Winter Expansion - Desperate times

[Pezzle]

I find it amusing that people are thinking that CCP is going to get this right (or close to right).

I don't know: there has been a pretty radical shift.  One of the CCP devs had a long chat with a couple of our directors about how to fix a non-controversial but game-wide system: he came into it with a set of ideas that would have snapped the system like a twig but after talking his suggestions are now really useful and look very realistic.  CCP are consulting like hell, adapting freely and seem to be really keen to draw on expertise where it exists.

If it brings about needed change, good for them.  At this point all that matters is results, not words.  I have been part of 'dev consults with players' before myself.  The results were disappointing. 

[slog]

I find it amusing that people are thinking that CCP is going to get this right (or close to right).

I don't know: there has been a pretty radical shift.  One of the CCP devs had a long chat with a couple of our directors about how to fix a non-controversial but game-wide system: he came into it with a set of ideas that would have snapped the system like a twig but after talking his suggestions are now really useful and look very realistic.  CCP are consulting like hell, adapting freely and seem to be really keen to draw on expertise where it exists.

Their problem hasn't been design as much as it has been delivery and testing.  Eve is millions of lines of spaghetti code and CCP's idea of QA has been "install it and fix the bugs based on the number of posts in CAOD."

[UnsGub]

[  Eve is millions of lines of spaghetti code and CCP's idea of QA has been "install it and fix the bugs based on the number of posts in CAOD."

They actually do very good testing for a game company and have their testers do multiple talks at Fan Fair.  Blizzard is the only other game company that I am aware of that does that.  They truly have career testers.

It is classic agile with one or more testers assigned to each team.  They contract out a continuous two week regression pass to a outside team.  They develop tools just for testing.

Their feature set is huge and continue to grow linearly.  Automation of UIs is still an unsolved problem.  Multi-tiered system adds to the complexity.  They are smart about what they do but like all test team have major constraints with the number and ability of testers.

[eldaec]

I find it amusing that people are thinking that CCP is going to get this right (or close to right).

I don't know: there has been a pretty radical shift.  One of the CCP devs had a long chat with a couple of our directors about how to fix a non-controversial but game-wide system: he came into it with a set of ideas that would have snapped the system like a twig but after talking his suggestions are now really useful and look very realistic.  CCP are consulting like hell, adapting freely and seem to be really keen to draw on expertise where it exists.

If it brings about needed change, good for them.  At this point all that matters is results, not words.  I have been part of 'dev consults with players' before myself.  The results were disappointing. 

The last time I remember the devs listening to the players was the supercap buff. Just saying.

They are doing what they can with a tiny budget and a complex game /shrug

All the changes in this update are just static data changes, there is a limit to what you can do if the team don't have the resources to work on mechanics.

[Nerf]

If Nerf Blasters ever stops being a terribly unfunny joke for gallente pilots, I will actually resub and shot shit with you fuckers again.

[Gets]

Ship spinning is back!!11!!!!Oneoneone

[Phildo]

Blasters are being used by Goonswarm to end ice mining in Gallente space forever.  They're still awesome for suicide ganking.

[Kageru]

Player owned PI customs stations because PI was too much fun and Eve/Dust players want more floating space bricks to shoot at.

[Stabs]

Player owned PI customs stations because PI was too much fun and Eve/Dust players want more floating space bricks to shoot at.

I really like this. It adds a lot of strategy to PI in hostile space and raises possibilities of interdiction. It also gives people more reason to fight each other.

It adds new things to build which I anticipate making lots of isk on. And it will see a big hike in PI material costs.

The space brick takes 4 mins to reinforce with a gang of 30 1k dps battleships. So it's nothing like as onerous or boring as pos shoots.

I'm playing eve completely solo at the moment and this change is likely to push me into a W-space corp. That seems good design, encouraging people to band up.

The only people who really lose out are people (like me) who are ninja PIing in dangerous space and who (unlike me) are unable to adapt.

[Gets]

space flask 

[tgr]

I like the PI changes where they've actually made the interface less cockstabby, i.e. I don't have to fuck around with whether I'm importing or exporting anymore. Because that was some dumb-ass shit UI design.

[IainC]

Of all the major systems that were released in a work in progress state that CCP swore they would iterate on, PI is so far the only one that they have actually worked on post-release. I guess Incarna will probably make that list too but reverting ship spinning isn't so much iterating as turning 180º.

[Kageru]

That's because it's part of the foundations for dust. Probably including making it destructable.

[Flatfoot]

CCP just announced they are laying off 114 people, 80 in Atlanta and 34 in Reykjavik. They are putting WoD on ice and concentrating on EVE and Dust according to a statement. I haven't found anything in english yet, but this is a Google translatation of the article on vb.is (can't be arsed to translate it myself).

It has been decided to terminate about 114 employees of the Icelandic company CCP games and redundancies related to structural changes at the company. Workers in Atlanta in the U.S. will be reduced by 80 and employees in this country for thirty-four.
The organizational changes include, in particular the increased focus on the two games, EVE Online and Dust 514, but it will be the development of the game World of Darkness. The employees of CCP are now a total of 600 employees and said in a statement that they will be reduced by 20%. This decrease is greatest in the U.S. because of the development work on World of Darkness particular request. The notification says that CCP will focus on providing those workers who are here concerned support and help in finding new jobs.

More emphasis on the EVE Online

World of Darkness is one of the development of CCP began after the merger with the American company White Wolf Publishing in 2006. Working with the World of Darkness will continue, however, fewer staff will handle development of the game. EVE Online was first released in 2003 and aims to support the CCP even better supporting the development of EVE Online and additions to the game in the near future and the issue of Dust 514 next year. Hilmar Petursson, CEO Veigar CCP is currently located in Atlanta and works with management to reorganize the office operations and move consistent with the company. Has been consulted with Labour for those employees who lose their jobs in this country, and similar authorities in the U.S. state of Georgia.

Visible results quickly

The notice states that the growth of EVE Online previous year previous year indicate that significant opportunity lies in developing and strengthening further the world of EVE. EVE-world connection to PlayStation consoles with the introduction of Dust 514 shots of the game are still rather numerous opportunities for both these games. It is the CCP that the interests of the company to make full use of these opportunities call for a review of how business requirements are changing. The aim of the review that is taking place to ensure continued growth and development of CCP in the long run. EVE Online fans will see signs of progress the above changes in development CCP immediately in the next update of the game, due later this winter.

*Edit, I see that IainC has beat me to it in the general MMO forum. Oh well.

[IainC]

It's online at the CCP Games site.

I just posted this in the general MMO section.

[MahrinSkel]

Wow.  Now that's an about-face.  Probably a good one for CCP, given what has happened with every other fantasy game since WoW.  It's just unusual to see a company ready to admit they're pouring money down a rathole with no real prospect of return.  Usually they ride it down in flames rather than admit they've bet the ranch on bad deal.

Dust 514 does have the advantage of leveraging their existing expertise, while still offering something new and having considerable potential upside (there's only been a couple of MMO's on consoles, one was a smashing success and the other...not so much).  I take back what I said before about Eve's neglect and resulting decline being inevitable.

--Dave

[Gets]

Called it.

[ajax34i]

Good reality check there.  I guess it makes sense that taking the WoD team and refocusing it on EVE won't really bring in any more money, and certainly not enough to pay their salaries, and thus they're being laid off.  But that means that EVE will still be developed at pretty much the rate we've seen so far (almost nil), and once Dust 514 is out it'll be supported as much as EVE, while the majority of the team focuses on developing WoD.

[slog]

Good reality check there.  I guess it makes sense that taking the WoD team and refocusing it on EVE won't really bring in any more money, and certainly not enough to pay their salaries, and thus they're being laid off.  But that means that EVE will still be developed at pretty much the rate we've seen so far (almost nil), and once Dust 514 is out it'll be supported as much as EVE, while the majority of the team focuses on developing WoD.

It's much more likely that CCP will fail as a company, given that they have never successfully rolled out a new product*.



*but what about EVE?  Eve was dropped by it's original publisher who took a large loss on it.

[ajax34i]

I don't think the way they roll out Dust 514 will specifically be the cause of the game's failure.  You're pretty much implying that it'll be an otherwise bug free, fun, and perfect game; it's more likely that it'll suck, and even if they roll it out brilliantly it'll still suck.

[Kageru]

I'm totally ambivalent about Dust. It's ultimately just another console shooter.

The fascinating part will be them selling Dust integration as being a game-play benefit to Eve players.

[Stabs]

I think Eve players are VERY keen to win and DUST will clearly become part of winning. DUST needs take up from both Eve players and regular FPS console gamers but it's not the Eve powergamers that are the problematic group.

[Kageru]

Eve players do not want their "win" determined by the actions of players in a largely disconnected game they are excluded from. Attempting to sell that to Eve players as a "benefit" will be an impressive task that slots neatly into the areas CCP are terrible at.

[MahrinSkel]

Eve players do not want their "win" determined by the actions of players in a largely disconnected game they are excluded from. Attempting to sell that to Eve players as a "benefit" will be an impressive task that slots neatly into the areas CCP are terrible at.

Eve players should be used to it.  Your "Win" is usually decided by players that may be running the same client, but they're not playing the same game.

--Dave

[Kageru]

Mysterious and meta, very nice.

That said all the action tends to converge on people, ships, floating space-bricks and stuff getting blown up within "one shared universe".

From an Eve point of view Dust is likely to end up being pretty much a random number generator where you can pay Isk to improve your chances.

[tgr]

I think Eve players are VERY keen to win and DUST will clearly become part of winning.

Hah. CCP'll at least try to make it part of winning. They'll fail at this, but they'll probably at least try.

DUST needs take up from both Eve players and regular FPS console gamers but it's not the Eve powergamers that are the problematic group.

Regular FPS console gamers aren't going to pick this up in anything like the numbers needed, and they won't have the staying power required either.

[Stabs]

Regular FPS console gamers aren't going to pick this up in anything like the numbers needed, and they won't have the staying power required either.

I think you're right. I hope you're wrong.

[slog]

 CCP, who are incapable of releasing code that isn't buggy as shit, are trying to make a console game.  Don't console games have to somewhat bug free to be released?

[Sparky]

They'll probably bring out a PC version once the PS3 crowd buggers off to the next shiny(if they come at all).

[TripleDES]

CCP, who are incapable of releasing code that isn't buggy as shit, are trying to make a console game.  Don't console games have to somewhat bug free to be released?

Test Drive Unlimited 2.

[Brolan]

Mysterious and meta, very nice.

That said all the action tends to converge on people, ships, floating space-bricks and stuff getting blown up within "one shared universe".

From an Eve point of view Dust is likely to end up being pretty much a random number generator where you can pay Isk to improve your chances.

I never figured Eve players would stand back and take no action in Dust.  There are so many multi-boxers out there I figured they would add a game machine for Dust, and take part in their own battles.   Recruiting their corp-mates to come with them.

[calapine]

I never figured Eve players would stand back and take no action in Dust. There are so many multi-boxers out there I figured they would add a game machine for Dust, and take part in their own battles. Recruiting their corp-mates to come with them.

Very slight difference between firing up another client window then AFK autopiloting your freighter through high-sec and buying a PS3.

Secondly, multiboxing a First person shooter?

[Thrawn]

I already own a PS3 and am usually a multi-boxing addict (although I've been down to 1 for a while now with school in the way).  But I'd probably only be interested in Dust if I could somehow use it to further my EvE account, or somehow use my EvE account to grief people in Dust.

[Kageru]

I never figured Eve players would stand back and take no action in Dust.  There are so many multi-boxers out there I figured they would add a game machine for Dust, and take part in their own battles.   Recruiting their corp-mates to come with them.

They've done pretty much everything in their power to make that not happen. Maybe if it's a really good shooter in its own right or becomes the prime determination of who holds sov in Eve you'd see Eve alliances have a dust presence. But the former is unlikely and the latter would piss off the Eve player-base.

Their model seems to be that Eve isk flows into dust which causes objectives to be achieved which have effects in Eve. Likewise committing your ship is another resource for the Dust players to use in the battle (including them potentially exploding it). But we don't know many of the details yet.

[eldaec]

Based on the history of ccp and eve, I think it is incredibly unlikely that ccp have decided how thebtwo games will interact in practice. The intent is exactly what you said, but lolccp.