Item Modifying and You: End-Game Gear Change

[Merusk]

I assume it mimics WoW

..."Of B.C. Era."

Because I'll put money down that it doesn't mimic the current per-boss lockout scheme or the WOTLK addition of rolling-over a lockout to continue it the next week.

[tmp]

Dunno... even LoTRO had the per-boss locks like year+ ago iirc? So it's not that impossible they'd have them too.

Of course, LoTRO also had the appearance tab, so...

[Pezzle]

I do not understand the thought process with this raid level loot.  Instead of fixing the distribution at end game they have to change an unbroken system?  

Here are a couple of ideas.  Have the gear drop with no mods and distribute the various mods through end bosses to ensure your content is consumed.  Have the gear come with some small static bonus (and full available mod slots) to entice players into wearing your ass ugly endgame stuff.  

[Sky]

How would you feel if the drummer were doing that in the middle of a practice session or gig? 

Guess why I don't play in a band anymore, and now play solo classical guitar with the occasional PUG for a half-hour blues set at an open mic?  I can do this all day! 

[Merusk]

Ah so you're the problem then.  Get some ADD meds! 

[01101010]

Ah so you're the problem then.  Get some ADD meds! 

I am getting a shipment of Spice at some point in the game even if it kills me.

[eldaec]

I assume it mimics WoW

Which does what?

[Pezzle]

Ah so you're the problem then.  Get some ADD meds! 

I am getting a shipment of Spice at some point in the game even if it kills me.

You can, kind of.

[eldaec]

How would you feel if the drummer were doing that in the middle of a practice session or gig? 

Guess why I don't play in a band anymore, and now play solo classical guitar with the occasional PUG for a half-hour blues set at an open mic?  I can do this all day! 

You were in a band where the drummer would arbitrarily stop to eat wings? I mean, sure, drummers... but even so...

[tmp]

Which does what?

http://www.wowpedia.org/Raid_lockout

tl;dr: if you kill a foozle and leave the dungeon, the foozle stays dead when you return until the dungeon resets which happens every X days. You aren't forced to re-visit with the exact same group.

[Bunk]

Ah so you're the problem then.  Get some ADD meds! 

I am getting a shipment of Spice at some point in the game even if it kills me.

You can, kind of.

Spice is illegal, therefore you would need to get it smuggled.

Wait a minute. Are you sort of suggesting that a Smuggler in this game actually gets to smuggle something?!? In a Star Wars game? 

[Merusk]

Which does what?

http://www.wowpedia.org/Raid_lockout

tl;dr: if you kill a foozle and leave the dungeon, the foozle stays dead when you return until the dungeon resets which happens every X days. You aren't forced to re-visit with the exact same group.

Well, it's a little more complex than that but that's good shorthand.

To answer the next question:  Which bosses are dead or not was determined by the raid leader.  

We're also assuming that they've gone ahead and fixed the Raid-ID-Theft exploit that Vanilla WoW had, allowing said exploiters to kill end-level bosses more than once per lockout period.

[Amaron]

Because I'll put money down that it doesn't mimic the current per-boss lockout scheme or the WOTLK addition of rolling-over a lockout to continue it the next week.

They have said at least that you can join another raid instance if it has all the bosses you've killed down already.    No idea if it has WoW's crappy restriction to normal mode on that idea.   Trying to find where I read that but this was in the current patch notes:

- The Operations lockout window now displays the current boss lockouts for your group members.

[eldaec]

Which does what?

http://www.wowpedia.org/Raid_lockout

tl;dr: if you kill a foozle and leave the dungeon, the foozle stays dead when you return until the dungeon resets which happens every X days. You aren't forced to re-visit with the exact same group.

Well, it's a little more complex than that but that's good shorthand.

To answer the next question:  Which bosses are dead or not was determined by the raid leader.  

We're also assuming that they've gone ahead and fixed the Raid-ID-Theft exploit that Vanilla WoW had, allowing said exploiters to kill end-level bosses more than once per lockout period.

Why would it not reset everything once the last boss is dead regardless?

Not that I would want to go there, but I gather mindless repetition gives some people a hard-on?

[Merusk]

Because DIKU endgame is all about gating the content so your hardcore don't totally burn themselves out AND so they don't blow through and gear up in the most elite gear within a week (if not a few days) then whine that there's nothing else to do.   They're too stupid to pace themselves so the devs have to.

As always, the squeaky wheel gets the grease and people with that kind of time to burn can be very vocal in very embarrassing ways.   Surely you've witnessed the same in EvE.

[tmp]

Not that I would want to go there, but I gather mindless repetition gives some people a hard-on?

Well, "mindless repetition" is at the MMO core, so... yes. Yes it does.

[Fabricated]

As for armor animation; I haven't messed with many of the Jedi/Sith robes, but for some reason a nice chestpiece I picked up for my trooper during the beta gave him an ass-skirt for some reason. It was either really well animated or physically simulated because it definitely didn't do that weird "transforming tube" thing someone mentioned that like 90% of games with robes/etc do.

[eldaec]

 Surely you've witnessed the same in EvE.

The people in eve who want to mindlessly repeat missions/mining/whatever do so and we just let them get on with it.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[Draegan]

There is plenty of things you can do on a repeated basis.  However Hardmode flashpoints and operations have limits to them so you can artificially throttle character progression.  If you follow the standard DIKU model of the last 7+ years, then raids are your major content item.  You want them to last the average raider months and not weeks.

The only EVE analogy that I can think of is if players were allowed to research, gain skill, gather and build a top end POS or Ship in the space of a few weeks.

[eldaec]

The only time enforced limitation in there is skill gain, and only if you choose to gain skill by training a character rather than buying one.

If you wanted to poopsock the market instead, nothing stops you.

I'm not pretending to understand the mind of a dikumud raider so I'm not saying you are wrong (except in the EVE analogy) - just that raiders are strange people.

[eldaec]

As for armor animation; I haven't messed with many of the Jedi/Sith robes, but for some reason a nice chestpiece I picked up for my trooper during the beta gave him an ass-skirt for some reason. It was either really well animated or physically simulated because it definitely didn't do that weird "transforming tube" thing someone mentioned that like 90% of games with robes/etc do.

From the videos it seems everything except the long skirts animates well enough.

Terrible skirt animation:

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes/sith-inquisitor
http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/sith-inquisitor

[tmp]

for some reason a nice chestpiece I picked up for my trooper during the beta gave him an ass-skirt for some reason. It was either really well animated or physically simulated because it definitely didn't do that weird "transforming tube" thing someone mentioned that like 90% of games with robes/etc do.

The ass skirts definitely feel like cloth simulation, even on the robes. They're the one part that looks right to me. (and also contributes to the for the tube parts, by contrast)

edit: That said, the inquisitor is so campy that dress actually fits her, somehow, and adds to the effect.

Unlimited.. power!

[Merusk]

I'm not pretending to understand the mind of a dikumud raider so I'm not saying you are wrong (except in the EVE analogy) - just that raiders are strange people.

They don't understand sitting around at a gatecamp shooting POSes for hours any more than you understand raiding, so it's a mutual view you hold of the "other."

[Draegan]

The only time enforced limitation in there is skill gain, and only if you choose to gain skill by training a character rather than buying one.

If you wanted to poopsock the market instead, nothing stops you.

I'm not pretending to understand the mind of a dikumud raider so I'm not saying you are wrong (except in the EVE analogy) - just that raiders are strange people.

Doesn't it take a long time to build a Titan or whatever the biggest ships are?  Doesn't it take years or someshit to be able to fly one adequately?  Same thing here.

[tmp]

The people in eve who want to mindlessly repeat missions/mining/whatever do so and we just let them get on with it.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

The deadspace complexes don't reset as soon as you kill the final target, do they? Could swear they didn't when i played but that was quite few years back.

[Ingmar]

I'm not sure EVE even has an equivalent to raiding, just an equivalent to dungeons. (Which are not on the long lockouts described.)

[tmp]

The lockouts were shorter, but it's combined with no instancing, meaning you compete with rest of the playerbase for the access. Imagine it was the weekly lockout and that only one person/group was allowed to do that content per week...

(why yes, some MMOs did try that, too 

[eldaec]

I'm not sure EVE even has an equivalent to raiding, just an equivalent to dungeons. (Which are not on the long lockouts described.)

The closest would probably be wormholes, you go into uncharted space with a bunch of ships, put up a POS, and stay as long as you like with group only PvE/mining all around.

Oh and surprise PvP if anyone ever finds you and probes you out.

[Nevermore]

I'm not sure EVE even has an equivalent to raiding, just an equivalent to dungeons. (Which are not on the long lockouts described.)

The closest would probably be wormholes, you go into uncharted space with a bunch of ships, put up a POS, and stay as long as you like with group only PvE/mining all around.

Oh and surprise PvP if anyone ever finds you and probes you out.

What about Incursions?

[eldaec]

Incursions start with instances that take 6 minutes each. Once enough of them are dead another instance that takes about 20 minutes spawns, following which everyone goes home for tea and medals.

Incursions are PQs.

[eldaec]

Talking of which, I assume SWTOR doesn't have PQs?

[luckton]

Incursions start with instances that take 6 minutes each. Once enough of them are dead another instance that takes about 20 minutes spawns, following which everyone goes home for tea and medals.

Incursions are PQs.

*blinks* Incursions?  Why have I not heard this discussed before?

[01101010]

Talking of which, I assume SWTOR doesn't have PQs?

Sadly, no.

[eldaec]

The people in eve who want to mindlessly repeat missions/mining/whatever do so and we just let them get on with it.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

The deadspace complexes don't reset as soon as you kill the final target, do they? Could swear they didn't when i played but that was quite few years back.

They reset pretty quickly, but could appear anywhere in the constellation. Part of the thing with deadspace pockets is finding them in a prober.

They also have more in common with an EQ LDoN style dungeon than an actual raid.

[Evildrider]

And here's what they have to say about match color to chest:

Few of our systems seem to have generated as much passion as our 'Unify Color to Chest Piece' system. So, I'd like to shed a bit of light onto exactly what this system is, what happened to it and what is in store for it in the future.

Pretty much from the start of the project, one of our goals was to solve the 'mismatched color' issue that exists in many MMORPGs. This initiative has actually been driven directly by James Ohlen, our Game Director, as this is an issue close to his heart.

Now, it is useful to understand that when artists create a new piece of armor, they always create it as part of a set. A certain pair of pants, for example, is thematically meant to go with a specific chest armor, gloves, boots, bracers and helmet. If the players always put on full sets, they would look very good indeed and the colors from the different pieces would complement each other. Of course, at any given level, players have access to many such sets and wear bits and pieces from multiple sources. Now, in Star Wars: The Old Republic, we have created sets that, in many cases, are quite compatible with each other. You'll notice that, for example, Jedi Knight outfits use a lot of earthy colors that work quite well together regardless of which set they come from. Unfortunately, this is not always true – the Trooper is a good example of a class that does not look its best with mismatched pieces.

To solve this we created an option called 'Unify color to chest piece', which we also called 'Color Match'. Once turned on, the option automatically matched the color of any equipped piece of armor to the color scheme of the chest piece. This option was very popular with our testers and did solve the color clash problem, but not without introducing some issues.

While we have a policy not to give details on a system in progress, I do want to talk a little about the worst design issue we encountered with this system. As implemented, Color Match had a subtle but ultimately perverse effect: from the moment it was turned on, the player would perceive far less diversity in their loot. In some cases, to be honest, there are only so many differences we can create between two pairs of boots apart from their color scheme. Take away their color differences - thanks to the Color Match system - and you are left with a game that feels a bit less rewarding; where, sometimes, putting on your exciting new gear barely changes the appearance of the character. Depending on your personal preferences and your play style, this may or may not seem like much... but an MMO is a complex system of challenges and rewards and, as designers, we must stay vigilant in that regard.

So, anyway, the good news is that we are not only committed to solving the color clashing problem, we want to actually improve on the Color Matching system players experienced during Game Testing.

The bad news is... well, this won't be in for launch. The system we are currently working on isn't quite done yet and has many dependencies. After taking a hard look, we decided it would be preferable to keep Color Matching turned off for launch rather than try to do a potentially messy post-launch conversion. If anything, the live changes we made during testing to other systems (like the cover system or the item modification system) have shown us how confusing switching things under people's noses can be.

This wasn't exactly an easy decision – we know how popular the feature is and how eager and vocal the community has been for its return. So, I humbly ask for your patience. The feature (or, to be exact, something I consider a better version of the feature) will return. The next time you find a particularly bad combination of armor pieces, take some screenshots - and hopefully in a few months (as always, no deadline is guaranteed), you’ll be able to tell new players "Back in my day, we had to wear those orange pants with purple boots! Uphill! Both ways! In the snow!"

As always, I’m very interested in hearing from you... I have (so far) managed to read every single post on the Item Modification system and will hopefully be able to post a follow up clarifying many of the concerns and questions that you have.