Mists of Pandaria

[Fordel]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, I really hate RNG loot. A lot.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Pants levelling > no pants after 50 baron runs

[Azazel]

Honestly, this is such a bad idea that I can't see them changing ir over the course of Pandaria's lifetime, just as they did already with many of their bass-ackwards Cataclysm changes. You can certainly see that a new team is running the show, though, since this crap was already worked out and refined once in response to the awesomeness of RNG loot.

Buying new pants from doing runs > Pants levelling > no pants after 50 baron runs.

[Malakili]

Pants levelling > no pants after 50 baron runs

I had my cenarion chest before my wildheart 

[apocrypha]

For LFR in MoP
- On boss kill, game randomly picks 2-5 people.

That's not how I read it. From the blog (my emphasis):

- The boss dies.
- Each player has a chance to win loot, independent of the other players.

So theoretically every single player there could get an item from a single boss kill. There may well be, or they may add later, some limit to the number of items that can be got from a single boss, but it's not mentioned in the information we have so far.

[Sheepherder]

Buying new pants from doing runs > Pants levelling > no pants after 50 baron runs.

Not really.  

1. Buy pants with justice.  Do dungeon runs in them to get valor.
2. Level justice or LFR pants up to relative parity with raid gear.
3. ? ? ?
4. Profit.  (from not having to sink more money into item enhancement and customization)

Seriously, there are other things to get upset about, this merits a shrug.

[Wolf]

Quantity and quality are all that matters, numbnuts. Nobody takes any risk or effort in this game. It's all a basis of time.

If this was even remotely true guilds that raid 2x3x our time would be better then us. They're not. Heroic raiding is 50% effort, 30% skill and composure, and 20% in-game time investment.

And the new system is retarded, especially the charm bit & the bit where you have to do EVEN MORE to get your valor. I will lose people over this shit.

[luckton]

The Daily Blink on Warlock Tanks

Spoilered for size.

[Rokal]

Quantity and quality are all that matters, numbnuts. Nobody takes any risk or effort in this game. It's all a basis of time.

If this was even remotely true guilds that raid 2x3x our time would be better then us. They're not. Heroic raiding is 50% effort, 30% skill and composure, and 20% in-game time investment.

And the new system is retarded, especially the charm bit & the bit where you have to do EVEN MORE to get your valor. I will lose people over this shit.

Where do you read that you'll have to do even more for valor? We'll probably get the same valor per run from raids and dungeons, you'll just have the option of doing scenarios and dailies for valor if you want instead.

The charms you're being hyperbolic about. You will not need to grind dailies every day to stay competitive. It's a small chance at extra loot, which could be loot you already have. Here's how it will actually work for competitive heroic guilds:

Everybody stock-piles 20-30 charms at their leisure while clearing normal modes or while the previous raid tier is on farm. During the first 3-4 weeks of Heroic kills, everyone uses Charms. Given that most classes have ~2 items per spec that they can use off any given boss, using the charms won't be very beneficial once you have even one item from that boss. Not to mention the slot overlap that's still going to happen on loot tables. I doubt the non-LFR Charm gear will be tradeable either.

Or alternatively, you could just ignore charms entirely and you'll receive exactly the amount of loot you receive now.

[Paelos]

Quantity and quality are all that matters, numbnuts. Nobody takes any risk or effort in this game. It's all a basis of time.

If this was even remotely true guilds that raid 2x3x our time would be better then us. They're not. Heroic raiding is 50% effort, 30% skill and composure, and 20% in-game time investment.

And the new system is retarded, especially the charm bit & the bit where you have to do EVEN MORE to get your valor. I will lose people over this shit.

Effort = time. In game time = time. Composure = time. The only thing that's not time oriented is execution which is the skill portion of the game. And given that you can remove those who basically suck ass given enough time to set your composure, execution is about 10% of the overall game.

So I'll reorganize my thoughts on the matter to 90% time, 10% execution.

[Wolf]

he specifically said you won't be able to cap valor from raids:

Valor will come primarily from dungeons (including challenge modes) and scenarios. You might earn a little from daily quests and raiding as well, but that won't be as efficient.

As far as charms - you raid 10m right? How much gear do you still need from drops, after 20+ kills on some of them? We'll be spaming those charms from day 1 of tier, to the last raid before the new tier, and we still won't have all the drops we need. But you can't ignore them, even if it's 0.000000000001% chance of getting what you need, because that's how it works. It doesn't matter if it's a slim chance, you still _have_ to give yourself the chance to get it, or you will not be at your peak efficency compared to the other people in your raid. Having food is not something that is optional. This is just another consumable, the way you get it - through dailies, and the ammounts you'll have to spend - I can easily see it having to log in every single day to get them. I'd rather be vocal about it right now, then have to deal with burn outs mid-pandas.

Paleos - effort is not neceserilly time. Effort is paying attention, caring and yes, to some extend researching shit out of game. Instead of spending 20 minutes doing something else, you must spend 20 minutes going through a log. I specifically did not put it with the ingame time, because it's something that can be done from work/while commuting, etc. It's time, but not the same time you meant in your initial post. Composure is not time, it's part experience, yes, bu another part can be rolled into skill. I have raiders that have done heroic content for a year and a half and still get flustered and confused when shit hits the fan. And while personal ability is not something that is prevalent in wow, it is there. It's what separates the very top guilds, from the very bottom ones. And no, it's not all time.

Yes, you have to clock in time. But that is obviously not all, again - my guild is direct evidence of this. My whole issue with GC's post stems from me not being comfortable with investing more time then I currently am.

[luckton]

Seriously, you're sounding like the people GC tongue-in-cheeked in his post.  If we just give you all the epics after one run today, what the hell's the point in having you come back tomorrow?

[Wolf]

Then obviously I'm having an english r hard moment. I don't care about items at all, items are a tool to beat certain checks within an encounter. If I could play with the same items my toon spawned with and raid with them, I would, that's how much I don't care. I care about how much time I need to invest, to be prepared to do heroic raids. That is all. I'm comfortable with it atm - push at the begining of a tier - do lfr, dungeons to fill holes in gear left from the last tier, play maybe 13-14  hours a week. Month one on - log in 15 minutes before raid, maybe stock up on consumables one time a month, log out 15 minutes after the raid if i get something new so I can enchant it and do my reforge. End up playing maybe 10 hours a week. Month three-four on - log in 15 minutes beofre the raid, clear, log out. Maybe 3 hours a week, wait for the next tier.

If I'm bored I'll log an alt, maybe do LFR, maybe do a PUG. On my own time, IF i want to and have nothing better to do.

GC is speaking about changing that little arrangment, and I don't like it fucked with. I'm happy with how things work.

[Paelos]

Paleos - effort is not neceserilly time. Effort is paying attention, caring and yes, to some extend researching shit out of game. Instead of spending 20 minutes doing something else, you must spend 20 minutes going through a log. I specifically did not put it with the ingame time, because it's something that can be done from work/while commuting, etc. It's time, but not the same time you meant in your initial post. Composure is not time, it's part experience, yes, bu another part can be rolled into skill. I have raiders that have done heroic content for a year and a half and still get flustered and confused when shit hits the fan. And while personal ability is not something that is prevalent in wow, it is there. It's what separates the very top guilds, from the very bottom ones. And no, it's not all time.

Composure is time. I've lead raids, and trying to balance your raid is all about taking the time to ask people, follow up, create a roster, maintain the roster, check your buffs, check your backups, coddle the people who are pissy, etc. Is there skill in all that? Yeah, leadership skills are tough, and they involve time with people to get things done. It's not necessarily anybody's time but the leader, yet it's still time taken to do things right, and put the right people in the right places. Research outside the game is time. Looking at videos is time. Theorycrafting dps is time. Checking logs is time. Brainstorming strats is time. Effort in general is time.

The difference between the raiding guilds and the normal guilds is time by the players and the leadership to craft the optimal setup with the optimal people. The execution is a small portion of good planning.

[Wolf]

You're going away from your initial point which was - "Quantity and quality are all that matters, numbnuts. Nobody takes any risk or effort in this game. It's all a basis of time.", now that we've established that some of that effort tanslates to time, it doesn't make it any less effort. And I'm pretty sure what you mean by time initially was time spent ingame, doing shit that relates to raiding. Which is what I took issue with initially.

To be honest your whole rhetoric can be translated to anything in life, not only raiding in wow, so I don't know what you're trying to say :)

[Paelos]

My point is that you have to manage expectations of loot with time, and the quality thereof. Some raiders believe that the loot should go to the most skilled, when in reality it is a definition of time in some form or another, with a small portion of execution.

The point is that the quality and quantity of loot is the result. People in the game don't care about the why behind your decisions, they only care if it affects the quality and quantity of their rewards. If you fuck with the expectations regarding that quality and quantity, you will get angry responses. Right now I believe they are directly shifting away from the quantity of loot for people using valor points. That's not a good thing.

[Soulflame]

I played a class in WH that healed a little off of specific styles, but mainly mixed spells powered by energy generated from hitting things.  I liked it well enough, but as you said, the rest of the game was meh.

I'm not really a fan of a class that has eyes glued to health bars, with enough attention to environment to avoid dying to pretty flames.  I enjoyed WH's attempt to bring in something else for healers to do, such as friendly target + enemy target, and applying the occasional hit provided boosts or energy or whatnot that aided your healing.

[FieryBalrog]

I guess I'm going to wait and see what the actual loot & valor changes are before I get worked up.

Right now I'm more angry about how priests are getting neglected than anything else.

[Rokal]

he specifically said you won't be able to cap valor from raids:

Valor will come primarily from dungeons (including challenge modes) and scenarios. You might earn a little from daily quests and raiding as well, but that won't be as efficient.

You can't cap valor from raids now, unless you're running full DS clears and full LFR clears. Dungeons have been the more efficient way to get valor for the entire expansion pack. The valor you got from raiding was smaller given the time you put in, but since you were going to be raiding anyway you still benefited from it.

Similarly, you'll probably be doing dailies regularly at least when the expansion is new for rep/rewards. This means Charms and the valor cap will probably come without going out of your way to get them, atleast for a while.

As far as charms - you raid 10m right? How much gear do you still need from drops, after 20+ kills on some of them? We'll be spaming those charms from day 1 of tier, to the last raid before the new tier, and we still won't have all the drops we need. But you can't ignore them, even if it's 0.000000000001% chance of getting what you need, because that's how it works. It doesn't matter if it's a slim chance, you still _have_ to give yourself the chance to get it, or you will not be at your peak efficency compared to the other people in your raid. Having food is not something that is optional. This is just another consumable, the way you get it - through dailies, and the ammounts you'll have to spend - I can easily see it having to log in every single day to get them.

It's not like food or flasks because there is no guaranteed benefit. If you could only eat food once every 20 minutes and the buff was random, or could be a buff you already had from another player, food wouldn't be mandatory as it is now. The game wouldn't be balanced around it, and on average food would have a smaller impact on your character.

We do run into loot ruts where we go X weeks without ever seeing something like a shield or a trinket. Still, I don't see us using charms after the first couple weeks of heroics, and not at all during normals. Charms will accelerate loot acquisition for your raid, but it has diminishing returns. If I get 1 out of my 2 items on a boss from a charm, that means that the same item is now up for grabs for another player next week if it drops normally. Neither of us will probably continue to use charms on that boss, with that in mind.

I could see continuing to use them for a boss that you were getting bad RNG from until the item drops normally or you get it from a charm, but that's going to be an exception, not a rule. That would be me doing ~15 dailies or whatever over the course of the entire week (which also bring you closer to the valor cap).

Would you personally use a charm on H Morchok today if the loot from it wasn't tradable? What if the loot table had been done better and their wasn't shared loot with low % drops like the trinkets? I'll guess you wouldn't bother using charms because your character probably has what it needs from H Morchok, aside from maybe some shared loot. You won't be using charms every week on every boss forever.

[SurfD]

Did they even indicate if the Charms would work in "normal" raids?  The way the new loot system was described, it seemed to indicate that it only applied to LFR / LFD Pugs, which was where the new "Kill -> Roll -> Loot" system was going to be implimented.  The old "Kill -> Loot -> Roll" system is still going to remain unchanged for the Normal / Heroic raids and such.  Unless the bonus roll from charms is completely independant of the actual loot system, and just sort of goes "you get a private roll on this loot table regardless of raid type".

[Rokal]

They mentioned that it would work for normal/heroics, but they didn't elaborate on it much. Sounds like it will work the same way as LFR: it doesn't modify your roll or affect anyone else in the raid, it's just an extra chance to get loot from the boss. For example, you might use a Charm on a boss and receive an Agi ring as normal loot from the boss with a regular need/greed roll. Then your charm roll happens, and you receive another piece of loot which happens to be the same Agi ring. The charm doesn't care about whether you already won loot, or what you already own: it's just an extra chance to get a piece of loot from that boss for your spec.

[Wolf]

Would you personally use a charm on H Morchok today if the loot from it wasn't tradable? What if the loot table had been done better and their wasn't shared loot with low % drops like the trinkets? I'll guess you wouldn't bother using charms because your character probably has what it needs from H Morchok, aside from maybe some shared loot. You won't be using charms every week on every boss forever.

Every single kill, on every single boss up to spine until I get the aoe trink. It doesn't matter how low the chance is, the chance without using the charm is 0 if it didn't drop. 

[Rokal]

I did ask whether you'd use charms if it weren't for the shared loot on Morchok. Dragon Soul is a bit unusual because you have BiS trinkets that are shared loot. Hopefully it's not a mistake they make going forward, but you'd have a point if they did.

[Wolf]

Meh, firelands had shared loot, some was bis. They've done it before they'll do it again.

[Rokal]

What firelands shared loot was BiS? I remember the 1H Str weapon, but that was actually a trash drop. Charms wouldn't have helped there.

We get shared loot tables when they cut bosses from raids but decide that loot still needs to drop in the zone. T11 didn't have any, and hopefully if they don't skimp on patch content in MoP, we won't see any significant shared loot in the future.

[Wolf]

2h axe and 1h sp axe were shared loot. Both 391s were BIS up to ragnaros.

[Ingmar]

Even if there is shared loot, this is totally a "stop hitting yourself!" situation. If you don't use charms, things are as they were before, and you functioned just fine then.

[Fabricated]

Wow, the prot warrior changes kinda suck.

No rage from being hit anymore, shield block is off CD but costs 60 rage.

So infinite rage is gone now after 6 years and most of the players in talking beta classes right now say it feels weak, weird, wrong, and boring.

[luckton]

Wow, the prot warrior changes kinda suck.

No rage from being hit anymore, shield block is off CD but costs 60 rage.

So infinite rage is gone now after 6 years and most of the players in talking beta classes right now say it feels weak, weird, wrong, and boring.

It's not the first time they toyed with the idea of rage not generating on hits.  Would be interesting to see if this is the last though.  All of the other tank classes have to watch their resources much closer than the Warrior does.

[Ironwood]

Shit no.

[Fabricated]

It's not the first time they toyed with the idea of rage not generating on hits.  Would be interesting to see if this is the last though.  All of the other tank classes have to watch their resources much closer than the Warrior does.

I'd say that other tanks tend to have more interesting/impactful mitigation abilities. Shield Block is decidedly less interesting than pretty much all DK abilities and the Druid's savage defense. Also flat damage decreases for periods of time are more powerful in many instances than "you're pretty likely to block a few times". Namely adds.

[Sjofn]

Prot paladins don't have to watch shit.

[Ironwood]

Druids don't either.

Warriors and Death Knights are the most interactive and, frankly, the most annoying to play.

Tanking as a Shammy is super-double-plus-fun gud tho.  Ok, not really.

[Paelos]

So what do you get rage from? Hitting things? Procs?

[Merusk]

Hitting things, of course.   Just like last time they fucked with it then realized that warriors were getting creamed because having to stack that much hit was detrimental. 

Even DKs don't require as much fiddling and resource management as Warriors. We at least have the random rune respawn and much better "oh shit, give me resources NOW" buttons.  (Rune Tap, and Empower Rune Weapon)