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Quinton
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on: March 08, 2011, 12:39:27 AM

What should I know?

Where should I go?

Is it enjoyable at < $maxlevel?

What are the rewards?
Rendakor
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Reply #1 on: March 08, 2011, 12:51:48 AM

Once you get to level 10 you can start doing Warfronts (BGs); I can't remember what the default key to queue up is since I rebound mine. The level 10 one is murderball, at level 20 you unlock AB/domination, and at 30 you open up CTF; I'm not sure if there is a new one at level 50 or not. It's pretty fun if you like that style of PVP.

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Cadaverine
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Reply #2 on: March 08, 2011, 01:54:51 AM

It's 'K' to open the pvp screen to queue up.

I thought Port Scion was the level 50 warfront?

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
Lucas
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Reply #3 on: March 08, 2011, 10:10:21 AM

Err, yesterday I tried my first warfront (lv 13)...I really couldn't understand what was going on, just people getting in the middle of this temple thing and killing each other (yes, yes, I read the Warfront description). Maybe I also have to change something in my UI because I couldn't recognize the class of any of my enemies :P. Ideally, who should I target first as a DPS mage?

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Pennilenko
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Reply #4 on: March 08, 2011, 10:22:33 AM

Err, yesterday I tried my first warfront (lv 13)...I really couldn't understand what was going on, just people getting in the middle of this temple thing and killing each other (yes, yes, I read the Warfront description). Maybe I also have to change something in my UI because I couldn't recognize the class of any of my enemies :P. Ideally, who should I target first as a DPS mage?

As a dps mage you should be hiding and try not to be found. Or you can look for other people wearing cloth or leather and go after them.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
Koyasha
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Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 11:14:14 AM

Mm, here's a basic rundown on what I've found and things that seem to work for me.

Trying to recognize enemy classes is difficult.  You can generally recognize armor type, but it often tells you little about that character's actual role - a lot of clerics aren't healers, for example.  Worse, spell graphics aren't particularly blatant or obvious, and double-worse a lot of times when there's 'too many' people on screen or 'too many' spell graphics going on, they seem to stop showing up altogether.  Still, if you identify a healer you can often CC them, which tends to be the best thing to do.  Killing a good healer (particularly a cleric) is damn near impossible unless people are focusing on him though, so if you can't CC, try to bring attention to the healer so you can focus fire them down.

If you're a mage, cleric, or bard, make sure that your secondary role is capable of healing.  This wins matches.  If no one else is healing, analyze the situation, see if you're more likely to win by switching roles, and do it if so.  Remember, winning is the only thing that matters.

Black Garden:
The objective is to hold the fang, and you get points for time spent holding the fang.  Amount of points vary depending on where the fang-holder is standing, with the most points gotten when the fang-holder is right near the crater where the fang spawns, and the least points when the fang-holder is way back near your own spawn point.  The fang deals increasing damage to the fang-holder until the person holding it dies.  There doesn't seem to be a way to intentionally drop the fang before you die so a teammate can pick it up - you just have to wait til you die.

At the start of the game when the warfront opens, the best strategy seems to be to charge forward.  If the entire team charges into the crater where the fang spawns instead of stopping short, you've got a much higher chance of obtaining the fang right off the bat as you do if the entire team is cowards and holds back.  This may change at higher levels with more powerful AE or something, but at low levels I have yet to see any seriously effective AE cause this clump to become a losing situation.  Those with AE skills should be keeping the enemy from grabbing the fang, those without should be trying to grab the fang.  Quite commonly I see one side or the other stop short at the beginning, have most of the team hold back and try to do ranged attacks to keep the others off the fang, and only one or two go forward to grab - this is almost never effective, the other team usually gets the fang at that point.

If your team has the fang, the fang holder should ideally stay near the crater with the entire team nearby and continue to fight right around there.  Crater itself has plenty of LOS capability with those spikes and stuff sprouting up from it, so there's no reason to retreat way back.  The fang holder should never get too separated from the rest of the team, since they're going to die and someone will need to pick up the fang.  Obviously the worst possible thing to do as a fang holder is flee away from allies, and especially away from healers.  Most people who grab the fang tend to run back to the trees on the side of the valley nearest their own base.  This isn't too terrible a strategy at least, as the trees provide line of sight cover and make the enemies run further to get to you - if you're losing the fight near the crater, this is a decent thing to try.  If you're the fang holder, defend yourself and stay near allies so they can grab the fang when you die, if you're not, stay near the fang holder and attack anyone that comes near him.

If the other team has the fang, attack the fang holder.  If you identify a healer, CC them if possible, if not it's often better to just continue to concentrate on the fang holder.  They're an obvious target and the fang itself is hurting them, so if you hit at the right moment when they are weak from the fang itself, they will die.  More importantly, as many people as possible should be right up in the fang holder's face.  Even if you're ranged, you should be trying to be as close to the enemy fang holder as possible, because when that guy dies, your team's chances of getting the fang depend on whether there's enough of your team near him to both keep enemies from picking it up, and pick it up themselves.  If no one picks up the fang for a period of time (10 seconds maybe?) it vanishes and reappears at the center.  There's a delay between it vanishing and reappearing.  As soon as it vanishes, make for the center; a lot of people don't.  Never attack anyone who's not the fang carrier, or at least near the fang carrier, unless you're just tossing an instant attack at them on your way TO the fang carrier.

The Codex:
The objective is to get 1000 points first.  This is basically Arathi Basin, but it has four control points and one of them - the Codex - gives more points than any other node.  When a node is assaulted it takes 60 seconds to flip to the assaulting side, so sometimes there is actually time to run from one node to another, kill the attackers, and successfully defend.  It takes at least two nodes to win - Codex+1, or all three of the others, if you don't possess the Codex.

A large number of people charge for the Codex immediately since it gives more points than other nodes.  Someone needs to pick up the scope/statue on the way to the Codex, and if the enemy team is smart, someone needs to be defending it.  A highly mobile class can go all the way to the Codex and stand in a place where they can watch the statue/scope, and run to its defense when someone begins to approach, but this is a dangerous tactic.

Generally speaking someone should go to the Vault right off the bat as well, ideally 2-4 people.  If the enemy sends a sizeable force to the vault then they will be weakened at the codex (and those 2-4 people can put up something of a fight to keep the sizeable force busy).  If the enemy sends a small force or, as is occasionally the case, no one, you can take the Vault then stand on the T intersection to defend it, while watching the statue/scope.  If at any time the statue/scope is undefended, a couple people should hurry over there and assault it.

Personal strategy for this varies - if you are confident in your capacity to hold your own and defeat 1-3 enemies, you should almost always head for the Vault and try to take the statue/scope when possible.  If you need support to do anything useful, stick with the zerg at the Codex.  If you heal, make sure there's at least one person healing at the Codex before looking to see what other bases you can help at.  Since this map has more possible situations than Black Garden, it's harder to give an overall strategy.

Is it enjoyable?
Well, if you enjoy battlegrounds it should be.  Even though the brackets are large, I have not noticed a lack of ability to contribute at the lower levels of the bracket, myself.  I can be useful even at x0-x3, if I am smart.  There is the typical amount of idiots that do completely stupid things, and the typical amount of people who refuse to do everything in their power to win, so there's annoyance and frustration as expected.

Rewards.
At 15, I believe, you can purchase some boots and gloves from the pvp vendor at Kelari Refuge (or whatever the guardian equivalent is, I presume).  At 25, some items become available from the Moribund and the Eldritch Seekers, if you have enough faction with them, and every 10 levels thereafter some additional items seem to open up.  In addition, the Moribund and Eldritch Seekers give some quests for their respective zones - after completing the first couple quests, the followup is to win 5 matches, and it gives a rather nice item.  The pvp soul is available for 2500 favor, but requires level 50 in order to go beyond 5 points in, I understand (have not purchased it myself).  Still might be a good buy depending on your build since 0 points in it gives a CC-break ability, and 5 points in it might give something useful to you.

-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth
Lucas
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Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 11:20:29 AM

Thanks a lot, Koyasha :). Granted, I'll play a few more later this evening, but as far as I recall, getting the hang of battlegrounds, recognizing classes and other landmarks was far more easier in Warhammer (never tried the WoW ones), so I was a bit lost when I did Black Garden yesterday.

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
kildorn
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Reply #7 on: March 08, 2011, 11:24:26 AM

Best you can do for recognition is spotting suspicious characters or uncommon spell effects. See someone bunny hopping and tossing yellow crystal darts? Sabo, murder him.

See someone standing around chain casting? In general, murder anyone standing still casting something. But if they're not even looking in your team's exact direction, it's 90% a healer.

See someone with a lute out? KILL THAT LITTLE BASTARD.
Lucas
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Reply #8 on: March 08, 2011, 11:29:24 AM

Best you can do for recognition is spotting suspicious characters or uncommon spell effects. See someone bunny hopping and tossing yellow crystal darts? Sabo, murder him.

See someone standing around chain casting? In general, murder anyone standing still casting something. But if they're not even looking in your team's exact direction, it's 90% a healer.

See someone with a lute out? KILL THAT LITTLE BASTARD.

Gotcha.

Bunny hopper ----> MURDER
Guy gesturing something fishy ----->KILL KILL
Funny guy looking at a tree instead of the team ------> KILL KILL KILL
Lute Guy ------> KILL THE BASTARD

I'm starting to see a pattern there.

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Rendakor
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Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 12:07:19 PM

You can actually put 10 points in the PVP soul before level 50, by filling out both of the first tier talents.

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Pendan
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Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 12:11:28 PM

Nice post Kayasha. Besides the 10 point thing Rendakor said I would add you can buy level 18 rings and belt with favor in stonefield and I am sure the guardian equivalent.
ezrast
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Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 01:22:42 PM

At the start of the game when the warfront opens, the best strategy seems to be to charge forward.  If the entire team charges into the crater where the fang spawns instead of stopping short, you've got a much higher chance of obtaining the fang right off the bat as you do if the entire team is cowards and holds back.  This may change at higher levels with more powerful AE or something, but at low levels I have yet to see any seriously effective AE cause this clump to become a losing situation.
This. You can determine the winner of Black Garden in the first 15 seconds with 95% accuracy just by looking at which team has more people that run into the middle before the fang spawns instead of stopping just outside of spell range of the other zerg. At least in the 10-19 bracket.
Arinon
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Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 02:19:32 PM

Anyone that gets access to shielding spells, mostly clerics but I think mages as well, can almost single-handedly decide Black Garden matches in the first couple of level brackets.  You don't see as much knockback and CC usage and the cast bar for interacting with the Fang doesn't get interrupted by damage with those shields up.

Any cleric PvPing between 10 and 29 should totally be running Purifier as a zero point soul if they don't get a shield spell from their man trees.
kildorn
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Reply #13 on: March 08, 2011, 02:28:00 PM

Anyone that gets access to shielding spells, mostly clerics but I think mages as well, can almost single-handedly decide Black Garden matches in the first couple of level brackets.  You don't see as much knockback and CC usage and the cast bar for interacting with the Fang doesn't get interrupted by damage with those shields up.

Any cleric PvPing between 10 and 29 should totally be running Purifier as a zero point soul if they don't get a shield spell from their man trees.


Champs can also single handedly decide BG matches. Their AE Fear has very few counters at that tier (about as many as dispel mechanics for shielded clerics) and can chase everyone off the fang.
Lantyssa
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Reply #14 on: March 08, 2011, 04:40:11 PM


Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Lucas
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Reply #15 on: March 08, 2011, 04:59:04 PM

LOL, enlightening. Thanks.

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Surlyboi
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Reply #16 on: March 08, 2011, 06:14:24 PM

Best guild name I've seen so far, "it hurts when I PVP"

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Koyasha
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Reply #17 on: March 08, 2011, 10:08:03 PM

At level 30, you get access to Whitefall Steppes, which is a CTF game.  Bigass crystal on each side, you need to capture theirs while keeping yours.  Typical strategies apply, but it does have one point that makes it differ noticeably from what one might be used to with Warsong Gulch: The crystals can't be picked up instantly, you need to be uninterrupted for about 4 seconds while trying to grab it.  This makes defense a lot more viable: you can actually prevent the enemy from picking up your crystal.  This means that a completely functional tactic, if you're in the lead, is to have your entire team pile on defense and wait out the timer.

Another observation is that since players can dismount you, sometimes it's unavoidable to be stuck fighting midfield.  You'll get dismounted and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it other than die or fight back.

-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth
Cadaverine
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Reply #18 on: March 08, 2011, 11:50:34 PM

So far, my experiences in the 10 - 19 bracket for Black Gardens has led me to believe that a good percentage of people playing the game have zero clue wth they are doing.  Last night was the worst by far, though.  On the Guardian side, the team didn't even go up to the crater at mid-field.  At least half the team hid behind the tree on our side, and were farmed by one, or two, Defiant players.  A couple Guardians spent the match at the crater dicking around with a couple Defiant that were there, and myself, and one other player spent the match killing the fang carrier, then dieing to the other 5 odd defiant hanging out with them.

I finally got tired of it, and switched over to my Defiant character, and it was like night and day.  People got healed, people went after the fang, etc.  Strange thing is, if you dare to read the official forums, it's all bitching about how Guardians win every time in the WF's, which has never been my experience, from beta on.

Hopefully, it gets better in the later brackets, assuming I can ever stick with one character long enough to get past level 19.

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
Quinton
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Reply #19 on: March 09, 2011, 12:50:09 AM

Perhaps we picked a server populated by dumb good guys?  It can happen.
Koyasha
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Reply #20 on: March 09, 2011, 01:37:06 AM

To add to my comments on Whitefall Steppes, defense seems really important.  A lot of groups seem to have the same mentality as Warsong Gulch here, where the entire group charges across to attack and then kill the carrier on the way back - it seems like this is a much more questionable strategy given the differences.  Instead, it might be more optimal for about 10 players to remain on defense at all times, while the other 5 go forward and attack.  Unless the enemy is doing serious defense also, your attack team will eventually get the thing at least once, which is all you need to win as long as you never let them get your crystal, since once you're at 1/0 you can just run down the timer.

-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth
Zetor
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Reply #21 on: March 09, 2011, 02:39:09 AM

I feared that my characters (healer cleric; also champion warrior alt) would be useless at x0-x2 in a bracket, but it's very much not the case. Sure, topping the charts is out of the question (though I still top healing regularly on my cleric... but that doesn't mean much  Ohhhhh, I see.), but a level x1 can cc, heal, interrupt, etc. just fine. I like codex and whitefall steppes so far, black garden is kind of blah (see below). Whitefall Steppes is actually more like Twin Peaks than WSG, which - combined with the fact that picking up the flag actually takes time - makes it more enjoyable.

Black Garden is a pretty terrible BG imo (all about the zerg + which side has less mouthbreathers; not having a good healer is almost an autoloss). Use silences / interrupts / CC on the healer(s) while everyone else is beating on the fang carrier; when the fang is ticking for 1/2 a health bar every 5 seconds, a single missed heal can cause the carrier to drop. I also save any aoe CC (fears, bard mez) when the fang carrier on either side is about to drop. Another trick is to use knockbacks to knock the fang carrier out of his healers' LOS. Note that not all AOEs and attacks interrupt 'picking up the fang', even if the enemy doesn't have an absorb shield active.

Another thing for Codex and Whitefall Steppes - crowd control is often more valuable than kills, including 'soft cc' (knockbacks off ledges, aoe slows) and 'player cc' (forcing an enemy to fight on the roads or chase someone when their team is at a point disadvantage). In codex if you kill off the entire enemy team at the same time in a pug vs pug situation, they'll rez together and zerg a node together, so be prepared for that.

Re winning/losing: I typically win more matches than I lose (guardian side, shadefallen server), but I think personal experience about this is very dependent on 'battlegroup', time-of-day, what kind of class you're playing, whether you queue with a guildie or two, whether you luck out with a 'semi-premade' on your side or get unlucky with the same on the other side, etc.

Stabs
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Reply #22 on: March 09, 2011, 07:56:50 AM

Quick guide to opponents:

Dude with the thing: priority target. Even if he is being healed still the priority target, cc healers if poss.

otherwise look at the bars.

Green + yellow = warrior, probably riftblade. Liable to run into the middle of 5 of you which is a good time to kill him. Do not attempt to solo.

Green + mauve = rogue. Squishy unless Bards. Bards have hundreds of gay looking buffs on their buff bar and fart out musical notes. Nuke with extreme prejudice if it's not a bard, ignore unless you have 3+ if Bard.

Green + blue in girly dress - mage. Provided by Trion to give people who think they're cleverer than everyone else a chance to theorycraft. Collect your free kill.

Green + blue in armour. Cleric. Go fight somewhere else unless it's the dude with the thing.
Arinon
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Reply #23 on: March 09, 2011, 10:08:25 AM

stuff

Completely agree with your points but having one of the best tactics be "get ahead and wait out the timer" is horrible.

The zone is also way too big.  It takes almost a minute on the regular mount to cross the zone.  The base design is pretty nice though.
Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #24 on: March 09, 2011, 09:30:54 PM

I finally got tired of it, and switched over to my Defiant character, and it was like night and day.  People got healed, people went after the fang, etc.  Strange thing is, if you dare to read the official forums, it's all bitching about how Guardians win every time in the WF's, which has never been my experience, from beta on.

Current win ratio in non-Black Garden warfronts (as Guardian): 100%. As in I literally have not been on a losing side. Every single Whitefall Steps has been 3-0, none of The Codex have been within 500 points.

Current win ratio in Black Garden warfronts (as Guardian): 25%. Usually 1-2 afk players, but besides that I have no idea.

This is in the 30+ bracket, but the Black Garden numbers come from level 15 on. But I was running Warfronts all last night and every non-BG game was a completely cakewalk. Totally mysterious.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 09:33:38 PM by Ice Cream Emperor »
Koyasha
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Reply #25 on: March 09, 2011, 09:35:07 PM

My experience thus far as Defiant has been a decent mix of winning and losing on Black Garden and Codex, with Whitefall Steppes so far being amazingly skewed toward Guardian.  I've only seen us score two points out of somewhere upwards of 20 games, one of which I personally scored.  The one game we won was because we played a really heavy defense strategy as I outlined above - got the crystal once, ran down the timer without ever letting them touch ours.

I don't know if they have separate 'battlegroups' or if it's all one big pool, but I do see a lot of people from Lotham and Sunrest, so I suspect it's separate battlegroups.

-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth
Nebu
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Reply #26 on: March 13, 2011, 02:54:18 PM

I was getting a little discouraged with PvP in this game and started ... gasp... reading the forums to find a needle in a haystack. 

I came across this and it really changed my perception. 

Quote
I was actually getting discouraged about my rogue thinking they were in need of love and then dueled my warrior friend. now he beat me twice and once we both died at the same time. However, it wasn't that large of a disparity. This told me a couple things.

1) Having group support for pvp in this game is huge. If you solo grind BGs figure on dieing a lot.

There is a certain synergy in group mechanics that make all 4 classes work well and if you are not taking advantage of this (or cant) then it is going to be rough.

2) Gear and practice are very significant.

Everytime I modify my talents I have to get my timing down all over again. Try and find a guild or group of players you can do warfronts with. This will make it somewhat less painful.

Also remember there will always be individuals who eat, breath, and sleep for gaming and it is nearly all they do in life. Casual players will always be at some disadvantage here either through gear, shear amount of practice etc. Another aspect if you are defiant, at least on my server, there is a huge shortage of healers. Even our clerics consider themselves DPS classes. Some of the warfronts I go against the Guardians are almost half healers. Obviously you are going to get rolled hard in situations like this.

So understand that there are numerous dynamics at play here. Find some warriors, Rogues and clerics to duel and then address specific shortcomings you feel you have. You can also discover the soft spot on the other classes. In the end, if you still feel you do not have enough tools to be viable, at least you'll have a better understanding of how each class functions and can make better claims than, "I went into a WF and got steamrolled please make me more powerful". This doesn't help Trion make decisions and you will likely just get a flame thread with little value for the development of your class.

Good Luck

It reminded me a lot of DAoC.  The class balance in that game, while better, still had problems in 1v1.  When you got 8 skilled players fighting against 8 other skilled players, the game balance was MUCH better.  Perhaps I need to start playing BG's with a premade.  Since a few of my DAoC friends are back playing Rift, it may even be possible. 

Hope that cheers a few others here up. 

Edit: Look.  I'm being semi-positive!  awesome, for real

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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