Preview of 1.2 - Lots of awesome changes and fixes

[Count Nerfedalot]

Taking this track to its logical conclusion, make separate instances for every tier, and make it a really fair fight by limiting the gear you can wear in a Tn instance to Tn-1 gear.  So you earn your T1 gear fighting in T1 instances but you can't wear the T1 gear unless you queue for a T2 or higher instance.

[Draegan]

Thats a terrible idea.

[Ingmar]

It seems like a fine idea balance-wise actually, but the issue will be splitting the playerbase too much, you will see some tiers unable to pop an instance in a timely manner.

[Sjofn]

I'm always surprised that apparently Mythic is the only company that realized stat caps = gud.

[March]

I'm always surprised that apparently Mythic is the only company that realized stat caps = gud.

Yep, have to agree with you here.

Of course, that means your endgame kinda has to be fun on its own...

Of all the things RIFT copyed from WoW, the one thing that strikes me as a fail decision is: Raid-Rinse-Repeat.  Slap any sort of metagame on this puppy and its a winner...

[Draegan]

Am I the only one who loves getting better and better gear and then going back to old PVE content, whether it's solo, 5 man, or raids and stomping on it once in a while just because I can?

The idea of gear equalization in PVP is a good idea because gear disparity ruins other people's fun and offering those people zero alternative.  That kinda doesn't happen in PVE.

[Azuredream]

Only if there's other people to show off to.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Ah, I was wondering why Draegan would object to fair pvp fights. I specifically meant that for pvp only. I agree it would suck balls in pve. Sometimes it is fun to go back and revisit stuff in easy mode, or see some of the earlier level stuff you missed because you didn't feel like putting up with a pug to get to it.  In fact one of my biggest disappointments with RIFT has been the total inability of my wife and I to go back and duo even the easiest dungeons no matter how high level we got.  At least we kept getting curb-stomped at the entrance to every dungeon we tried even when we were 10 or 15 levels above the mob levels.

But back to making pvp truly balanced, while it might fragment the end-game player base, isn't that pretty much a necessary consequence of the design decision to reward victory in pvp with increased pvp abilities? Maybe it would also result in a larger pool of participants so the fragmentation wouldn't be as debilitating?

Edit: and I see the confusion comes from my sloppy use of terminology. Sorry about that. Replace T* with R* to put it in current Rift slang.

[Xanthippe]

Am I the only one who loves getting better and better gear and then going back to old PVE content, whether it's solo, 5 man, or raids and stomping on it once in a while just because I can?

The idea of gear equalization in PVP is a good idea because gear disparity ruins other people's fun and offering those people zero alternative.  That kinda doesn't happen in PVE.

No, you're not the only one - that was part of what made Wrath really fun for me (in WoW) and made Cataclysm not (instances too long, too much trash, and weren't fun - at least in pugs).

I really haven't investigated gear all that much, but the pvp gear I have (r1 and r2 set) is a lot better than what I had in most slots.  How does the rest stack up aside from the lack of hit?  I.e., if one slots for hit to get enough, the rest is equivalent to T...what? For r3/r4, and r5/r6?  Is r1/r2 equivalent to T1 or less or better?  Anyone know?

[devildog]

Look at the gear vendor for r5/6 gear. I think you will find that the valor is doubled and all other stats are about twice the power of r1 stuff unless my memory is just horrible. I know i picked up the r4 staff and that was a 100 spellpower(like 450 spellpower) boost to the r1 type staff i had been using. I am not sure on the r6 staff/hammer, but i think it is almost 100 more again at 550 spellpower? There really is no comparison. It seems almost like equating wow pvp seasons, i.e. r1/season1, r2/season2 etc. 

As to how this equates to t1/t2 dungeon gear, i don't think you can really make that comparison except on the weapons. I used a t1 hammer up to the point i could get a R4 hammer which far surpassed it in stats/spellpower/etc. The armor and rings can't really be compared to dungeon gear because the t1/2 gear has no valor, and valor seems to be pretty important stat to shoot for.

[Draegan]

I've probably done about a half a dozen Warfronts in all my days /played in RIFT.  I can't stomach the grind to get Valor gear, and playing a Rogue in a Warfront just isn't fun, even if I have nearly BiS raid gear.

[Nebu]

I'm about to hit rank 5.  As a mage, I can honestly say that pyros, Storm, and healers need significant pvp nerfs.  A competent R6 cleric healing a R6 pyro can dish out death after death with no counter short of about 10 players.  It's just stupid broken.

[squirrel]

I'm about to hit rank 5.  As a mage, I can honestly say that pyros, Storm, and healers need significant pvp nerfs.  A competent R6 cleric healing a R6 pyro can dish out death after death with no counter short of about 10 players.  It's just stupid broken.

Ayup. I just hit R4 on my rogue and I support this message.

[Draegan]

I'm just irritated that the best trinket for PVE is a notoriety item for the Codex.

Compare:
From Alsbeth: http://rift.zam.com/en/item/AED4DB0301010101/Token-of-Stolen-Souls
145 AP for 30sec, 2m cooldown

to

From Codex Rep: http://rift.zam.com/en/item/E4B0B4F00201010101/Words-of-War
20 end, 16 AP, 250 AP for 30sec, 2m cooldown

GAH

[Sjofn]

Am I the only one who loves getting better and better gear and then going back to old PVE content, whether it's solo, 5 man, or raids and stomping on it once in a while just because I can?

The idea of gear equalization in PVP is a good idea because gear disparity ruins other people's fun and offering those people zero alternative.  That kinda doesn't happen in PVE.

Oh, I just meant in PvP. I don't give a shit about it in PvE, gear bloat away there.

[Fordel]

I actually hate it in PvE too, but I've never liked that whole raid to get better gear to raid better to get better gear.


I want to collect my suits, then be 'done'. Maybe have different suits for different jobs. Maybe.

[Sjofn]

I need the "more better stuffz" carrot in PvE once I'm level capped, personally. I suspect most people do. Not in PvP though, that can be interesting enough all on its own without me needing a gear treadmill there too.

[Xanthippe]

I've probably done about a half a dozen Warfronts in all my days /played in RIFT.  I can't stomach the grind to get Valor gear, and playing a Rogue in a Warfront just isn't fun, even if I have nearly BiS raid gear.

Well, as someone who is probably opposite than you in terms of what I enjoy in games, I'll agree that the warfront grind is not fun, but for very different reasons.

Warfronts pre50 were a blast.  Post50, no.  Due to high ranked premades rolling pugs, I would guess, as there are no premades pre50 and no ranks.

But when I do get into an even match, there isn't anything more fun for me.  Yesterday I was in a 1000-994 Codex that was hugely fun - both sides lacked premades and high ranks.  We lost, but I didn't care.  It was the most fun warfront since hitting 50.

[Nebu]

Yesterday I was in a 1000-994 Codex that was hugely fun - both sides lacked premades and high ranks.  We lost, but I didn't care.  It was the most fun warfront since hitting 50.

Trion needs to engineer a way for these situations to occur more often.  The idea posted by someone else to have WF queues limited to certain realm ranks was brilliant for this reason.

[Dren]

Yesterday I was in a 1000-994 Codex that was hugely fun - both sides lacked premades and high ranks.  We lost, but I didn't care.  It was the most fun warfront since hitting 50.

Trion needs to engineer a way for these situations to occur more often...

All MMO PVP creators need to.  This is the pinnacle of why we play, just to get these nuggets once in awhile.  The more you have, the less the other crap gets you down.  Winning isn't the goal either.  If I can feel like I've contributed to the team and done my role well, I'm happy.  Or, I want to at least learn from the experience and get better.  WTF moments of getting steamrolled by a premade doesn't really teach me anything other than "try to get into a premade too!"

[Shatter]

I am sooooo goddam tired of premades Im rolling alt after alt just so I dont bother to enter the 50 bracket.  Fun all the way to 50 then boom premade hell.  Since I am apparently a cutter I entered a few Warfronts last night on my rank 5 rogue and spent more time afk after we got rolled in Codex and held down at our flag.  They seriously cannot put enough resources on this stupidity to get it changed fast enough.  In the last 2 weeks Ive done 20 Warfronts on my (2) 50 toons and all 20 had premades on the opposing side which turned into not just a loss but dry penetration

[Nebu]

PvP gets much better when you start obtaining R5 gear.  A decently led PUG can often make for a tight battle against premades, particularly in WF's other than BG.  BG has such close quarters that one healer can make the difference in a match.  Codex for example spreads things out enough that a 5-man premade can help, but not decide the outcome.

Personally, I love beating premades in Codex.  Especially the vocal ones.

[ezrast]

A friend and I rerolled on a server whose LFG queues actually pop. Suddenly I'm interested in this game again.

[luckton]

PvP gets much better when you start obtaining R5 gear. 

Well  .  That's like saying life's easier once you make $200k a year.  It's the road to RR5 that's killing people.  That's why we need to separate the RRs into brackets.

[Mrbloodworth]

I hate to say it, but those dudes at top tier DIKU PvP, like it this way. They don't want you to have a chance, they WANT to have a sword that does more damage than you have hit points.

Why do you think they Catassed?

Noob. "You didn't earn it".

DIKU PVP is terrible.

[Ashamanchill]

Isn't the trick separating them from us chumps, or giving them a reason to only fight other top tier folk?

For what it's worth, I like DIKU PvP more then other PvP, but yeah it does tend to suck, especially since it gets suckered into the same pratfalls time and time again.

[Ingmar]

I hate to say it, but those dudes at top tier DIKU PvP, like it this way. They don't want you to have a chance, they WANT to have a sword that does more damage than you have hit points.

Why do you think they Catassed?

Noob. "You didn't earn it".

DIKU PVP is terrible.

No, gear dependent PVP is terrible. DAOC was a diku that didn't really have that problem.

[Threash]

Isn't the trick separating them from us chumps, or giving them a reason to only fight other top tier folk?

Well that makes the grind absolutely pointless.  Whats the point of going from a sword that does 100 damage to one that does 1000 if your targets are going from 1000 hit points to 10000?  Beating up on undergeared people is the whole point.

[Ashamanchill]

I know why PvPers want better gear, I'm not immune to it myself, but the trick to a halfway decent PvP system is to routinely keep those with 1000 damage swords away from the sheep with 1000 hit points, otherwise the problem tends to fix itself in a way the devs don't want. All the sheep quit, and only people with 1000 damage swords and 10000 hit points are left running around.

I like how League of Legends does it anyways, where gear resets at the start of every match, and is only aqquired in each match in isolation. I'm looking forward to see how GW2 does it, cause I missed out on the first one.

[Zetor]

I know why PvPers want better gear, I'm not immune to it myself, but the trick to a halfway decent PvP system is to routinely keep those with 1000 damage swords away from the sheep with 1000 hit points, otherwise the problem tends to fix itself in a way the devs don't want. All the sheep quit, and only people with 1000 damage swords and 10000 hit points are left running around.

I like how League of Legends does it anyways, where gear resets at the start of every match, and is only aqquired in each match in isolation. I'm looking forward to see how GW2 does it, cause I missed out on the first one.

GW has the right idea. I'll c&p since I'm too lazy :p

(snip)

Why is it beyond mmo designers to create fun pvp for people?  I'm sure it's fun for the R6 players to have plenty of R0 players to dominate, but it's just grind for the R0s.  I can't recall how Guild Wars works in relation to this - do people become more powerful as they win more?

If warfronts are fun, then why must an element of grind be put into them before they are fun?  If they took out the grind, they would be more fun, although people might play less.  But they could grind for titles or pets or achievements (and they would) rather than superpowers and gear.

Guild Wars has pretty much the best balanced pvp game I've seen in a mmog. You can create a pvp-only char that starts at max level (not that getting level 20 takes more than a few hours), and can use all of the skills that your characters have unlocked (via quests, capturing from bosses, or buying unlock packs from the store). Granted, for some builds you need to get very specific skills to be competitive, but you can create a perfectly viable pvp build out of the gate. You gain Balthazar faction as you win games, which you can use to unlock skills and various equipment upgrades (admittedly the equipment upgrades make a difference, but not THAT big a difference). Due to GW's design, everyone has the same stats (hp/mana/armor) and the same number of skillpoints to distribute among the same class abilities. Of course if you want to use the latest theorycrafted uberbuild, you'll need to have unlocked the appropriate skills for it.

GW has other problems. The barrier-of-entry is finding people to play with, which causes schedule issues. The competitive formats all need 4/8 people... the only things you can pug are random arenas (basically team deathmatch and also insanely luck-dependant) and the two 'battleground-esque' competitive missions from Factions (which are decent to fun-to-play, but there's only 2 of them).

[Mrbloodworth]

I know why PvPers want better gear, I'm not immune to it myself, but the trick to a halfway decent PvP system is to routinely keep those with 1000 damage swords away from the sheep with 1000 hit points

Not for the majority.

[Xanthippe]

That's the thing though.  A new 50 faces a soul-crushing couple of weeks in warfronts until they can equip enough valor to not get 2hit by higher ranks.  The only people that will appeal to are those willing to punish themselves in order to get to the fun.  New 50s can try to make themselves valuable (which is really hard) or they can just resign themselves to the idea that not much they do will matter anyway while they grind away for some basic pvp gear. How many will just stand around or hide and do nothing?  (So far I haven't seen many do this but I worry that is exactly what will happen, particularly given the recent merges making people more anonymous).

The way it currently is set up, a new 50 is actually discouraged from pvping in warfronts because it's not fun. 

Too bad pvp doesn't just award fluff.  I'd spend more time in 50 warfronts than I currently do.

I've started playing my little cleric, who is likely going to come up completely through warfronts.  That is very fun.

I wonder if Trion has any plans on instituting some sort of open world pvp a la DAOC.  I suspect they'd pick up a lot of subscribers if they were to do such a thing, given the amount of DAOC RvR nostalgia that exists. 

[Nebu]

The way it currently is set up, a new 50 is actually discouraged from pvping in warfronts because it's not fun. 

I'm not sure I agree with this 100%.  A fresh 50 faces significant challenges, but you can easily adapt your playstyle to help. 

1) Pick specs that maximize survivability at the expense of dps.  You're not going to win a 1v1 unless you're facing someone terrible or another R1 anyway. 

2) STAY WITH THE PACK

3) Shrug off being 1-shot.  It won't happen forever. 

4) STAY WITH THE PACK

I did this and gained Rank 3 pretty quickly.  With Rank 2/3 gear, you can get close to 20% damage miitgation and open up your pvp soul.  This will allow you to swap out abilities that will help with your dps and enhance your enjoyment.

I play a lot and still get destroyed by premades.  Focus fire is deadly to everyone. 

[Xanthippe]

That's all good advice.  I have hit r2 on my mage and r3 on my rogue.  Playing bard was more satisfying than anything else, since my assassin couldn't kill much and my marksman was mostly just spamming eradicate to strip healing or buffs.  Marksmen who do this get targeted pretty quick, I found.  Bards don't get targeted at all, it seems, until everyone else is dead.

450 valor makes a huge difference. 

[Dren]

I'm getting close to rerolling a char and lvl completely through BF's.  I'll take all this advice to heart.  Are you guys doing PvP on Dimroot or have you been on a PvP server?  I'm thinking a PvP server would be good for this.