Sub rogue mace or dagger?

[TheWall]

My arena toon is a subtlety rogue. I'm trying to decide which will be better burst damage in the arena. I know daggers hit harder on ambush and a slight bit better on hemo. But it will totally lose on white damage hits. Since people don't die inside of cheapshot anymore I need better sustained damage after my opener. Does anyone have any thoughts on which is better?

[Arrrgh]

My arena toon is a subtlety rogue. I'm trying to decide which will be better burst damage in the arena. I know daggers hit harder on ambush and a slight bit better on hemo. But it will totally lose on white damage hits. Since people don't die inside of cheapshot anymore I need better sustained damage after my opener. Does anyone have any thoughts on which is better?

I often shadow step, ambush, and spam backstab (still requires daggers I think/hope). It's great burst and I can usually get a couple in before they pivot.

[TheWall]

You can now ambush with any weapon. Combine that with shadowdance and you can often open with about 3 ambush before they move. After that its Hemo spam if you don't have daggers. I have enough conquest points to buy a weapon now so I'm trying to decide if I should get the hammer or dagger.

edit: backstab still requires daggers. It hits like a truck now too when fully talented. In arena though it can be difficult to get in position for it after you leave stealth.

[Arrrgh]

Yes, I was saying backstab still required daggers, not ambush.

But you can shadow step and backstab more often than you can shadowdance.

[Merusk]

If you're not sapmming backstab for waylay, then I'd think the hammer's the better choice.  Everything's based off weapon damage, after all with daggers getting a 1.44 modifier only to ambush and hemo. You could always just do the math for it to see if that 1.44 really makes up the difference. 

If you're shadowstepping you could still ambush, then sinister instead of backstab, yeah?

I always kept daggers for waylay alone.  I knew I wasn't killing anything solo anymore so it was better on most BGs to have that uninterruptable and uncleansable snare to keep the target slow.  But that was BGs and not arenas, which I just can't stand.

[TheWall]

You have a good point. I don't have waylay talented currently. I'm using a fist weapon in my main hand. I guess I can buy it and try it for an hour and see which I like best. I did the math on ambush and hemo and they both do more damage with a dagger but not by much. If all my damage was coming from specials it would be a no brainer. The question is though, does backstab out perform hemorage. Its a lot more energy and doesn't build combo points faster.

[Merusk]

If I did the math right and you're using the Viscous Gladiator Pummeler for Hemo & Shanker for backstab, they do 42.6 & 42.8 damage per energy respectively.  So it's a wash between the two.


Mace does ~1491.6 per hemo @ 35e. 
Shanker does 2569 per backstab @60e.

Note, I am not a long time rogue player or a big-time theorycrafter so I'm sure I missed glyphs, talents, whatever.  I just did some quick math to see, figuring it would be a wash because that's how game designers work.  I was satisfied when I saw it was.

[murdoc]

I use daggers with my Sub rogue. I usually open with a Premeditation -> Ambush which gives me an instant 5 combo point Kidney Shot. Then it's Shadowstep and backstab to my hearts content. Dropping a recouperate on the next 5 combo points and I'm regaining both energy and health due to talents. At every opportunity I'm dropping backstab on someone, so I personally wouldn't consider use maces as a Sub rogue - but that's also the way I'm deciding to play him.

I'm finding the Sub rogue to be a REALLY nice challenge. There's a lot more utility to the spec imo and it's not just about spamming Mutilate over and over, but it's much more dependant on positioning, which I can be fairly terrible at, at times. But when it goes right, I can chew through people like you wouldn't believe. I love it when someone turns away from me to go chase my healer.

[Arrrgh]

This is from one random BG and a BH...

Ambush, 81.4% Crit for 13,876...9.3% non crit for 7,642...rest absorbed.

Backstab, 60.2% crit for 15, 081 average...non crit 35.8% for 6, 452...absorbs...

Hemo, 20.8% crit for 6,791...non crit 57.5 for 2,765...some dodge/parry...

You'd need 3/3 Puncturing Wounds for all the backstab crits.

[TheWall]

I think I'm going to spec back into waylay and backstab to see how it goes. Do you think its better to keep two points in improved recuperate in the combat tree or drop those for two points in quickening from the assassination tree?

[murdoc]

I think I'm going to spec back into waylay and backstab to see how it goes. Do you think its better to keep two points in improved recuperate in the combat tree or drop those for two points in quickening from the assassination tree?

I think until the next patch when they change Recoup, it's worth the two points. I had spec'd out to play around with a couple things and I think I'll spec them back. Once the patch hits, I think quickening is the way to go. The fastest I'll be able to move outside of a mount will be while stealthed and with Glyphs and talents, you'll be able to hit 200% speed while stealthed.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt though, as I am most definitely a casual player and spent last night getting my ass thoroughly throttled in the Arena while we tried some new stuff out - but those are my thoughts on it.

[TheWall]

Hahaha I'm the same as you. My partner is also a sub rogue. We are just happy to get our 5 wins for the week. I'm just trying to get the most out of my limited skill with this toon.

[murdoc]

I know I'm not looking in the right spots, but I'm finding it tough to find Sub Rogue PvP info. What little I can find is for PvE and it basically says "Don't spec Sub for raids, dumbass".

There's another Sub Rogue in our guild and we keep saying that we're going to try a 3v3 team with the two of us and his Wife's Druid. I think if you could get timing down right, a couple of Sub Rogues could rip people up pretty good but there's so little room for error on your rotation. A rotation that I still haven't quite figured out ;)

[TheWall]

Over lunch I tried my new spec with the viscious dagger. Backstab was out performing even ambush for damage on the 85 target dummy doing a full energy bar burst. I tried the burst of a few other specs too like killingspree in combat using the viscious mace. Not even close. Backstab destroys them all.

[Sheepherder]

Which is just as well, since the dagger and mace do the same white DPS anyways.

[Threash]

Dagger is the only viable option for sub.  You give up a lot of damage already, giving up backstab would cripple your already low dps.