  I feel better now.  Carry on.

[Kenrick]

Isaac Hayes

"Hey chef, whats a scientamologist?"

"Oh, children.  You see, when a man loses his mind...."

/begin song

[Signe]

Those scientologists are nuts.  I'm so glad I'm a Luddite.

[stray]

Why do you call it "Israel" rather than "Judaism"?

Anyway, yes, Protestants derive from Catholics.  So do Greek Orthodoxy.  So do Mormons.  And Catholics and Muslims both derive from Jews.

Bruce

Orthodox do not derive from Catholicism. Get it straight. Catholics were "Orthodox" until they took the whole "seat of Rome" thing a little too seriously. Then they were excommunicated.

[Ironwood]

Where the heck did you get that list Signe.  Say it aint so !  Some of those names surprise the hell out of me.

[SirBruce]

The key differences between them being..?

The various Protestant religions began when a bunch of intelligent folks in the Middle Ages basically decided that the Catholic Church was overly corrupt and powerful (which it was), and needed to be reformed.  The Pope didn't like this very much, and what followed where hundreds of years of war and political conflict without which the United States probably wouldn't have ever existed, since it was mainly founded my Protestant immigrants.

Each Protestant sect focuses on different aspects of Christianity, but all are distinct from the Catholic Church.  According to wikipedia, the distinct beliefs are:

1. Solus Christus: Christ alone.
Only Christ is a mediator between God and man.

2. Sola scriptura: Scripture alone.
Against the Catholic orthodoxy that Tradition, the teachings of the College of Bishops united with the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, shares primacy with Scripture for the handing-on of doctrine, Protestants argue that the Bible is the only rule of faith. This doctrine is connected with the doctrine of private interpretation of the bible.

3. Sola fide: Faith alone.
In contrast to the Roman Catholic concept of meritorious works, of penance and indulgences, masses for the dead, the treasury of the merits of saints and martyrs, a ministering priesthood who hears confessions, and purgatory, the Protestants argued that every believer is a priest and obtains reconciliation with God through faith in Jesus Christ, alone.

4. Sola gratia: Grace alone.
Against the Roman Catholic view that faith and works necessarily occur together and that works flow from faith, the Reformers posited that salvation is a gift from God dispensed through Jesus Christ, regardless of merit - for no one deserves salvation. The Roman Catholic Church, by contrast, posits that salvation is not dispensed through Jesus Christ, but was effected by Jesus Christ, on the Cross at Calvary.

All of the above taken together can basically be viewed as a weakening of Church heirarchy and established power structures, and instead returning the religion to its roots and letting every man judge for himself how best to interpret the Bible.  You read it, you make your own deal with Jesus, and that's all that matters; you don't have to go to a special guy in a robe and do what he tells you to do in order to achieve salvation.

With the advent of Vatican I & II, it is fair to say that many of these beliefs are no longer as antithetical to the Catholic Church as they were when they began.

Bruce

[SirBruce]

Where the heck did you get that list Signe.  Say it aint so !  Some of those names surprise the hell out of me.

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/faq-you/celeb.txt

Bruce

[Signe]

Where the heck did you get that list Signe.  Say it aint so !  Some of those names surprise the hell out of me.

I remembered that John Travolta was a scientologist and several other celebs so I  googled it, choosing the first alphabetical list I found.  I removed Jason Lee because I didn't want Shockeye to call me redundant.  It was all very complicated.      I knew it was a celebrity embraced thingy, but I didn't realise that so many were into it, either.  I agree that some of them don't seem as flakey as you would think and I can't figure out how these sorts of beliefs make sense to seemingly normal people. 

I also looked up quite a few of those people and saw that many have been involved with scientology sponsered benefits and fund raising, so I think the list is relatively accurate.

Edit:  I didn't actually get it from Bruce's list... that's too hard to read. I did the Wiki thang.  This is an interesting list, too.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_by_belief

[stray]

I knew Isaac Hayes was one. That was quite enough to already make me sad.

[Righ]

Anyway, yes, Protestants derive from Catholics.  So do Greek Orthodoxy.  So do Mormons.  And Catholics and Muslims both derive from Jews.

That's stretching and baiting, and it will incite argument. You might as well say that Jews are really Syrians. Despite there being an element of truth, its as daft as a brush to make such an assertion.

However, this is very good:

Well, I trust Harlan.  At the risk of making the thread "about me" again, I actually know Harlan personally, and while he is an opinionated little prick, I respect him enough to say he usually does not make stuff up.  However, my point is merely this: so what?  Who is to say that Jesus Christ himself didn't have a similar conversation?  Heck, the Church of England was started by a guy who simply wanted a divorce and 100,000 pounds from the Church in royal payment, but that doesn't mean therefor that all Anglicans are a joke.  I mean, you're free to make fun of them like Eddie Izzard, just as people are free to make jokes about Catholics.  My point is it's quite unfair to look down on one preferentially over the other simply because they have unusual beliefs or questionable origins.

As a general rule of thumb, I am opposed to all organized religions.  However, I find it difficult to find fault with one over another unless they have some particularly heinous beliefs.  I recognize the value all religions provide to a society.

The only thing I'd add is that the word "little" should have been in boldface. What Harlan says is supported by other attendees. Russell Miller wrote an excellent biography, which is available in full on Clambake.

[Jayce]

And I refer to it as Israel, because that's what it is called over in the Mid. East.

I thought it was "The Zionist Entity".

At least to some.

[Llava]

Kirstie Alley

NOO!

I had so much respect for her! 

Now what will I do with all my DVDs of Veronica's Closet?

[Paelos]

Kirstie Alley

NOO!

I had so much respect for her! 

Now what will I do with all my DVDs of Veronica's Closet?

I think she ate hers. Try that.

[Signe]

Gratz to Paelos on post #1111!!1!!1!!

Scientology is sort of like numerology.  Right?

[Methane]

Now what will I do with all my DVDs of Veronica's Closet?

They make lovely coasters, reflectors, flying disks of death....

[Llava]

They make lovely coasters, reflectors, flying disks of death....

I think I'll go with the flying disks of death tactic.  They've already proven themselves remarkable weapons, and that's only when used as directed.  Add velocity and watch the chaos begin.

[Trippy]

Once again, the thread wasn't "about me" until you decided to make a point of it.  Really, must you be so predictable?

My post was more of an attack on Catholicism than anything else.  Originally I didn't even include the disclaimer, but decided after the fact that I should, in case it came up in later conversation.  Dammned if I do and dammned if I don't, I suppose.

Fine, then... answer this.

Why does Scientology require so much money to get into the later steps?  You can be dirt poor and still be a Catholic.  Matter of fact some of the most devout Catholic communities have no shoes and live in dirt-floor shacks in the third world.

Scientology strikes me as the religion of the rich and famous who want to be "unique".

Bruce did not say Catholicism is similar to Scientology -- he said Scientology's beliefs are no more kooky than Catholicism and I would agree with that assessment. For example, try explaining transubstantiation to somebody who wasn't raised in a Christian culture and you'll probably either get a look of total befuddlement or a question like, "So Catholics are cannibals?"

To me, Scientology is a mixture of Buddhism (reincarnation, eightfold path) and "old school" Catholicism where only the Church could forgive you for your sins and you had to pay for it (paid indulgences) wrapped around a sci-fi, pseudo-scientific mythology (Xenu, aliens, emeters, etc.).

[El Gallo]

You know, I never really found her very attractive before.  But now that I know she's insane, she's gotten much more appealing. 

[Shockeye]

You know, I never really found her very attractive before.  But now that I know she's insane, she's gotten much more appealing. 

Which one was "her" again? I got lost.

[Sobelius]

Once again, the thread wasn't "about me" until you decided to make a point of it.  Really, must you be so predictable?

My post was more of an attack on Catholicism than anything else.  Originally I didn't even include the disclaimer, but decided after the fact that I should, in case it came up in later conversation.  Dammned if I do and dammned if I don't, I suppose.

Fine, then... answer this.

Why does Scientology require so much money to get into the later steps?  You can be dirt poor and still be a Catholic.  Matter of fact some of the most devout Catholic communities have no shoes and live in dirt-floor shacks in the third world.

Scientology strikes me as the religion of the rich and famous who want to be "unique".

Bruce did not say Catholicism is similar to Scientology -- he said Scientology's beliefs are no more kooky than Catholicism and I would agree with that assessment. For example, try explaining transubstantiation to somebody who wasn't raised in a Christian culture and you'll probably either get a look of total befuddlement or a question like, "So Catholics are cannibals?"

To me, Scientology is a mixture of Buddhism (reincarnation, eightfold path) and "old school" Catholicism where only the Church could forgive you for your sins and you had to pay for it (paid indulgences) wrapped around a sci-fi, pseudo-scientific mythology (Xenu, aliens, emeters, etc.).

I know next to nothing about Scientology but do feel that its secretive nature and copyright claims to its 'expensive secret insider info' make it, in my book, as suspect as any supposed 'secret insider info' of the Catholic church.

I was raised in Roman Catholicism and agree that any belief/faith system will sound odd to anyone who was not culturally indoctrinated with it from the start.

And wasn't it the Romans who initailly believed early Christians were some kind of cannibalism cult? It wasn't until I got some distance from the Catholic Mass that I could hear some of the lyrics to hymns I used to gleefully sing as a child, with such references as "eating his body" and "drinking his blood". Figuratively, I know, but I can see  myself as a child just singing along because it was what my parents did and what teachers and other adults at church did. And even now, some American Catholics have a hard time with the Mexican fascination with overly bloody crucifixes and crowns of thorns and open (sacred) hearts in Mexican church statuary and imagery.

[El Gallo]

You know, I never really found her very attractive before.  But now that I know she's insane, she's gotten much more appealing. 

Which one was "her" again? I got lost.

Elfman.  My apologies for veering back on topic.  If it makes you feel better, pretend I was speaking of the Blessed Mother.

[Shockeye]

You know, I never really found her very attractive before.  But now that I know she's insane, she's gotten much more appealing. 

Which one was "her" again? I got lost.

Elfman.  My apologies for veering back on topic.  If it makes you feel better, pretend I was speaking of the Blessed Mother.

I thought maybe you were talking about Signe. I'm easily distrac... OOOHHH! SHINEY!

[Jayce]

Bruce did not say Catholicism is similar to Scientology -- he said Scientology's beliefs are no more kooky than Catholicism and I would agree with that assessment.

I realized this after I posted, but what I was trying to get at was this:  it makes it highly suspect to me that they demand money to advance further.  It seems like a conflict of interest.   The relative kookiness is a matter of opinion.

"old school" Catholicism where only the Church could forgive you for your sins and you had to pay for it (paid indulgences)

To be sure, you didn't HAVE to pay for it, the issue was that it was allowed at all.  If you weren't rich you could gain forgiveness by the usual routes (confession, penance).

[SirBruce]

And yet people have no problem paying a psychologist to improve their mental health.  So why not pay a "priest" to improve your spiritual health?  Where's the law that says all religions must be free to be valid?  (An interesting counter-point here, since one of the core tenants of Scientology is that most of Psychology/Psychiatry is a fraud.)

Bruce

[Sobelius]

So having admitted I know next to nothing about Scientology, i checked out their Web site and their 50 page FAQ. I didn't read all 50 pages but reviewed quite a few of them.

Then I also check out a counter-Scientology site. And this interesting page at Operation Clambake.

It seems that Scientology runs into trouble when its concept of "suppressive people" starts to mean anyone who speaks negatively of Scientology. Basically, it sounds like the message is hate/harm/destroy your enemies. That certainly doesn't seem to be the way to bring about the peaceful world they say they want to help people create...

[Llava]

So having admitted I know next to nothing about Scientology, i checked out their Web site and their 50 page FAQ. I didn't read all 50 pages but reviewed quite a few of them.

Then I also check out a counter-Scientology site. And this interesting page at Operation Clambake.

It seems that Scientology runs into trouble when its concept of "suppressive people" starts to mean anyone who speaks negatively of Scientology. Basically, it sounds like the message is hate/harm/destroy your enemies. That certainly doesn't seem to be the way to bring about the peaceful world they say they want to help people create...

Sure it does.  When everyone who disagrees is dead, the peace can begin!

[schild]

Ya know, Xenu and the Virgin Mary have a nickname for one of my friends.




















































Donkeypunch.

[Shockeye]

At this point I should probably Den this thread, but hell.. let's let this one ride a bit and see where to goes next.



















Hot Karl in 3... 2... 1...

[MrHat]

NSFW
http://www.chud.com/chudvd/reviews/images3/st1.jpg
NSFW


Who wants a mustache ride?!

[schild]

Link was fubar.

But you did give me this juicy bit.

Now, when Constantine opens this week, if it is a monster hit I will stand at attention. I dig the movie (my review arrives tomorrow eve) a lot, but it is dark. Really dark. Not only are the themes it tackles a little more grim than the typical blockbuster but it also doesn't flinch from showing some pretty sinister things and doesn't explain them away as temporary threats but as timeless perpetual ones. I love that about it, so if the film makes some coin I'll be the first to say that a precedent might be being set.

I'm going to see that Saturday. Now I'm even more excited.

I like it when Keanu plays Keanu. Much like when Al Pacino plays Al Pacino.

It's when they try ACTING that there's a problem.

[Shockeye]

I like it when Keanu plays Keanu. Much like when Al Pacino plays Al Pacino.

What about Keanu playing Al and Al playing Keanu in yet another Freaky Friday remake?

I'm feeling blockbuster gold on this one. Get a producer on the phone, stat!