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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Star Wars: The Old Republic  |  Topic: Good, Bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Trooper/BH Mechanics] 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Good, Bad, I'm the guy with the gun. [Trooper/BH Mechanics]  (Read 20935 times)
Fordel
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on: December 01, 2011, 12:45:30 AM

You've chosen to play a Trooper (or Bounty Hunter), congratulations! You've made the correct choice.



Rule Number One: Manage your fucking Heat/Ammo.

I'm going to reference AMMO numbers here for the Trooper, but everything here also applies to the Bounty Hunters HEAT bar, just in reverse. The actual numbers/costs of abilities are the same percentage of the resource bar on either end, merely the direction changes.

I can not count how many people do not GET the resource mechanic for Troopers/BH. It is not a mana bar NOR is it a energy bar... do not play this class the way you would play a WoW Rogue or whatever. Your resource bar has VARIABLE regeneration. The MORE resource you have available, the FASTER it regenerates. Outside of very specific burn/burst situations, mostly in PVP, you pretty much never ever want a empty resource bar. Here is an example AMMO bar (I will get you the EXACT numbers on the regen rate once the servers are back up but they aren't really important) :

Quote
============ [>>>>]
This is a very happy AMMO Bar, it is full of resources to spend with maximum regeneration. The = represent each pip of ammo. The > represent the current regen rate.


Quote
==                          [>       ]
This is a very SAD AMMO Bar, it is nearly empty and will take a looong ass time to regenerate without the use of a valuable ammo regen cooldown! Your bar should almost NEVER LOOK LIKE THIS!


Roughly every 3rd of your resource bar, you lose an > of regen. Four is ideal, Three isn't the end of the world, Two better be for a good cause in a PvP match and One is a tragic tragic thing. You'll spend more AMMO and do more Damage if you keep your AMMO bar near full and throttle your special attacks. You primarily do this by interchanging your special attacks with your basic attack, which costs no resources. All Trooper/BH specs work with this resource system and they all follow this same basic general rule. You use special attacks until you take off that first 3rd of your bar, then you use your basics as that first 3rd regens. Rinse and Repeat for all time.

It can get a little more involved for each specific spec mind you, like a Tanking Trooper/BH get's bonus ammo every time they successfully proc a shield chance with a 6 second cooldown on the return. They also get a close range special attack that instead of costing ammo, grants ammo instead, on a 15 second cooldown. All specs seem to get some kind of 'and here is some bonus ammo' mechanic that suits their specific job/role.

It's a constant mini game of spending enough resources so you never actually have a full bar and "waste" regen, but not so many resources that you lose regen speed either. It takes a little bit to get used too, but nothing really taxing. You'll figure it out, it's not that hard. If you are REALLY having issues, I recommend just keeping a 2 basic to 1 special 'rotation' until you get the feel for it.

Special Attack, Basic Attack, Basic Attack - Repeat. Just keep weaving that basic attack into your button mashing and eventually you'll get the feel for the system and will be able to ride it tighter.





and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Amaron
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Reply #1 on: December 01, 2011, 01:06:10 AM

I can not count how many people do not GET the resource mechanic for Troopers/BH.

I'll admit I got my BH to 25 and I didn't know about the regen differences.    They seriously need to point that out in a tip window or something.   It doesn't seem like something you'd learn while leveling since heat management isn't a problem on normal mobs.
Fordel
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Reply #2 on: December 01, 2011, 01:12:17 AM

They mention it on the load screen tips that no one reads. They also show the regen rate on the bar itself, which no one pays attention too.  why so serious?


The Smuggler/IA energy bar works in a very similar fashion btw, but I can't say if it is exactly the same or not off hand.



and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Furiously
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Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 01:19:04 AM

Or just spam away and hope you kill them before you overload on heat! Or run out of ammo as the case may be.

DraconianOne
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Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 02:22:23 AM

General question, more out of curiosity as I planned on speccing Vanguard, but what's healing with a Trooper like and any idea how it compares with other healing specs (Scoundrel, Sage)?

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Fordel
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Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 02:35:06 AM

I don't have any first hand experience with the healing half of the Trooper, but the general consensus is 'sort of weird'. You still play the same resource mini-game as a healer, but the requirements for healing can be wildly different then DPS or Tanking. If someone needs a heal right now, then you gotta toss it out right now.

I WANT to say the healing tree gives much better 'on demand' instant regen of resources, but again, I have no first hand experience in that regard.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Zetor
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Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 02:43:40 AM

There are a few youtube vids where all 3 commando / mercenary specs are explained pretty well. I posted them around page 3xx of the SWTOR thread, will try to find them again  awesome, for real

edit:
"healing bullets" spec http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-RPPNujdxg
"spam that missile" spec http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b7LesO6DLo
"burn stuff" spec (really hard to understand what he's saying sometimes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLpXrmecvzc

eldaec
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Reply #7 on: December 01, 2011, 04:38:50 AM

On paper it looks like sage does burst healing, scoundrel has sustained healing, and commando has a bias toward aoe, HoT and ward/shield healing.

Seriously looking at mercenary for my empire heal guy.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Amaron
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Reply #8 on: December 01, 2011, 04:41:45 AM

I feel like Death From Above is going to get the most nerf bitching.    The AOE size is over the top and the damage is pretty sick.   Either way Merc was definitely the easiest class I played.
eldaec
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Reply #9 on: December 01, 2011, 04:46:48 AM

What is the in game explanation for ammo regen?

Heat you can just say 'lol nobody understands thermodynamics' and all is good.


But why does star wars have bullets that breed?

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"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Jherad
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Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 04:52:32 AM

All the AoEs for BH seemed to do considerably more damage per target than a single target attack. Death from above in particular would automatically kill an entire group of normal mobs whilst locking them down with knockdowns - even one round of sweeping blasters would kill all normal mobs, and that is spammable. I wouldn't be surprised if those get tweaked a little.
Cyrrex
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Reply #11 on: December 01, 2011, 05:11:32 AM

I am all for overpowered abilities that make it possible to crush mobs.  No nerfs!

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Fordel
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Reply #12 on: December 01, 2011, 05:15:11 AM

Death from Above (Mortal Volley on Troopers) does not scale at the same rate as mob HP. It stops wiping out trash mobs pretty quickly. At level 50, I'm lucky if it brings a pack of trash mobs down to half health.

You have to keep in mind dungeons send packs of Silver/Gold elites at you, where DFA is just a really solid opening move for a Tank to gain threat, little more.


Most of the AE's do in fact do more single target damage then the other attacks, which is why they mostly all have longer cooldowns.




Troopers aren't shooting bullets, but bolts of supercharged ionized gas or something. You're reloading the energy cells and the regen rate can be explained away as a recharge of the capacitor.  Ohhhhh, I see.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Merusk
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Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 05:52:12 AM

What is the in game explanation for ammo regen?

Heat you can just say 'lol nobody understands thermodynamics' and all is good.


But why does star wars have bullets that breed?

There isn't an in-game explanation for it.   Hell, they don't even introduce and explain the resource system itself, you're just left to figure it out.  Fordel's got a handle on how I imagine they would explain it if they cared to.

DFA seems more useful than Mortal Volley, to me.   BHs seem like they'll be using rocket punch a lot (based on talents) and DFA is a charge isn't it?  I had problems with MV because mobs would close on me and/or wander out of the target area.

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cironian
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Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 06:05:25 AM

I had problems with MV because mobs would close on me and/or wander out of the target area.

Normal mobs always got knocked down for me before they could react. For higher-ranked mobs I guess you'd wait until they are occupied with the tank or something.
Merusk
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Reply #15 on: December 01, 2011, 06:16:12 AM

Um...

I AM the tank.

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kaid
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Reply #16 on: December 01, 2011, 08:14:42 AM

They mention it on the load screen tips that no one reads. They also show the regen rate on the bar itself, which no one pays attention too.  why so serious?


The Smuggler/IA energy bar works in a very similar fashion btw, but I can't say if it is exactly the same or not off hand.




The smuggler/ia seems more like an energy bar it has some similarities but seems overall more consistent in how fast the resources regen. Then again at low levels its damn near impossible to spend your way through the smuggler resource bar with the powers you have. The cool downs and cast times prevent really going out of your resource. The trooper can ripple fire enough stuff even at low levels where they can run their resource bar way down.
Sky
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Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 11:01:08 AM

On paper it looks like sage does burst healing, scoundrel has sustained healing, and commando has a bias toward aoe, HoT and ward/shield healing.

Seriously looking at mercenary for my empire heal guy.
My plan was a commando medic, since I'm planning on a powertech tank.

Fordel
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Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 02:28:07 PM

DFA seems more useful than Mortal Volley, to me.   BHs seem like they'll be using rocket punch a lot (based on talents) and DFA is a charge isn't it?  I had problems with MV because mobs would close on me and/or wander out of the target area.


DFA and Morta Volley are the exact same spell mechanically. Minute long reuse, large AE damage and knockdown on trash mobs.

Rocket Punch and StockStrike are the exact same spell, and yes, tanking BH/Troopers use it extensively.

Tanking Troopers and BH get Storm/Rocket Charge, which is a simple gap closer.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 02:31:08 PM

MORTAR volley is pretty insanely powerful when you first get it, yes. I was wiping out entire trash packs with it on the Esseles flashpoint. The cooldown is quite long in practice, at least - I couldn't use it every pull.

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Merusk
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Reply #20 on: December 01, 2011, 02:35:56 PM

DFA seems more useful than Mortal Volley, to me.   BHs seem like they'll be using rocket punch a lot (based on talents) and DFA is a charge isn't it?  I had problems with MV because mobs would close on me and/or wander out of the target area.


DFA and Morta Volley are the exact same spell mechanically. Minute long reuse, large AE damage and knockdown on trash mobs.

Rocket Punch and StockStrike are the exact same spell, and yes, tanking BH/Troopers use it extensively.

Tanking Troopers and BH get Storm/Rocket Charge, which is a simple gap closer.

Ah.  I'd seen vids with a BH jumping in and thought that was DFA. I take it that's Rocket Charge then?

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Fordel
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Reply #21 on: December 01, 2011, 02:54:21 PM

Yes, Rocket Charge is the big leap into the fray.


Death from Above is the Rocket Straight up and rain down missile blasts.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Sky
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Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 03:02:24 PM

I was reading a bit about the reliance of powertechs on rocket punch. Doesn't seem very 'ranged tank' to have a melee ability be your bread+butter.

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Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 03:05:10 PM

They're not really ranged tanks. Popular misconception. Their tanky stuff is all close range for the most part.

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Lucas
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Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 03:26:01 PM

MORTAR volley is pretty insanely powerful when you first get it, yes. I was wiping out entire trash packs with it on the Esseles flashpoint. The cooldown is quite long in practice, at least - I couldn't use it every pull.

In the Esseles flashpoint, I also loved the "Pulse Cannon" (was that it?) ability: trash droids went down spectacularly while my Jedi Knight partner was just staring at me in awe  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? DRILLING AND MANLINESS

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Fordel
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Reply #25 on: December 01, 2011, 03:41:18 PM

Pulse Cannon is a 10 meter, Cone shaped Area attack on a 15-18 second reuse depending on talents. It's one of your primary threat generating tools as a Tank, both single and multi target.

The BH Equivalent is Flame Thrower.




Ranged Tanking isn't really, but there is a lot more wiggle room while tanking when compared to the force using tanks. There is very little mitigation that is actually dependent on us being in range, its mostly a threat issue if you try to stay out of the 10 meter zone. A good example was this boss mob that would regularly channel this knockback field on melee. Super fucking annoying, until I realized the field only extended out like 5 yards and I could happily sit at 10 and still put out almost all of my threat and mitigation.  Ohhhhh, I see.


Even just collecting adds and shit, tap tap tap with your long range attacks and back to business, no running around required. The best part is you actually have the tools to keep things in your range ANYWAYS, so even if you don't "need" to chase something, you are fully capable of running it down, or dragging it back to you.


Hell you should see the nonsense I can do to melee only mobs keeping them outside of melee range but inside 10 meters  why so serious?



But yea, if you CAN keep aggro at 30 meters, you can totally just sit at that range and stay there. You probably can't if your DPS'ers are on the ball mind you.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Numtini
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Reply #26 on: December 02, 2011, 05:30:27 AM

Is there any threat mechanic or specific attacks or is it just that attacks in general generate threat? Ie, we had two tanks in BT and the sith decided he was tank -- is there a way to avoid pulling aggro off him?

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Reply #27 on: December 02, 2011, 05:44:32 AM

I haven't seen any specific attacks that cause high threat, beyond doing a lot of damage.  There are stances and toggles that make you put out X% more or less for all attacks.

The guard power I got last night causes the target to produce 25% less threat, so I can actually manage someone else's threat a little.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
01101010
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Reply #28 on: December 02, 2011, 05:50:46 AM

Is there any threat mechanic or specific attacks or is it just that attacks in general generate threat? Ie, we had two tanks in BT and the sith decided he was tank -- is there a way to avoid pulling aggro off him?

In short, no. Not in BT. And for the most part, threat becomes a bit more manageable in HS, but not by much. The third dungeon, AL-something-or-other-eissa, is when tanks start coming into their own.

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Fordel
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Reply #29 on: December 02, 2011, 02:15:13 PM

Trooper/BH Tanks just have their tanking stance for threat. Just pick a different stance when you don't want to pull aggro.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #30 on: December 02, 2011, 11:39:43 PM

Why is the BH ship so ugly!

Fordel
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Reply #31 on: December 03, 2011, 12:09:15 AM

Would you prefer the Trooper ship?  Ohhhhh, I see.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Furiously
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Reply #32 on: December 03, 2011, 12:22:41 AM

It looks better than the BH one...

Tannhauser
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Reply #33 on: December 03, 2011, 09:18:36 AM

Boba Fett's ship was ugly so there is your precedent.
Furiously
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Reply #34 on: December 03, 2011, 11:37:36 AM

If by ugly you mean awesome then I agree.

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