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Author Topic: Soul opinions  (Read 126883 times)
Ghambit
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Reply #140 on: March 10, 2011, 10:49:33 AM

It was the point about an 'overlevelled cleric tank spec'. You don't need an overlevelled cleric tank spec - a level 18 cleric or rogue specced for tanking is going to be just as good a tank, or better depending.

Until the rogue teleport through the floor of course - all bets are off then... ;-)

How many <lvl30 pure tank specced clerics have you come across?
Aint a whole lot of em 'cause they're lvling like everyone else.

I said overlvled for the simple fact it's EASIER for a meatshield warrior at the proper lvl to tank during lvling-time than a more jack-of-all-trades cleric.  Let alone hold aggro.
It's the same argument with trying to turn a Dominator into a dps-whore, it's POSSIBLE, but easier with a few xtra lvls and not likely unless you completely tweak your Role.

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Draegan
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Reply #141 on: March 10, 2011, 11:25:50 AM

If properly geared, clerics can tank Expert dungeons just fine. 
Maledict
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Reply #142 on: March 10, 2011, 11:57:59 AM



How many <lvl30 pure tank specced clerics have you come across?
Aint a whole lot of em 'cause they're lvling like everyone else.

You can buy your second role before you even leave the starting area. I've probably met more pure tank rogues and clerics than I have warriors in the game! I very much doubt there are warriors levelling in pure tank spcs either, I'm sure they swap roles as well.

Really, need to get away from this idea that the warrior is more likely to be the tank at *any* level. We have multiple specs, and lots of peopel seem to like tanking on their rogues or clerics - certainly there's enough folk running around with full tanking specs on the class. When someone says tank, it's cleric / rogue / warrior, and all three are equally capable and equally likely in my experience to be the tank.
Nebu
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Reply #143 on: March 10, 2011, 12:02:40 PM

When someone says tank, it's cleric / rogue / warrior, and all three are equally capable and equally likely in my experience to be the tank.

I wouldn't say that they're equally capable, but all three can certainly do the job with a good group. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Maledict
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Reply #144 on: March 10, 2011, 12:05:20 PM

When someone says tank, it's cleric / rogue / warrior, and all three are equally capable and equally likely in my experience to be the tank.

I wouldn't say that they're equally capable, but all three can certainly do the job with a good group.  

Well okay. Rogues and clerics are the best tanks, but at a pinch a warrior can substitute if you can cope with the lower threat and surviveability... :)
Cadaverine
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Reply #145 on: March 10, 2011, 12:16:24 PM

Need some advice: 

Now that my cleric has started to close in on the end game, I decided to play a mage... again.  I'm finding that the class is VERY squishy in the early going and wondered if anyone could suggest a best way to get through the 20's with the least frustration.  I made it to 20 with a warlock build and I enjoy it, but adds make my life a challenge.  I'd also prefer to not play a pet class... if that's even possible.

Thanks.

I am currently level 13 with my Warlock/Necro.  I started out Chloro, but I just don't care much for it.  Maybe after 20 - 30, when I can get deeper in to it, it'll be better.  Anyway, 1 - 12 was ok, but I was likely screwed if I got adds.  After I got the stalwart pet at 12, it got a lot easier, as it will actually hold aggro.  Still feels weak compared to the BM, and Ranger pets, though.  Between Life Leech from the Warlock tree, and Essence Link from the Necro tree, I can handle 3 mobs of my level at a time.  Once I get Soul Purge at 16, I understand it gets pretty easy from there on.

After level 21, if you're really adamant about ditching the pet, you could do Lock/Pyro/X.

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Ashamanchill
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Reply #146 on: March 10, 2011, 12:57:46 PM

If properly geared, clerics can tank Expert dungeons just fine. 

I was gonna ask you this Draegan but you beat me to the punch. Sweet.

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Ghambit
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Reply #147 on: March 10, 2011, 01:14:43 PM

If properly geared, clerics can tank Expert dungeons just fine. 

I was gonna ask you this Draegan but you beat me to the punch. Sweet.

So now we're gettin into gear?   Ohhhhh, I see.
Long live the clerical gear-whore I guess.

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Sobelius
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Reply #148 on: March 10, 2011, 01:15:48 PM


I am currently level 13 with my Warlock/Necro.  I started out Chloro, but I just don't care much for it.  Maybe after 20 - 30, when I can get deeper in to it, it'll be better.  Anyway, 1 - 12 was ok, but I was likely screwed if I got adds.  After I got the stalwart pet at 12, it got a lot easier, as it will actually hold aggro.  Still feels weak compared to the BM, and Ranger pets, though.  Between Life Leech from the Warlock tree, and Essence Link from the Necro tree, I can handle 3 mobs of my level at a time.  Once I get Soul Purge at 16, I understand it gets pretty easy from there on.

After level 21, if you're really adamant about ditching the pet, you could do Lock/Pyro/X.

I really like putting 6 in Elementalist then combine with any two other non-pet classes. The little pet rock holds aggro really well, and the Revitalization you get at 6 gives such a good out-of-combat exchange rate of charge for mana that I can start almost any fight with a full bar of mana.


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Ashamanchill
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Reply #149 on: March 10, 2011, 01:40:28 PM

If properly geared, clerics can tank Expert dungeons just fine. 

I was gonna ask you this Draegan but you beat me to the punch. Sweet.

So now we're gettin into gear?   Ohhhhh, I see.
Long live the clerical gear-whore I guess.

Huh? I just wanted to know if it was possible for cleric tank specs to, you know, actually tank at the end game content. Mainly because I don't want to level my warrior.

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Quinton
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Reply #150 on: March 10, 2011, 02:58:18 PM

I really like putting 6 in Elementalist then combine with any two other non-pet classes. The little pet rock holds aggro really well, and the Revitalization you get at 6 gives such a good out-of-combat exchange rate of charge for mana that I can start almost any fight with a full bar of mana.

I did this last night with Pyromancer and it does work well -- I get a decent pet and a fast mp recharge.  The only thing I miss from Necromancer is the ability to drain HP.  In a party situation with a healer around that shouldn't be an issue though/
veredus
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Reply #151 on: March 10, 2011, 03:56:47 PM

In beta I played a Stormcaller/Elementalist/Chloromancer to high 20's. Just put 6 points into chloro to get bloom, 6 points into Ele to get revitalize and everything else into Stormcaller. With chloro heal, Ele shield, pet and Stormcaller AE can usually do fine with adds.
Stabs
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Reply #152 on: March 12, 2011, 05:11:01 PM

I've been having a lot of fun with Cleric. My Rogue (which I adore) has been shelved in favour of Cleric.

Firstly, Purifier with some basic pvp nounce is utterly broken in warfronts. I have macroed all my cooldowns on top of a healing flare, one macro for me, one for other people. I can run across entire maps, vaulting walls and U-turning while spamming heals without ever stopping (until I eventually run out of mana). The guy I play with and I did some Whitefront(?) Plains maps today and we lost 2, won 5 with him scoring at least twice in every win. Our wins were all 3-0 despite some people on the Rift forums already insisting the best strat is to score once then turtle. Also we were 32 in a 30-39 battlegroup.

People are really bad at snaring, I don't think anyone mana drained me, people don't even move well so turning 90 degrees is enough to shut down the keyboard turning Champion chasing me.

And the heals really over power damage unless we're massively out-numbered. Quite a few people don't seem to be able to hurt a moving target anyway, I guess relying on slow cast spells. It's really easy to neuter Sabs and dotting classes because unlike WoW the decurse button lights up if there's something to decurse. So it's Pavlovian - button lit? if yes, press button.

Also people don't know where the power-ups are, one time we went through a 5 v 4 fight at the base entrance, ran past the 3 guarding the stone. I shielded him so their attacks failed to interrupt, then he grabbed the stone, grabbed the nearby speed boost, ran to the middle for the next speed boost. They left him to score while wailing on me 3 vs 1 but I just tanked them and ran across the map. Eventually they gave up for easier targets. I mounted up and rode across the map eventually catching my partner at the turn-in point.

In pve instances things are tougher. I find it rather hard to solo heal. I can just about do it but I really miss a heal my tank + heal the dps too. Because my best heal is a 3 second cast if I am casting on the tank and a dps spikes low I can't really do much. I'm committed to the big heal, throwing a 3 second cast on a dps then going back to the tank means a 6 second hiatus which I'm not always willing to do. One poor guildie died to all 4 bosses in FC. (In my defence he was a little under-level, the impregnate from the spider practically one-shot him).

It all becomes cake if I have support. A bard or a second healer makes life so smooth.

So anyway if you pvp definitely recommend Purifier, having an utter blast with mine.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 05:14:39 PM by Stabs »
Draegan
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Reply #153 on: March 13, 2011, 10:20:47 AM

If properly geared, clerics can tank Expert dungeons just fine. 

I was gonna ask you this Draegan but you beat me to the punch. Sweet.

So now we're gettin into gear?   Ohhhhh, I see.
Long live the clerical gear-whore I guess.

Uhhh... Any class that wants to tank needs proper gear. 
Ghambit
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Reply #154 on: March 13, 2011, 01:48:29 PM

Speaking of which, seems like every other drop I get is a cleric-tank item.  Endurance out the ass.

p.s.
I was treating it as "all things being equal"

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Sobelius
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Reply #155 on: March 14, 2011, 01:11:07 PM

I really like putting 6 in Elementalist then combine with any two other non-pet classes. The little pet rock holds aggro really well, and the Revitalization you get at 6 gives such a good out-of-combat exchange rate of charge for mana that I can start almost any fight with a full bar of mana.

I did this last night with Pyromancer and it does work well -- I get a decent pet and a fast mp recharge.  The only thing I miss from Necromancer is the ability to drain HP.  In a party situation with a healer around that shouldn't be an issue though/

I have to back-pedal on this a bit. After hearing Nebu talk about it, I tried switching to full Necro at 24; the PvE game now feels like it moved into easy mode. The high power skeletal knight does great and the combination of dps with healing is super effective. Adding in the ability to drain your pet at any time, multiple times, for mana regen, and  I very rarely have to run from multiple mobs. If it gets hairy, I fire off feign death and as soon as the local situation allows, stand up and insta-summon the Knight.

I'm experimenting with 2nd and 3rd classes. So far Chloro (for Bloom) adds a nice instant heal, and I mix that with Dom for the CC if I'm getting a little too overwhelmed. I had Warlock for a while but liked Chloro better.

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Quinton
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Reply #156 on: March 14, 2011, 11:29:18 PM

Yup, I've been doing main Necro since lv12 or so and it is crazy survivable.  Feign death is a very nice "redo" button once you have it.  I rarely see any downtime because I drain enemy buffs for mana and drain enemy HP to recharge self and pet HP.
Nebu
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Reply #157 on: March 15, 2011, 07:15:36 AM

Do the Chloro "heal other" spells work on necro pets?  If so, a necro/chloro would be stupid overpowered.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
kubodhi
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Reply #158 on: March 15, 2011, 09:09:32 AM

Whole lot of love for the reaver, interesting.

I realize this comment was a few weeks ago and that there have been subsequent updates/patches, but I'd like to rehash how amazing the reaver can be.  Here's a build that melts faces (primarily in AoE-friendly environments, like questing in mob-dense areas or any instance) while having practically no threat & survivability issues:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1cALk.Vuqtzukqbk.xMszdcMM.V0o

End battles with 6-8 mobs 1-2 levels higher than you with 80%+ health.
Kill 5 mobs at a time only slightly slower than many classes kill one, with little to no downtime between battles.
Boost the damage of your entire party with Enraged Essence (and also make every pyromancer you party with completely fall in love with you thanks to Improved Freeze Armor's +20% fire damage).
Reduce the load on your healer with a constant stream of self-healing (Soul Feast + Soul Devour, not to mention Master of the Abyss on a 90 second CD), solid blanket damage reduction (Improved Avatar of Water for 10% reduction + 5% from 5/5 Imbued Armor and up to 10% more from 5/5 Power From The Masses, automatic block abilities (Stoneshield), and several interrupts/fears.

I'm consistently pulling 33-38% of my instance groups' total damage as the tank with this build (not quite L50 so I haven't filled out the Champion section or all of the RB stuff yet).  Yes, I realize that the pugs I'm playing with may not be super skilled - but I'm also generally finishing instances in less than an hour with few to no party deaths so I haven't been grouping with many complete scrubs.

PvP has been hilarious - virtually the only people that have killed me in random world PvP have been gank squads 5+ levels higher than me, and people don't get away from me with Avatar of Wind and Freeze Armor, though admittedly my self-healing really takes a dive (though not to the point of being useless) in single combat.

I would recommend leveling up with zero-point Beastmaster instead of Champion for the pet if you're halfway decent at the pet-control mechanics, but if not, Bull Rush from Champion may be preferable.  The 0-point pet's level limit is just starting to make it less desirable around L39-40, meriting the switch.

Also, and let me stress this - I am completely open to critiques/suggestions/questions.  I feel like this is a solid build but if it appears I've misunderstood synergies, please feel free (even encouraged) to point them out to me.  One thing about this build that I kind of personally like is the lack of reaction/follow-up abilities combined with CDs that need to be used intelligently making it unfriendly to the macro-reliant faceroll types.  Stick with Paladin if that's what you like.

 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Threash
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Reply #159 on: March 15, 2011, 09:19:12 AM

I think 20% less damage when under 30% hit points beats 5% less damage all the time.  Great build though.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #160 on: March 15, 2011, 09:41:21 AM

reaver/riftblade is awesome for solo though I got with a 0 point warlord for the aoe -5% hit debuff on mobs, combined with the -5% hit debuff from your disease(which can be aoe) things miss a LOT, plus beastmaster pet dies too much and resummoning in pvp is a pain in the ass.

for tanking though I go reaver/paladin, reaver dps is already crazy and i have no troubling with aggro so riftblade doesnt bring as much to the table that the paladin survivability does, just having two tanking specs alone gives me a ton more hp. Not to mention thing like highly increased block, 20% to all threat and a couple oshit cooldowns it makes for a beast in both dps and tanking.

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kubodhi
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Reply #161 on: March 15, 2011, 09:46:12 AM

Cool - thanks for the input, all.
kubodhi
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Reply #162 on: March 15, 2011, 10:49:03 AM

for tanking though I go reaver/paladin, reaver dps is already crazy and i have no troubling with aggro so riftblade doesnt bring as much to the table that the paladin survivability does, just having two tanking specs alone gives me a ton more hp. Not to mention thing like highly increased block, 20% to all threat and a couple oshit cooldowns it makes for a beast in both dps and tanking.

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1cAhk.Vuqtzukqbk.E0ozccr.V0o would probably be stronger from a tanking perspective, at the cost of DPS (at least I would think).
Draegan
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Reply #163 on: March 15, 2011, 10:52:35 AM

Do the Chloro "heal other" spells work on necro pets?  If so, a necro/chloro would be stupid overpowered.

Yes.  But it isn't really needed.  Soul Link or whatever that charge spell is, works enough for you.  Just go Necro/Lock and use the Lock's DD and the necros DoTs.
Nebu
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Reply #164 on: March 15, 2011, 11:21:34 AM

Yes.  But it isn't really needed.  Soul Link or whatever that charge spell is, works enough for you.  Just go Necro/Lock and use the Lock's DD and the necros DoTs.

Thanks.  I'm just using the necro/lock combo to level.  My goal is to be primarily Chloro... as soon as I figure out how it plays.   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #165 on: March 15, 2011, 11:50:51 AM

Why do you like champion so much as a third soul? Doesn't seem to add much besides that little kick/knockback and I'd go at LEAST 44 points in reaver, shroud of entropy is too good a cooldown to not have for tanking.

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0cAhE.xuqtuukIfk.N0Rukock

That's kind of a rough draft, may not even need to to that deep into paladin but warlord 0 point talent of -5% hit is too good for a tank to pass up I think.

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Nebu
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Reply #166 on: March 15, 2011, 11:51:51 AM

Wouldn't you want a paladin for tanking?

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kubodhi
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Reply #167 on: March 15, 2011, 12:43:05 PM

Why do you like champion so much as a third soul? Doesn't seem to add much besides that little kick/knockback and I'd go at LEAST 44 points in reaver, shroud of entropy is too good a cooldown to not have for tanking.

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0cAhE.xuqtuukIfk.N0Rukock

That's kind of a rough draft, may not even need to to that deep into paladin but warlord 0 point talent of -5% hit is too good for a tank to pass up I think.
That looks like an awesome tanking build for sure - so perhaps I need to clarify a bit on the motivation behind my build design.  I understand there are plenty of ways to make the build better at one thing or another, and with roles being available specialization is probably the right path to go down, but if you're looking for a single build that appears to be good at everything, I can highly recommend the one I posted.

I'm currently L41 or 42, and admittedly haven't seen any content past RD yet.  I can tell you that up to this point I've had no survivability issues with even a halfway competent pug healer, and damage output is crazy with this build.  Sacrificing DPS to increase your tanking ability is likely required for endgame, but while I'm leveling, this has proven time and time again to be a very effective build.  Once I get up to 50, I'm sure I'll have to fill my roles with more specialized builds (heavy tank, heavy melee DPS, heavy ranged DPS, etc).

Great tips, and thanks for the feedback!

Wouldn't you want a paladin for tanking?
That's definitely one way to go - just not the way I went for leveling.   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 12:46:48 PM by kubodhi »
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #168 on: March 15, 2011, 12:48:56 PM

Wouldn't you want a paladin for tanking?

Pure paladin tanking is good mitigation but not so great for threat gen and aggro, also very single target with a couple exceptions. Reaver brings a lot to the table in the form of aoe/self healing/debuffs and some really good cooldowns so I like having that as the primary spec.

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Nebu
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Reply #169 on: March 15, 2011, 12:53:56 PM

Pure paladin tanking is good mitigation but not so great for threat gen and aggro, also very single target with a couple exceptions. Reaver brings a lot to the table in the form of aoe/self healing/debuffs and some really good cooldowns so I like having that as the primary spec.

You guys teach me stuff daily. 

Warrior is the only class I haven't played to 30.  I should give one a try. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ginaz
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Reply #170 on: March 15, 2011, 04:55:38 PM

Whole lot of love for the reaver, interesting.

I realize this comment was a few weeks ago and that there have been subsequent updates/patches, but I'd like to rehash how amazing the reaver can be.  Here's a build that melts faces (primarily in AoE-friendly environments, like questing in mob-dense areas or any instance) while having practically no threat & survivability issues:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1cALk.Vuqtzukqbk.xMszdcMM.V0o

End battles with 6-8 mobs 1-2 levels higher than you with 80%+ health.
Kill 5 mobs at a time only slightly slower than many classes kill one, with little to no downtime between battles.
Boost the damage of your entire party with Enraged Essence (and also make every pyromancer you party with completely fall in love with you thanks to Improved Freeze Armor's +20% fire damage).
Reduce the load on your healer with a constant stream of self-healing (Soul Feast + Soul Devour, not to mention Master of the Abyss on a 90 second CD), solid blanket damage reduction (Improved Avatar of Water for 10% reduction + 5% from 5/5 Imbued Armor and up to 10% more from 5/5 Power From The Masses, automatic block abilities (Stoneshield), and several interrupts/fears.

I'm consistently pulling 33-38% of my instance groups' total damage as the tank with this build (not quite L50 so I haven't filled out the Champion section or all of the RB stuff yet).  Yes, I realize that the pugs I'm playing with may not be super skilled - but I'm also generally finishing instances in less than an hour with few to no party deaths so I haven't been grouping with many complete scrubs.

PvP has been hilarious - virtually the only people that have killed me in random world PvP have been gank squads 5+ levels higher than me, and people don't get away from me with Avatar of Wind and Freeze Armor, though admittedly my self-healing really takes a dive (though not to the point of being useless) in single combat.

I would recommend leveling up with zero-point Beastmaster instead of Champion for the pet if you're halfway decent at the pet-control mechanics, but if not, Bull Rush from Champion may be preferable.  The 0-point pet's level limit is just starting to make it less desirable around L39-40, meriting the switch.

Also, and let me stress this - I am completely open to critiques/suggestions/questions.  I feel like this is a solid build but if it appears I've misunderstood synergies, please feel free (even encouraged) to point them out to me.  One thing about this build that I kind of personally like is the lack of reaction/follow-up abilities combined with CDs that need to be used intelligently making it unfriendly to the macro-reliant faceroll types.  Stick with Paladin if that's what you like.

 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?


My warrior is using a reaver/riftblade/champ build and I find the dps and survivability in both pve and pve to be very good.  I would recommend switching the  5 points in Titan's Strength in the Champ. soul to Take No Prisoners since you won't be using enough melee abilities to make the extra 10% str. worth it.  Your a spell caster in plate and Take No Prisoners will increase the damage of Flame Burst, which is the ability I use the most that consumes attack points, by 10%. IMO you should also be using a 1h+shield, making the extra str. even more irrelevant.
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Reply #171 on: March 15, 2011, 04:57:32 PM

So I leveled up to 32 or so as primary bard with ranger second and BD just for the zero point dodge. Loved it and still use it in groups but it got a bit dull solo so I switched to my other role which I haven't really played at all - nightblade/assassin and wow! It's a very task specific build and has to drink after every other fight solo (my bard never drinks questing) but OMG the damage increase is insane.

I LOVE the soul system.

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Nerf
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Reply #172 on: March 15, 2011, 06:02:20 PM

Up to 26 so far on my necro/pyro/dom mage - full necro, 7 or 8 in dom for squirrel and 2 insta DDs, and 0 in pyro for another insta DD.

The upgraded skeletons are awesome, and I have a feeling the mage skele should be badass in pvp, but it doesn't seem as good as the stabby damg skeleton right now, as the stabby guy cranks out some insane damage with multiple deathly calling stacks, necro and looming demise.

Pve is EZ-mode up to 3 or 4 mobs, after that it depends on if the skeleton's AOE taunt grabs everything.  The DPS is pretty sick too - I was fucking around with moki's warrior earlier and my necro killed the same stuff at least 2x as fast at the same level.

Wanting to try out some other roles, but I'm afraid of fucking up and having bad combos/useless roles - they really need to put in the option to respec soul choices themselves, not just points within souls.

Also, is archmage the only pvp soul for mage, or are there others too?
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Reply #173 on: March 15, 2011, 06:32:38 PM

they really need to put in the option to respec soul choices themselves, not just points within souls.

Also, is archmage the only pvp soul for mage, or are there others too?

You can respec your choices. Get a respec (0 points allocated), and you can click on the soul within the tree window to replace it with another.

Yeah, archmage is the only one.

Had to give up my low point Elementalist third soul in the end - the pet just doesn't scale once it hits 30, and it was getting near instagibbed by standard lvl 38 mobs. Swapped out for 0 point Chloro instead - Radiant Spores is really rather good, and should always scale given that it is 100% of damage returned as healing.
kubodhi
Terracotta Army
Posts: 34


Reply #174 on: March 16, 2011, 06:29:29 AM

My warrior is using a reaver/riftblade/champ build and I find the dps and survivability in both pve and pve to be very good.  I would recommend switching the  5 points in Titan's Strength in the Champ. soul to Take No Prisoners since you won't be using enough melee abilities to make the extra 10% str. worth it.  Your a spell caster in plate and Take No Prisoners will increase the damage of Flame Burst, which is the ability I use the most that consumes attack points, by 10%. IMO you should also be using a 1h+shield, making the extra str. even more irrelevant.
Ok, this looks like an opportunity for me to learn a bit about game mechanics.  Reavers don't benefit from +spell power, so I had to assume their damage was based on attack power.  Strength gives me attack power.  Does strength not increase the damage of my non-physical abilities?  If not, is there anything that does?
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