Ideas on how to deal with messed-up (by Cyanide) games

[Falconeer]

Here's a proposal for Season #6 we could work on. How manageabe do you all think it is to MAKE SURE that when a game has to be restarted both teams make sure to set the pieces to what they were before the restart?

Including leaving out the players that were out and so on. And recreating the situation on the field based on a screenshot one of the two players can take right before quitting the fucked up game. What do you think?

By the way, point of this thread is to come up with other possible solutions and ideas. So go wild please.

[HaemishM]

While I applaud the idea, I think that would be a clusterfuck and a half.

[Kail]

Here's a proposal for Season #6 we could work on. How manageabe do you all think it is to MAKE SURE that when a game has to be restarted both teams make sure to set the pieces to what they were before the restart?

Including leaving out the players that were out and so on. And recreating the situation on the field based on a screenshot one of the two players can take right before quitting the fucked up game. What do you think?

By the way, point of this thread is to come up with other possible solutions and ideas. So go wild please.

Sounds good, in theory, and I don't think anyone here is likely to abuse it.  I've been doing movies of my games for this kind of reason, to have a record of them if the game derps out halfway through. 

My main concern is that the game doesn't always allow this kind of freedom on startup.  If you make a tricky pass to a reciever in the enemy half on turn 7, for example, and then the game farts, where do you start up again?  I can't start the game up on turn 7, I can't start the game with a guy in the enemy half, I can't start the game with the ball in the hands of one of my players, I can't start the drive with less than eleven players on the pitch.  Things like who's getting SPP, who's KOed/dead, how many rerolls have been burned, is going to be difficult to recreate even if both players are working together.  With me playing goblins, especially, a lot of my play revolves around one or two die rolls which can either destroy the enemy team or my own, and I don't know how you'd simulate that with the game as it currently stands.

The best thing I can think of is coming to some kind of consensus that if the game crashed on turn 4 or so, you'd spend the first three turns not throwing any tackles or rolling dice and just trying to get people into position, but even then there's going to be some issues with elves (or similar) making two turn TDs needing to roll dice to make them.  And even then there'd be so much handwaving ("these three guys in the back field are not supposed to be here, but we can't start the game without eleven on field, so just pretend they're not there") that it would be tough to get to work within the 2:00 time limit.

Also, I'm getting an error where I can't choose who I field, the game just doesn't display my bench so I can't select players who are off the field.  So I personally wouldn't be able to get this to work, but then, as goblins, it doesn't really matter for me so much.

I do think there should be something we can do for these games (maybe if they last past the first half and then crash, we just play one half the second time and add the scores together or something?) but I don't know that we can really pull off this kind of thing in the game as it's currently programmed.

TL;DR: what Haemish said.

[Ingmar]

I would hope we don't have anyone who would fake a DC or whatever to get out of a bad situation. I'd rather just stay on the honor system and start over without any special conditions.

[eldaec]

This would be the most complicated rule to implement in the history of sport since the Duckworth Lewis method. Honestly I don't think we need it.

If people are really keen I'd at least limit it to recreating the score, turn number, and who has the possession of the football.

[Falconeer]

The best thing I can think of is coming to some kind of consensus that if the game crashed on turn 4 or so, you'd spend the first three turns not throwing any tackles or rolling dice and just trying to get people into position

This is exactly what I had in mind. Also, just doing that would steal less time, overall, than if you played the whole game from scratch.

We never needed it, that's true, but honestly I totally feel too bad for things like the one that happened to Ice Cream Emperor in his last game. Blood Bowl can be unnerving enough. To be fooled like that by bugs can really, really drain your will to play. And the last thing we need are players quitting the game due to stupid bugs.

[proudft]

I would have only a very vague idea where my people were after a 10-minute crash and restart extravaganza.  Do you people have photographic memories or something?

[HaemishM]

If it happens turn 1 or 2, it might be doable. But if it happens in the second half, forget about it. The game doesn't give you enough information easily enough for two people to try to recreate circumstances from memory or screenshots, and it doesn't let you duplicate your dice rolls. This would be a nightmare. I've lost good starts to the disconnects and gotten fucked by the dice in the replay. But I can't see any workable way to unfuck Cyanide's shitty programming.

[Sjofn]

This seems like something that we just have to go "whelp" about.

[Sir T]

Totally impossible. The game does not let you enter dice results, and without that nothing can be replicated, from injury rolls to weather to even kickoff scatter dice. So there is no way to replicate a situation.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

This seems like something that we just have to go "whelp" about.

Yeah, as aggrieved as I may feel about this sort of thing, I have to agree it would be fairly difficult to implement. Not as impossible as others think, but still probably just over the top.

And I mean, as frustrating as it is to have a reset undo your good fortune/good play, it's not like that somehow increases the odds of a disaster on the replay -- it just makes a disaster taste like ash, instead of like the usual Nuffling.

That said, in my last game, even having the same kick-off result would have been a huge benefit, since so much of my getting screwed in the replay was because I didn't get to receive the second time.

[Falconeer]

That's ok, I'll stick with the majority. But maybe i have been unable to express my idea.

Here it is:

Given a screenshot of the moment the game fucked up (and that should be very easy to get, since it usually fucks up for one player, the other has time to take the screenshot) all you have to do is:

1) Put the players you had on the field at the moment of the crush in any position on the pitch. Leave the ones that were not on the pitch due to KO os CAS or any other reason out. If you can't leave them out, just position them in a far away useless corner of the pitch.

2) Use your movement allowances, on both sides, to re-position everything as it was at the moment of the crush. You don't have to throw tackles or block. Just spend the "free turn" before the one you were actually playing on to do the mutual repositioning.

3) Considering you have screenshots, replicating the positions on the field at the moment of the crash should be easy. As it would be easy to voluntarily leave certain players out of the pitch (the previously injured ones). Same with extra rerolls, count them as used.

4) If the crash happened, say, on turn 7, it will be even easier to do everything correctly. Repositioning could take up to three, maybe four turns, then you just keep clicking "done" after each other until the clock goes to the right turn. Alternatively a crush on turn 2 requires even less manouvering since the pieces are probably still kind of close to their starting positions.

You don't have to remember anything. A screenshot in BB tells you everything you need to know about every single piece, or am I wrong?

I am not saying this is a great solution, but at the moment seems much better then just having a very important game go to waste. Yes, most of the times we are good sports. But sometimes it just feels that bad and unfair. And once again let me stress that "repositioning" takes less time then replaying the whole game.

As I said, we don't have to do this so it's ok if we keep things the way they are. I just think some of the counter-arguments are simply wrong.
What I like of this idea is that what you basically try to do is to set up the board again after the cat jumped on the pitch and scattered all the pieces around the room. Most of the times you just call it a night and the game is over (after some cursing and blaspheming). But if it's an important match you still go on with the cursing part, but then you try to save the game, don't you?

[Falconeer]

That said, in my last game, even having the same kick-off result would have been a huge benefit, since so much of my getting screwed in the replay was because I didn't get to receive the second time.

I honestly believe that in the case of a crash-replay people should not change their starting lineups, and they should not take advantage of a different coin toss result. I think it's fair to at least try to recreate the starting conditions of the previous match, but maybe I am too obsessed with fairness.

[Sjofn]

Just such a gigantic pain in the ass all around, if you ask me. Honestly, if we decided to do that for Season 6, I'd probably not play, just because it's too much work.

I'm sure losing my team would be keenly felt.

[Celer]

Put me down for the "it's impossible" camp, with a side of "it's pointless anyway" due to the many many rolls that you just can't duplicate.  You can't re-create injuries (holding back your guys helps this game only), you may not be able to get the ball to the same player reliably (kicking it out of bounds could fail), you could get a new kickoff event or weather that prevents a precise reset, and if you have a bunch of players all in a scrum you may have to dodge them around each other just to get them into the proper place (which could fail and even result in injury).  Plus you're doing all this arranging by alt-tabbing away, looking at what pieces are where (hopefully you can tell them apart), and alt-tabbing back.  How many pieces can you do that with in your allotted 2 minutes?


I'd say the best you can hope for is to have the same inducements and have the same team kick off.  Anything that happens after that point is just too random to attempt to duplicate.  Personally, if I couldn't recreate everything to EXACTLY the same place, I'd rather just start over fresh.  Otherwise, the system can still be gamed (not that I think anyone here cares enough to game this particular system).

[lamaros]

Leave it as it is, that sounds like a whole lot more trouble than it would be worth.

[Llyse]

+1 It's sadly too much effort as frustrating as crashes/bugs are.

If it weren't so nice in the league with people gaming disconnects when losing etc it might be needed but thankfully not.

Luckily most of the time it works...

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Despite not thinking this is the best idea, I gotta agree with Falc that you guys seem to be vastly overestimating how difficult it would be to get something that is approximately the same as the previous position, and in the case of a mid- or late- game crash, vastly more fair even if it is not a perfect replica of the overall game. So far all the counter-arguments mostly seem to assume that it needs to be exactly the same to be fair; but obviously even an imperfect recreation is going to be more fair if one of the teams was significantly ahead.

Obviously stuff like SPP and injuries will be inexactly replicated, but things like 'which team is likely to win' will be much more easily maintained, which is kind of the crucial thing?

[luckton]

Maybe if Cyanide ever puts out a new version of the game they'll address such issues.

But until then, I'm in "It's a goddamn video game, get over it." crowd. 

[proudft]

Despite not thinking this is the best idea, I gotta agree with Falc that you guys seem to be vastly overestimating how difficult it would be to get something that is approximately the same as the previous position

Sounds like someone whose team can actually pick up the ball.  

[Ingmar]

Yep. It's one thing to recreate a board state with speedy agi 4 guys. It's another matter with slower, clumsier teams.

Even just trying to get the right turn and score in place might be rough for khemri etc.

[luckton]

Yep. It's one thing to recreate a board state with speedy agi 4 guys. It's another matter with slower, clumsier teams.

Or just plain clumsy, a la my 'flings who tripped up at least 5+ times, self-injuring themselves with at least one of them breaking his hand.   

[Ingmar]

I will say that if it's turn 13 and someone is up 3-0 or something, the right thing to do is not to force a replay, but just to ask Falc to assign a win. I did this for some game in More Eddie, I think against Lamaros. I kept crashing, it was obvious he was going to win at the state our last crash was (on something like turn 15), so I just conceded.

A crash in the first half though, you're never really going to be in a situation where the outcome is clear anyway. Just replay it.

[proudft]

I've been lucky, I guess - my only crashes (two of em, I think) have been at kickoff and one of them actually was not even registered on the Cyanide servers so we could just instantly replay it.  Fingers crossed for the future games!

[Strazos]

I'm in the "screw it" camp - if we cannot fully replicate a game state, don't bother. Especially with CASs and such, unless you propose that part of the restart is to let me bash the other players freely. Even then, if it's turn 2 it's be hard to replicate and I daresay a game state not worth all this hassle.

However, the idea of keeping the coin flip result the same I think I'd be OK with.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Even just trying to get the right turn and score in place might be rough for khemri etc.

100% academic here, but as someone mentioned kicking the ball out on purpose is going to make that a lot easier. If you kick to the front corner you have a little over a 5/8 chance of the ball going out, and all the rest of the time it will be right next to the dude who wants to pick it up. In the case of Khemri that dude has a 75% chance of picking it up every turn. So unless you need them to score in like 2-3 turns repeatedly (in which case -- crazy game you were playing!) you're probably just fine. I'd say a non-sure-hands team is a greater concern simply because you could be forced to burn through rerolls to get the pickup in time.

I mean literally the only thing you are doing in this scenario is:

1) get the teams that scored to score again, at least as fast as they scored the first time.
2) Once that is done, get the ball in the right place (or on the right player) and arrange the remaining pieces appropriately.

1) is going to be pretty easy unless every team was scoring in 2 turns nonstop all game to the point of the crash, in which case it's probably best to resolve to preserve the TD difference if preserving the total number of TDs proves unlikely. 2) Is also pretty easy, modified by how long 1) took obviously.

Honestly, the case of a ball on the ground is by far the most difficult scenario to account for, but even then you can throw the ball onto the ground in the same general area without too much trouble.

And also you can always revert to the last kickoff prior to the crash, as a much simpler method, since then you only have to deal with 1).

[Ingmar]

How do you decide if/when "KOed" players wake up?

[Strazos]

Injuries.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

How do you decide if/when "KOed" players wake up?

I dunno, sounds impossible. If only we had some way of getting some sort of number, between 1 and 6... some sort of object, maybe, intricately constructed -- some manner of... random number... generator? 

(I mean, if we're asking people to do all the rest of this on the honour system I don't think rolling a d6 is really gonna be the breaking point.)

[Sjofn]

I have zero interest in rolling my real life dice for blood bowl. I'd forfeit first. 

[Llyse]

I like the idea but the implementation requires both players to be happy and willing to try, I can see it working in a feeder league match (funnily enough this means both players are more likely to just replay)

but in the Serious business league replaying OR replicating will favour one or the other player and it sucks but losing participants to the league for this rule is too high a price to pay in the name of JUSTICE and CYANIDE Bugs

[Ice Cream Emperor]

I have zero interest in rolling my real life dice for blood bowl. I'd forfeit first. 

I guess the other person would have to make the roll? I mean, really?

[Kail]

Why even bother with the computer game at that point, then?  It would almost be faster to just get on Steam chat with Falc or something and have him ref a play-by-chat tabletop game, and use that for the results.  No mucking around with "pretend this guy is dead and you've spent two more rerolls than you really have," no worrying about the weather conditions not being the same or having to alt-tab back and forth trying to line your guys up with how they were before the crash.

Though it seems like enough of a hassle that I'm still in the "just reconnect and replay the whole thing" camp.

[Comstar]

I think the idea would never work. Just chalk up the game to some added coach experience and replay it.

[Falconeer]

Ok, proposition is vetoed with 2 votes for and plenty against.







Now I am thinking of something else. Update y'all soon.