Noob questions

[Raguel]

This is the most group-friendly-without-being-group-required MMO I've played.

I can't argue with this since it has a major qualifier, but I wish they would relax some of the barriers to grouping specifically with heroics and WBs, or at least make it clear to n00bs like me what the requirements are.

[Zetor]

I'll also add a caveat that a lot of the pve (mainly the mundane planet quests) isn't very inspiring at all when solo.

[Raguel]

I'll also add a caveat that a lot of the pve (mainly the mundane planet quests) isn't very inspiring at all when solo.

Yeah I'd rather just do a ton of FPs than do non planet storyline quests. I love doing the planet story lines (especially E Balmorra and Taris) though, for the most part.

[Sjofn]

GW2 PVE would have to be worth doing at all to be worth doing in a duo, though.

It's not even that. I have literally no reason to want to hang out with you. If you happen to wander into the zone I'm in and kill stuff near me, well, that's cool I guess, but there's no reason for it and it adds absolutely nothing whatsoever to the experience. You could just as easily be a stranger passing through and my experience would be exactly the same. I lose nothing by you being there, but I lose out on nothing without you, either.

GW2's PvE is very weird. It's both very social and extremely isolated at the same time.

SWTOR, on the other hand, does everything it can to make sure you don't lose anything by grouping (which is indeed the same in GW2, but otherwise you're at least a bit penalized in any other MMO, just because you need to find twice as many clickies, get twice as many bear ass drops, TSW had those fucking solo instances, etc). But the conversations in a group are fun, you get more experience, and silly as social points are, you get those for dress up clothes (it's even better now that the stuff is adaptable instead of only light armor). I feel like it adds something, rather than simply exists for the sake of existing (like in GW2).

This isn't, of course, taking into account dungeon content and stuff. I'm just talking kicking around with a friend or two (or three!) and having that feel fun and rewarding and like it added something to the experience in ways beyond "I get to shoot the shit with my friends." 'Cause I can shoot the shit with my friends without grouping with them. :P

[Tannhauser]

The best times I've had on SWTOR is with another player and we burn through many, many quests.  Knock out solo, story and Heroic +2's and watch the xp pile up.  Went through one planet almost all the way through in one night. 

So yeah, this game makes even me want to group.  That's pretty good.

[eldaec]

Swtor doesn't do everything it can. It doesn't do sidekicking.

Which is completely critical outside if a totally committed 'play these characters only as a group' situation.

[Zetor]

Yep, I pretty much had to play solo and do random dungeon finder PUGs 100% of the time* because I have really different playtimes from the rest of my guild, and everyone paces their levelling differently (some people play a lot, others play less; some people have multiple alts, some focus on one character only). LOTRO had this problem too, and it was even worse there because levelling takes forfuckingever.

This also applied to WOW, mind, but levelling in WOW was a relatively short solo-oriented endeavor in the first place. In SWTOR, most of us didn't even get past act 2.


* this isn't really true, we could group for warzones due to the bolstering thing. Most of my guild hates diku pvp though, and honestly pvp in SWTOR is nothing special (it's not TERRIBLE, but it's not very good either). Also, warzones in an organized premade group are almost always a boring one-sided steamroll due to the huge difference a 4-man premade makes in a 8-man battleground.

[Ingmar]

Swtor doesn't do everything it can. It doesn't do sidekicking.

Which is completely critical outside if a totally committed 'play these characters only as a group' situation.

Sidekicking isn't important enough for me to cancel out the narrative disruption it would cause in a game like SWTOR. I guess I could deal with it in flashpoints, though (you'd have to change the loot model). Exemplaring would be more OK. I loved it in CoH, and hated that it was unoptional in GW2, I think I'd rather NOT have it than have it that way.

[eldaec]

In which case you'd choose not to use it - but honestly in your specific case you aren't really in a position to appreciate it.

Being married to the single person on earth SWTOR was most designed for and who may very well attempt every gender/race/class/alignment/romance combination before she is done is not a typical SWTOR experience.

Spoilers are only really relevant on the class quests and if your friend is playing a class you will play through later. For most people that means they maybe have to worry about joining 1 or 2 class stories - and even then they can choose not to spectate the cutscenes in a pinch.

[Nevermore]

I can see how sidekicking would be a problem in TOR since it's so story driven, but exemplaring (the higher level player leveling down) would work well.

[Sjofn]

Not every alignment combo, I have a hard time with dark side choices. 

[Fordel]

They'll mostly be twileks too.

[Raguel]

What about different skill trees combos?  

Anyone use Knight's crusade armor (synthweaver level 27)? I'm making some for my JK. I could have sworn that the first time I previewed it, it wasn't a midriff. As far as I know it's the only moddable heavy armor that is, and I haven't seen any at all above level 20 or so.

eta: speaking of which I still need the schems for bracer and belt if anyone has or can make them.

I actually made some coin last week by crafting and selling on the GTN. Bought four of those Cartel indestructible crystals and some mats.

[Sjofn]

You get a lot of orange robe rewards from quests and stuff. A lot. My JK has like five in her vault, I think, and had slapped one on Lord Spoiler. :P

As for different skill sets, no, because I can just respec for that, but different ACs, yes. 

[Tannhauser]

Agreed.  I think they should let us shift AC's because why make us go through the class storyline again just to access the alternate trees?  Hell, put that on the cartel market.  I'd buy that for a dollar.

[Ingmar]

I think he meant it was the only orange heavy robe that shows off your bellybutton.

On the AC respec thing, I wanted it before I played, I still don't think it would be a disaster, but I don't really mind it terribly since it gives me an excuse to go through the stories a second time gender/alignment flipped.

[Sjofn]

I want AC flipping because I fucking hate playing a sage/sorc but would like to be able to switch to it if we have a dire need for one at some point.

[Tannhauser]

I think he meant it was the only orange heavy robe that shows off your bellybutton.

On the AC respec thing, I wanted it before I played, I still don't think it would be a disaster, but I don't really mind it terribly since it gives me an excuse to go through the stories a second time gender/alignment flipped.

Stop liking what I don't like.  Anyway you make a good point, but once per class to 50 is fine with me.

[Raguel]

What's AC?

And yes I did mean "showing off bellybutton". On the official forums there were a couple of people bitching about not all the jedi gear being matronly, and I've never seen any but medium armor like that, so I figured it didn't exist. Maybe they were just referring to consular gear.

[Fordel]

Probably, 90% of JC gear = SpaceNun.


AC = Advanced Class, Sentinel vs. Guardian etc.

[Zetor]

I'd like dual spec before AC respec, and they still haven't implemented that (the zero-cost field respec thing is NOT an acceptable substitute, sorry). Until then, I just make sure that I choose different ACs on classes on both sides (vanguard/gunslinger/sage/sentinel v mercenary/operative/assassin/juggernaut) -- with an obligatory one-year wait between levelling alts so as to make the planet quests fresh-ish again. 

[eldaec]

Another thing they could do is add a forth tree so there are no DPS only classes left. I assume the practical reason people want to swap is access to tanking or healing.

But an AC retrain would seem easier to implement.

[koro]

AC swapping - if you're talking about swapping ACs like you would swap specs in another game - is idiotic, and I don't understand how any of you can seriously be for this. Despite the shared abilities, they're pretty much wholly discrete classes and play extremely differently from one another. It's like if I were still playing WoW, and I went "Okay, I'm getting kind of tired of my Priest, I think I'll go respec him to Death Knight  now." Those shared classes have lead to some very weird expectations apparently.

And what would the advantage be? "I hate playing Sorc/Sage, but if my group really needs one, I'll swap to it because boy howdy that's sure not going to lead to burnout!"? Why? Because you don't want to run through the story again? I'm sorry, no. This game has low enough replayability as it is, and AC swapping would remove one of the only reasons to actually go through a class story you've seen over again. Plus it places an unfair burden on Warriors and Knights, who would have to more than double the amount of gear they cart around, when no other class set would have to.

[Ingmar]

They're no different from each other than specs of paladin or monk in WoW, honestly.

[Ironwood]

I'm with Koro on this one.  I think it's a little silly to ask this.

Now, Dual Spec is almost a must at this point.  That said, I'm ok with my Tanks because they dps a fair bit, but my healing Sorceror is just shit.  (also, healing with her is shit, but that's another story.)

[Tannhauser]

AC switching doesn't have to be on the fly as koro suggested.  Make it a moneysink where you have to go back to the station and spend a lot of credits or buy a cartel item. Make it non-trivial, maybe even with a modest amount of dallies. 

I see Powertech and Merc as two branches from the same tree.  With half of that tree forever locked out.

[eldaec]

While I agree with you guys, dual spec would cause an almighty wailing and gnashing of teeth from snipers and marauders. Because, as you know, anything a developer does that benefits other people more than yourself is a calculated insult.

[Jherad]

While I agree with you guys, dual spec would cause an almighty wailing and gnashing of teeth from snipers and marauders. Because, as you know, anything a developer does that benefits other people more than yourself is a calculated insult.

Meh, many of the gunslingers I know respec between saboteur for ranked warzones and sharpshooter for fun/pve - and the sentinels actually respec on the fly from focus to combat for huttball. Pretty much everyone could get some use from it.

[Sjofn]

AC swapping - if you're talking about swapping ACs like you would swap specs in another game - is idiotic, and I don't understand how any of you can seriously be for this. Despite the shared abilities, they're pretty much wholly discrete classes and play extremely differently from one another. It's like if I were still playing WoW, and I went "Okay, I'm getting kind of tired of my Priest, I think I'll go respec him to Death Knight  now." Those shared classes have lead to some very weird expectations apparently.

And what would the advantage be? "I hate playing Sorc/Sage, but if my group really needs one, I'll swap to it because boy howdy that's sure not going to lead to burnout!"? Why? Because you don't want to run through the story again? I'm sorry, no. This game has low enough replayability as it is, and AC swapping would remove one of the only reasons to actually go through a class story you've seen over again. Plus it places an unfair burden on Warriors and Knights, who would have to more than double the amount of gear they cart around, when no other class set would have to.

For most of the classes, it is FAR more like "I am sick of being a holy paladin, I think I'll respec to protection." And claiming "replayability" is just silly. I am the queen of replaying this game, and I think asking people be as crazy as me just to play the other side of their class is uh. Not reasonable. Why go through a class story again? Because you liked it. That's the only reason you should go through it again (I mean c'mon, there's 8 class stories, that's plenty for the normies.). Otherwise, that will lead to the feared Burn Out, since if someone doesn't like the storyline of the class, well, they'll resent doing it again if their group really, really needs whatever the opposite AC is.

Speaking of burn out, since swapping AC really isn't much different from respeccing (it REALLY ISN'T much different, I have played a lot of the different ACs and while there's an obvious split, none of them are any more drastic than, say, feral/resto druid), the burn out thing is also not any more major than it currently would be. People respec to something more useful to their group or raid when they need to, if they want to, as it is. We all already understand this. It's up to them to keep themselves from burning out. I know where my line is on the sage healing, for example.

Also, boo fucking hoo for the warriors and knights. You don't have to flip your AC if you don't want to. You really don't. And your "having" to carry a set of medium and heavy is no different than, oh, my consular having to carry different sets of light armor to fill the different AC roles. It's another price a person decides if they want to pay if they want that flexibility. It's an option, not compulsory.

[Lantyssa]

How is going from DPS <-> Healer any different than going from DPS <-> Tank or Healer <-> Tank?  It's a completely arbitrary line.

And how anyone could be against giving players more options with zero negative impact upon themselves I don't know.

[Nevermore]

AC swapping - if you're talking about swapping ACs like you would swap specs in another game - is idiotic, and I don't understand how any of you can seriously be for this. Despite the shared abilities, they're pretty much wholly discrete classes and play extremely differently from one another. It's like if I were still playing WoW, and I went "Okay, I'm getting kind of tired of my Priest Resto Druid, I think I'll go respec him to Death Knight Bear tank now."

What's the problem again?

The difference between a Sage and a Shadow is nothing more than the difference between a Balance/Resto Druid and a Feral Druid.  Ranged DPS? Check.  Healing? Check.  Tanking? Check.  Stealthy melee DPS? Check.

[Rokal]

One detail worth considering is that SWTOR has way more ability bloat than WoW. Switching to a different AC means learning 3-4x more abilities than switching talent specs in WoW. Even Rift has less ability bloat, but switching to a new Soul at a high level is still an overwhelming experience and it takes a while to learn how to play again. I think the feature is necessary in WoW/Rift where so much emphasis is placed on end-game content where specific group compositions are required to play, but it makes less sense for SWTOR. Leveling content, where dual-spec is less useful, is the main appeal of the game and dual spec would give you one less reason to play again.

[Lantyssa]

I'd think having to do a story you've already done in a game with eight stories is sufficient reason to not make people do it again.  Also limited character slots.

[Fordel]

Not anymore! SLOTS FOR DAYS 

[Raguel]

Speaking of ability bloat: I'm thinking about getting a gaming mouse for the first time ever. Anyone pvp w/o one? (Cuz that's the only reason I'm considering one; right now I use keyboard + left-clicking to get to my abilities but I'm assuming in pvp only n00bs use the mouse that way. )