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Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #35 on: October 07, 2011, 06:49:53 PM


Also, DLRiley's rhetorical stance in that post pretty much amounted to 'you aren't good enough at this game to know how anything can be changed.' This is pretty much the same rhetoric employed in games when somebody is acting like an idiot and when you point it out they are like 'you're 0/4 shut up you noob'. You don't need to be a professional athlete to understand how sports work, and you don't need to be the twitchiest badass to discuss FPS weapon balance. One of the premises of this entire board is presumably that the people here are allowed to have opinions about shit in which they have only an amateur interest.

Of course that doesn't directly affect the actual content of what he said, it just makes me want to ignore it, the same way I ignore 'l2p faggot' from the 12-2-4 carry whose skill at the game has zero impact on his ability to be a civil human being.
DLRiley
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Reply #36 on: October 07, 2011, 07:36:38 PM

Meh Im the same level as the people "too uskilled to have a valid opinion", and flash removal or nerf wouldnt effect play at all. Fact is im mostly raging at the short sightedness of the suggestions, which amounts to "i dont want to face x, so remove it ok thx".

The existance of baron is what makes the mid game exciting.
statisticalfool
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Reply #37 on: October 07, 2011, 08:23:32 PM

Do you even read this thread before posting? Go look back at this stuff. This isn't a whine thread. There is a lot of talk about flash. There's one person mentioning getting rid of runes. There's a few "buff these summoners".

And then almost every other thing is quality of life stuff.

And when you look at the Flash stuff it's not "wah wah, can't handle flash", it seems a lot more: why is the summoner spell system "choose flash and another" rather than "choose 2 spells." ? If flash can't be tweaked *at all* without the game just breaking in two or becoming much more passive, then fine. People have suggested making it an item. You could even just make it like blue pill, always there for everybody. Choose two other summoners.
Megrim
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Reply #38 on: October 07, 2011, 08:59:03 PM

I don't know if this actually addresses people's issues or not, because nobody's actually said why they see Flash as a problem.

 ->

Its no surprise really.  Almost every single competitive game I can think of highly values mobility because it has a very high skill ceiling.  There is a reason, for example, why TF2 leagues see pretty much only demomen, scouts and soldiers (in addition to medics for obvious reasons).  The same reasoning applies here, Flash gives you an edge in mobility over someone that doesn't have it, and keeps you even with someone who does.

ergo Flash is a problem.

Its a completely mindless get-out-of-jail free card which is available for free, 99% of the time (if you aren't silenced, or whatever. But this is also just about a non-issue because wards. Hence my ward rebalancing suggestions). To put things in perspective, DotA, which is an archetype for these kinds of tower-defence games, for a long time had the Blink Dagger as a purchaseable item with no restrictions on its use (beyond some trivial cooldown). This lead to whole teams, regardless of composition, mass buying it - because whoever could get more of them first would typically win most engagements. Eventually, with feedback from those same high-level teams, the item was changed to have some conditions imposed upon it, because everybody in short order realized that positional advantage is everything.

Which is why, when I wrote about rebalancing Flash I also wrote about every melee champ having a gap-closer: it blurs the line between ranged and melee, and turns every fight and skirmish into a giant center-o-the-screen clusterfuck, and it lowers the skillceiling for champion use. Amumu missed his bandage? Flash forward and ult anyway. Fiddle mistimed his Crowstorm? Flash, etc...

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Slayerik
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Reply #39 on: October 07, 2011, 09:57:29 PM

Just give everyone one or two flashes.

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ezrast
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Reply #40 on: October 07, 2011, 11:20:36 PM

I don't know if this actually addresses people's issues or not, because nobody's actually said why they see Flash as a problem.

 ->

Its no surprise really.  Almost every single competitive game I can think of highly values mobility because it has a very high skill ceiling.  There is a reason, for example, why TF2 leagues see pretty much only demomen, scouts and soldiers (in addition to medics for obvious reasons).  The same reasoning applies here, Flash gives you an edge in mobility over someone that doesn't have it, and keeps you even with someone who does.

ergo Flash is a problem.
That doesn't follow at all, unless you think that high skill ceilings are a bad thing. I'm also not sure how you think Flash can be used to "mindlessly" compensate for shitty positioning 99% of the time when it's up less than once every four minutes, and when it's usually better used to initiate or secure kills. I mean, you can use it to compensate, but you shouldn't - it raises the skill floor, not lowers the skill ceiling.

edit: raises, not lowers
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 12:40:14 PM by ezrast »
Megrim
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Reply #41 on: October 08, 2011, 07:56:00 AM

I probably wasn't clear enough. Basically it comes down to either everyone having equal mobility, ala Quake (and the ability to exploit it forms part of what differentiates player skill), or making above-the-norm mobility, such as a blink-type ability on a hero who does not normally have access to it, a resource to be measured and valued. As such, the ability to control this resource then forms part of a player's skill. Do I spend money on being able to kill harder, or do I make myself more mobile to be able to kill in a larger number of situations? Just think of how much there is in power differential between an Annie who has Flash, and one who doesn't. If the balance orients itself around Annie as-is, versus other heroes as-they-are, then the introduction of an ability which can wildly swing the power ratio in one direction - it has to cost something.

The problem then becomes even more complicated if you begin to introduce characters with in-built flash-like abilities, because their whole kit has to then be balanced around the fact that they possess mobility which other heroes do not. To give another simplistic example; think of Kog'Maw and his ability to dish out really big damage from a distance. But he is balanced, in part, by not having any (real) means of escape. If he is targeted by a character who has an in-build gap closer, Kog'Maw can Flash out... but the other guy can do the same to chase, putting Kog at a massive disadvantage because he simply cannot, mechanically, get away.

And, it is precisely mindless because you said it yourself; is my Flash up every x minutes? If Yes, then I can play like a retard because I have a freebie. I don't have to care about my own skill level, or this skill level of my opponents. I just press button. Sure, an Amumu might want to save his Flash for  initiating, but what about the aforementioned Kog? Does he just get to push his lane for free and rice it up because he doesn't need to initiate?

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #42 on: October 08, 2011, 08:06:19 AM

Side note, flash is basically worthless in dominion.

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Typhon
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Reply #43 on: October 08, 2011, 08:26:40 AM

He's actually not this time, not entirely. Most of the non-QoL suggestions in here are pretty bad; I only agree with 1) zoom out and 2) buff some of the shittier summoners.

In high-level games, if you gank someone and they get away with Flash, that is a successful gank because now they don't have Flash. Flash is what allows you to extend, initiate, and punish overextensions safely and effectively. It's a tool and a valuable resource, and knowing and managing what resources the enemy has at their disposal - which includes summoners, wards, jungle buffs, creeps, even teammates - is how high-level teams win games.

I don't know if this actually addresses people's issues or not, because nobody's actually said why they see Flash as a problem.

Disagree. Zoom out breaks the game and I'm not sure why.  I think it's because you lose connection with your character.  The game just seems much less exciting.  If you have played Demigod you'll know what I mean.
DLRiley
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Reply #44 on: October 08, 2011, 09:18:14 AM

I probably wasn't clear enough. Basically it comes down to either everyone having equal mobility, ala Quake (and the ability to exploit it forms part of what differentiates player skill), or making above-the-norm mobility, such as a blink-type ability on a hero who does not normally have access to it, a resource to be measured and valued. As such, the ability to control this resource then forms part of a player's skill. Do I spend money on being able to kill harder, or do I make myself more mobile to be able to kill in a larger number of situations? Just think of how much there is in power differential between an Annie who has Flash, and one who doesn't. If the balance orients itself around Annie as-is, versus other heroes as-they-are, then the introduction of an ability which can wildly swing the power ratio in one direction - it has to cost something.

The problem then becomes even more complicated if you begin to introduce characters with in-built flash-like abilities, because their whole kit has to then be balanced around the fact that they possess mobility which other heroes do not. To give another simplistic example; think of Kog'Maw and his ability to dish out really big damage from a distance. But he is balanced, in part, by not having any (real) means of escape. If he is targeted by a character who has an in-build gap closer, Kog'Maw can Flash out... but the other guy can do the same to chase, putting Kog at a massive disadvantage because he simply cannot, mechanically, get away.

And, it is precisely mindless because you said it yourself; is my Flash up every x minutes? If Yes, then I can play like a retard because I have a freebie. I don't have to care about my own skill level, or this skill level of my opponents. I just press button. Sure, an Amumu might want to save his Flash for  initiating, but what about the aforementioned Kog? Does he just get to push his lane for free and rice it up because he doesn't need to initiate?

Its like sinji got another account. Give us some examples of retarded play, i mean every pro game has 5 flashes to a side so that shouldn't be that hard.
Megrim
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Reply #45 on: October 08, 2011, 09:59:55 AM

Fuck off you twat.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #46 on: October 08, 2011, 10:11:45 AM

It's a LoL thread now  awesome, for real


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Megrim
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Reply #47 on: October 08, 2011, 11:06:54 AM

Good thing you're adding to the quality of the posts. I should just start spamming LOL I TROLL U image macros. I guess that will get the point across.

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ezrast
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Reply #48 on: October 08, 2011, 11:47:04 AM

I probably wasn't clear enough. Basically it comes down to either everyone having equal mobility, ala Quake (and the ability to exploit it forms part of what differentiates player skill), or making above-the-norm mobility, such as a blink-type ability on a hero who does not normally have access to it, a resource to be measured and valued. As such, the ability to control this resource then forms part of a player's skill. Do I spend money on being able to kill harder, or do I make myself more mobile to be able to kill in a larger number of situations? Just think of how much there is in power differential between an Annie who has Flash, and one who doesn't. If the balance orients itself around Annie as-is, versus other heroes as-they-are, then the introduction of an ability which can wildly swing the power ratio in one direction - it has to cost something.

(snip)

And, it is precisely mindless because you said it yourself; is my Flash up every x minutes? If Yes, then I can play like a retard because I have a freebie. I don't have to care about my own skill level, or this skill level of my opponents. I just press button. Sure, an Amumu might want to save his Flash for  initiating, but what about the aforementioned Kog? Does he just get to push his lane for free and rice it up because he doesn't need to initiate?
Ah, we don't think that differently then. My main point of contention is that Flash is a resource to be managed in and of itself, along with all the other things I mentioned that come back after X minutes. The Kog still has to be careful with it because as soon as he burns his Flash, the other team reports "Kog Flash down" and then he is target numero uno for the next four minutes and 15 seconds, anywhere he goes.
jakonovski
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Reply #49 on: October 08, 2011, 12:33:34 PM

How about giving alternatives to Flash? As it is many summoner spells are downright useless, and the good ones (except Flash) are rather specialized.

Margalis
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Reply #50 on: October 08, 2011, 01:46:20 PM

Yeah, I have no problem with Flash and I use it offensively as often as defensively. If there is a problem with it it's just that it's so much better than most other summoner spells.

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K9
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Reply #51 on: October 08, 2011, 04:28:59 PM

A summoner spell which revealed all enemy champions and NPC creeps for 5 seconds might be fun.

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Malakili
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Reply #52 on: October 08, 2011, 05:34:25 PM

A summoner spell which revealed all enemy champions and NPC creeps for 5 seconds might be fun.

This sounds pretty good.  Like others, I agree that the problem is less with Flash and more with a bunch of the others being so situational by comparison.  Give others than are more consistently useful and it wouldn't seem so powerful.
DLRiley
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Reply #53 on: October 08, 2011, 05:37:51 PM

Yeah, I have no problem with Flash and I use it offensively as often as defensively. If there is a problem with it it's just that it's so much better than most other summoner spells.

This.
statisticalfool
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Reply #54 on: October 08, 2011, 06:55:43 PM

I don't know, I still feel like Flash is the problem, not the other summoners.

Rally, Fortify: terribad.
Revive, Heal, Clarity: Clarity has a few specific uses, Revive has some weird niches. But mostly useless, need buffs
Cleanse: Needs buffs, although I think as little as: "cleanses suppression" might be enough.

Ignite: good enough early that lots of people take it: it could use a late game buff, but it's not a problem
Smite, CV, Exhaust, Teleport: working fine.
Ghost: I feel like if Flash were even a little bit worse, ghost would see more play. It feels fine to me.

Flash: too good

That looks like one OP, six about right, six wrong. Bringing other ones up to Flash's level: seems like a lot more work.

Just for funs, let me take a stab at reworking the bad ones: (probably bad ideas, but whatever)

Rally: Grant it an AD/AP/Move speed buff for flat. Double the health. Improved:  decreased cooldown, increase cast range by 1000.
Fortify: Decrease cooldown by 60 seconds. Increase bonus damage to minions to 3 (2?)xlvl.
Heal: 100 + (lvl x 40).
Clarity: When activated, gives 10% CDR for 30 seconds (halved to affected allies without improved)
Cleanse: cleanses suppression
Ignite: Improved: Your ignite lowers the MR of target by 15. When on cooldown, you gain 15 Ability Power.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 06:58:17 PM by tastyhat »
Typhon
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Reply #55 on: October 10, 2011, 07:46:40 AM

I think they should remove self-impacting combat centric summoner abilities altogether.

Leaving Fortify, Rally, Ghost (out-of-combat only), Teleport, Revive, and Clairvoyance

:) but that's just me
Megrim
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Reply #56 on: October 10, 2011, 07:58:18 AM

I probably wasn't clear enough. Basically it comes down to either everyone having equal mobility, ala Quake (and the ability to exploit it forms part of what differentiates player skill), or making above-the-norm mobility, such as a blink-type ability on a hero who does not normally have access to it, a resource to be measured and valued. As such, the ability to control this resource then forms part of a player's skill. Do I spend money on being able to kill harder, or do I make myself more mobile to be able to kill in a larger number of situations? Just think of how much there is in power differential between an Annie who has Flash, and one who doesn't. If the balance orients itself around Annie as-is, versus other heroes as-they-are, then the introduction of an ability which can wildly swing the power ratio in one direction - it has to cost something.

(snip)

And, it is precisely mindless because you said it yourself; is my Flash up every x minutes? If Yes, then I can play like a retard because I have a freebie. I don't have to care about my own skill level, or this skill level of my opponents. I just press button. Sure, an Amumu might want to save his Flash for  initiating, but what about the aforementioned Kog? Does he just get to push his lane for free and rice it up because he doesn't need to initiate?
Ah, we don't think that differently then. My main point of contention is that Flash is a resource to be managed in and of itself, along with all the other things I mentioned that come back after X minutes. The Kog still has to be careful with it because as soon as he burns his Flash, the other team reports "Kog Flash down" and then he is target numero uno for the next four minutes and 15 seconds, anywhere he goes.

Something like that, but I don't think an arbitrary timer is enough to balance something like that, nor does it make for compelling gameplay.

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Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #57 on: October 13, 2011, 09:35:02 PM

Better stats pages. It still blows my mind that my profile page will tell me exactly how many creeps I have killed in total, but not how many I average killing per game. Since it doesn't tell me how many games I've played either, I can't even do the math myself. It will tell me how many times I've won, but I cannot actually get my overall win-loss record. The match history extends about 10% of the length any reasonable person could expect.

My impression is these stats get somewhat better for ranked games, but really. There is so much low-hanging fruit here it is amazing. Average cs per game? Cross-account comparisons to composited 'average' players of the same ranking? Slicing data by champion? By role? It seems so obvious.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 02:51:59 AM by Ice Cream Emperor »
Furiously
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Reply #58 on: October 13, 2011, 10:27:52 PM

Clicks per second.

DLRiley
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Reply #59 on: October 14, 2011, 01:24:25 AM

A working pug system.
kaid
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Reply #60 on: October 14, 2011, 10:08:44 AM

Yeah, I have no problem with Flash and I use it offensively as often as defensively. If there is a problem with it it's just that it's so much better than most other summoner spells.

The biggest problem with flash is its so much better than all the options. When in tournaments 95% of people choose it as an option then its likely to strong or the other powers are to weak. If there were other viable options to picking flash for a summoner spell then you likely would not see the griping.

One interesting thing that I find odd is a lot less people seem to choose flash on dominion than they do on SR or TT.
tazelbain
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Reply #61 on: October 14, 2011, 10:14:11 AM

I think the issue is not just that is better than everything else hands down.  Its that it fundamental alters the balance of champs.  Even it was perfectly balanced, it still be required for champs.

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Kirth
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Reply #62 on: October 14, 2011, 10:35:25 AM

From watching a few tournament streams this is the current meta :

Everyone takes flash
jungler takes smite
bot lane support takes cv
solo top lane takes teleport
everyone else ignite

There may be some slight variations on the top lane/carries. Honestly if they gave flash to everyone or took it away you would prolly see more CV usage in SR.

and yes in dominion flash is terrible, ghost is the flash of dominion.
Typhon
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Reply #63 on: October 14, 2011, 10:37:18 AM

I think the issue is not just that is better than everything else hands down.  Its that it fundamental alters the balance of champs.  Even it was perfectly balanced, it still be required for champs.

I was just thinking this same thing.  The developers have even stated something like, 'if we removed flash we'd have to look at Champs like X'.  Champs should be balanced independently of summoner abilities.

Summoner abilities should be strategic/logistic, not tactical (e.g. I'll take Clarity on ChampX so that I can buy an AP item early on to try to get early kills.  or, I'll take Clairvoyance so I can mitigate the cost of some wards).  
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #64 on: October 14, 2011, 10:52:00 AM

Another option for competitive play is to simply limit the number of players who can use a given summoner ability. If each team only gets 2 or 3 Flash selections, etc. you might see players developping new/better ways to make use of the other abilities.

But really, as mentioned, it's just that mobility is king and Flash is a completely open-ended ability, skill-wise. Heal will only ever heal x amount, no matter how good you are, but Flash gets better and better as you become a better player, because it has so many applications.

It also leads to awesome individual plays, which has always seemed like a plus to me -- same as in DOTA, where certain blinks/'jukes' in competitive games were highlight-reel material. Escaping a 4-man gank with the perfect Flash is exactly what the game should be about, IMO -- and it's just as glorious when you're chasing someone and they flash across a gap, only to find out that your teammate is waiting on the other side to finish them off.

It would certainly be nice if they could come up with some other clutch summoner abilities, that would produce similar moments of play. Clairvoyance can have a similar effect, but not really on an individual scale, which is why teams tend to only need one person running it. It surprises me that things like Rally and Fortify are not part of the metagame, since for example in DOTA the ability to make a structure temporarily immune to damage is a significant aspect of most play. It seems like tweaking the numbers on these might bring them back into the game.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 10:53:55 AM by Ice Cream Emperor »
DLRiley
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Reply #65 on: October 14, 2011, 12:19:15 PM

I think you guys aren't addressing the fact that Summoners Rift is boring and Riot seemed to resign themselves to breaking SR with new champs that exploit various things you hate to fight against in SR. This is where the debate simply falls short, when the only reason to not sit at your tower and wait for the incoming creep waves is dragon and baron, than any suggestion that doesn't fuck with that issue is mute.

A long time ago, we had Heal, Promote, and Rally, which made taking flash more of an option than a must have. They were nerfed during a time when support was a lot stronger than it is now.
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Reply #66 on: October 14, 2011, 01:21:33 PM


A long time ago, we had Heal, Promote, and Rally, which made taking flash more of an option than a must have. They were nerfed during a time when support was a lot stronger than it is now.

I don't usually agree with you, but this line is dead-on. I don't think heal should be a bad choice (it is because of diminishing returns). If you face a heal team, a couple ignites and an Executioner's Calling on your AD would be a decent enough counter. Instead it's not even viable. I just like a little variance in my play, and I have become bored of the same champs in most games. Fuck Lee Sin, fuck Brand, Fuck Cait, Fuck Vayne, Fuck Singed, Fuck Morgana, Fuck Annie, Fuck GP, Fuck Akali. There are like 80 champs and basically every game I play has like 4-6 of the above. Zzzzzzz

I think mostly, I'm just a little burned out.

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Ashamanchill
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Reply #67 on: October 16, 2011, 12:20:03 AM

I hear ya boss. You know what's funny? This rank reset fucked me. I was much happier at low elo. There was actually different picks there, and sometimes zany strategies. I could even carry a game as Cho, or Galio. Being in an elo that actually uses the current meta, and sticks religiously to the accepted champions and their roles, has kinda burned me out for now.










Yeah, I'll be back.

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Reply #68 on: October 27, 2011, 03:56:55 PM

I'm not sure about summoner abilities, but the biggest problem I have with LoL besides the shitgobbling twats playing it is the fact that a disconnect can utterly fuck a team. Rasix and I duo'ed a game of SR a couple of nights ago. We stated our intentions in team select that we would do bot, and another pair of friends wanted top. So we told the Karthus to go mid. He starts pitching a bit of a fit and the Ashe volunteers to take mid. Get into the summoning screen, get all the way to spawn and the shitburglar disconnects, never to return. We spent the whole time trying to overcome a 4v5. At one point, Rasix and I were duoing bot (I was Ryze, he was Gangplank) against a trio of Rammus (who taunted me mercilessly into multiple deaths all game), and two others, I forget who. Even so, it still took around an hour to lose because it was a decent team.

I don't know how to fix the issue. Allow solo queue players to take the disco's place? I'm not even concerned with punishing the dick so much as making sure I don't spend 40 minutes fighting a foregone conclusion.

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Reply #69 on: October 27, 2011, 04:04:44 PM

> making sure I don't spend 40 minutes fighting a foregone conclusion.
This is what makes LoL unplayable for me these days.

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