The case against Lance Armstrong

[ghost]

Fuck you all.  You knew what I meant.  


And the Thunder will be going down. 

[Ingmar]

Charlie Pierce nails it, IMO:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8071810/the-roger-clemens-verdict-our-senseless-national-drug-hysteria

[Paelos]

Link no work for me.

[ghost]

The link works okay.  Maybe it's a problem with your work blocking sites?

[Paelos]

Works now.

[ghost]

It's a pretty decent article.  I think that the Clemens deal was an egregious waste of money.  I don't know a whole lot about Edwards' deal because I didn't pay attention to it. 

[Paelos]

Of course it was a waste of money. So was the Bonds thing. The fact they even made them go before congress at all was dumb.

[ghost]

Speaking of wastes of money, and to get back on topic a little bit, it appears that the USADA is gearing up for a lengthy and costly legal battle versus Armstrong. 

About a week into its sanctioning process, the antidoping agency already finds itself mired in what could be a long legal dispute, one that lasts months, if not years.

“I don’t think you need to be a crystal-ball gazer to anticipate that it’s going to be rough and tumble from here,” said David Howman, director general of the World Anti-Doping Agency. “It’s a very serious charge, and now we have to respect the process.”

I would have to ask at what point does this become a circus sideshow rather than something productive?  My thought is that it is already there.  What is the point of trying to prove that Armstrong doped?  Nobody will win from this mess.

[Nebu]

Sometimes negative media attention is as good as positive media attention... particularly for a sport that is losing fan interest in the US.

[sickrubik]

From everything I can tell working in the industry and talking to folks outside the sport/industry, outsiders tend to see cycling = Armstrong, as he is probably he only cross over "star". So, bad press on the only name you know attached to the sport does not make for good press.

Also, the sport is actually growing in terms of recognition in the US. Having strong athletes/teams that can compete in Europe effectively, mixed with some higher profile races (Tour of California for instance) is helping the profile quite a bit.

[Salamok]

I was actually going to bring up Tennis as one of the worst offenders, who don't really bother checking on it.

How did what's her face test positive for coke a few years ago if no one is checking?

edit: Personally I think they are tackling the performance enhancing drugs on the wrong level.  My main issue with it is it promotes drug use in non professional atheletes, after all if your hero is using em why not you?  They should make all these fucks arguing over their millions/billions of dollars they get paid to play for or own a team pony up to the High School testing fund.  I also hate the whole PC bullshit of not using profiling to pick your test subjects, the top 10% should be tested at every single friggen event they participate in as well as being tested during training.

[ghost]

Cycling in the US as a sport people do themselves is growing at quite a rapid pace.  It's similar to soccer in that regard.  I will always ask a kid what sports they play in my exams and it is rare to see one who hasn't played soccer at some point.  You see cyclists everywhere on the roads these days.  It's quite common even in backwards Texas.  It's the spectator portion of these sports that suffer.  I think soccer may have reached its peak in the US. 

[Paelos]

Well yeah, because often watching floptacular soccer is about as much fun as watching someone bike around.

Hint. Not much.

[sickrubik]

Texas is one of the largest cycling markets. Seriously.

[Paelos]

Texas is one of the largest cycling markets. Seriously.

Yeah, but people don't want to watch it. That's my point.

[sickrubik]

Texas is one of the largest cycling markets. Seriously.

Yeah, but people don't want to watch it. That's my point.

I was responding to this bit: "It's quite common even in backwards Texas."

Bold text is my emphasis.

[ghost]

Texas may be a large cycling market.  It doesn't rank well on the best cities for cycling lists nor on the overall state ranking of cycling friendly states, however, so that would qualify as backwards.  And where I live (San Antonio) is barely above banjos and pitchfork level when it comes to "sharing the road".  The popularity of the sport in Texas is probably high because it is relatively flat compared to, say, Colorado and it is warm most of the time.  

That still doesn't mean people are watching cycling, as Paelos said.  

[Teleku]

Yeah.  Cycling as a hobby is very popular across the entire US I'm sure, from what I've seen.  Cyclist doing road trips are everywhere in California (annoyingly.  Why must they ride of narrow but busy cliff roads?  All the cars get stuck behind them because trying to pass is a death sentence).  Nobody actually follows it as a sport, however.

[ghost]

Here's Bicycling.com's list of the top 50 cities for cycling.

[sickrubik]

Our third largest market (behind California and Colorado) is Texas. By a pretty big margin. And we're relatively small compared to some of our competitors. Keep in mind that Bicycling's list is about the quality. I won't dispute that (and can't as I don't live there). Again, my comment was directed purely at the popularity of the sport/pastime.

However, given the increase exposure and bidding wars cities and companies are doing, at least in California, seems to indicate that there is SOME reason to think there's money in them thar hills.

(I've worked for a cycling apparel manufacturer for 12.5 years.)

EDIT: I will say that the industry is seriously suffering this year. More so than last year. And Nike did say "fuck this shit" a few years ago and bailed.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Yeah.  Cycling as a hobby is very popular across the entire US I'm sure, from what I've seen.  Cyclist doing road trips are everywhere in California (annoyingly.  Why must they ride of narrow but busy cliff roads?  All the cars get stuck behind them because trying to pass is a death sentence).  Nobody actually follows it as a sport, however.

Part of my route to work is a popular cycling route, apparently.  It's annoying as hell because it's a narrow road with no shoulders next to the river and when there is a larger pack or riders together, it can take forever to pass them.  Especially if they aren't riding anything close to single-file, either.  I really feel like telling them "Look, I get that you have a right to the road as well, but just remember that I'm bigger and will win any confrontations, especially if you dart out into the lane to move around another rider in the pack."

[ghost]

Sickrubic-  I don't doubt the numbers.  I see scads of cyclists all the time here in San Antonio, Austin and Dallas.  I haven't really encountered many in Houston, but I'm not there very much.  In Dallas several cyclists were killed by road raging drivers in the two years that my wife lived up there by herself.  San Antonio is almost as dangerous.  Austin is awesome, but it's a completely different deal than any of the other big Texas cities.  So when I say backwards, that statement wasn't necessarily meant to imply that there would be (or should be, necessarily) a low number of cyclists in an area, just that there are a lot more hurdles to those cyclists achieving a safe ride.  I think that's going to change, though, as the number of transplants in Texas increase and more and more people start cycling.  Road cycling is inherently dangerous, however, for just the reason that Rhyssa mentioned-  the bike will always lose.  Road bikes were the #3 most common reason that I had to see people in the emergency room for facial injuries back when I was going that thing, coming in significantly behind motorcycles and horses and just ahead of dog bites. 

[sickrubik]

So when I say backwards, that statement wasn't necessarily meant to imply that there would be (or should be, necessarily) a low number of cyclists in an area, just that there are a lot more hurdles to those cyclists achieving a safe ride.

That I can't argue with at all, and pretty true of most places.

As a point, people in the industry and hobby/sport don't really need to be told how dangerous it is. We've all lost friends.

[ghost]

It's really awful.  But I think that there is a lesson in it, and it's not that you guys need to be educated.  I do think that the average Joe that goes out to buy a Trek to be like Lance doesn't have a clue how dangerous it can be.  My wife and I stopped road cycling for that reason.  I don't think that bike shops do nearly enough to educate their customers on the dangers of road biking. 

[DraconianOne]

Bradley Wiggins' response when asked about the belief that winners of the TdF must be doping.

[Paelos]

Yeah pardon me if I think he's full of shit. The first go-to now when confronted is to become vehemently defensive. After seeing this exact kind of response with baseball players, I don't buy it from anybody. Words are wind, especially angry ones. Prove it.

[ghost]

The proof is in the pudding, Wiggo.  Every winner since Indurain has been implicated in doping, other than Evans.  Maybe they're clean now, but the past 15 plus years indicates not.  And when Indurain was racing there weren't the controls that they have now, so who knows with him.  He will never admit to doping, that's for sure, but Bjarne Riis did and he was a big competitor of Indurain.  

Addendum-  Wiggins destroyed the field today.  He beat Evans by over a minute on the time trial.  Oddly enough his biggest competition seems to be Froome.

[sickrubik]

The french are also VERY VERY hostile to riders from outside Europe.

[Sir T]

Lancy baby is suing meanies and telling them to LEAVE BRITNEY HIM ALONE!!! The Judge was not impressed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/09/lance-armstrong-usada-doping-charges-lawsuit_n_1660192.html

AUSTIN, Texas -- A federal judge handed Lance Armstrong a quick setback Monday as he went to court to save his seven Tour de France titles and his reputation as one of the greatest cyclists ever.

Armstrong filed a lawsuit aimed at preventing the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency from moving ahead with charges that he used performance-enhancing drugs throughout much of his long career.

But within hours, U.S. District Court Judge Sam Sparks in Austin dismissed the 80-page complaint. He said it seemed more intended to whip up public opinion in Armstrong's favor than focus on legal arguments.

Sparks, however, did not rule on the merits of Armstrong's claims and will let him refile the lawsuit. Armstrong attorney Tim Herman said he will do that, possibly on Tuesday.

...

The judge was not impressed with a filing that dedicated dozens of pages to Armstrong's career history and long-standing disputes with anti-doping officials.

"This Court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong's desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement or vilification of Defendants, by sifting through eighty mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims," Sparks wrote.

Ouch.

[ghost]

Yeah pardon me if I think he's full of shit. The first go-to now when confronted is to become vehemently defensive. After seeing this exact kind of response with baseball players, I don't buy it from anybody. Words are wind, especially angry ones. Prove it.

Huh? 

Sky investigating team doctor.....

[Pezzle]

His lawyer(s?) refiled hours later challenging jurisdiction, statute of limitations, rights violations etc.  The USADA gave Armstrong a 30 day extension on his decision to arbitrate.  Considering the USADA wants him to surrender his tour victories and retire, why not go to court?  If they had test evidence, why is this dragging out?   

[ghost]

Because the USADA doesn't have very good evidence (which would be strong test sample results) and they probably don't have really good witnesses, e.g. Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, other dopey mcdopes, etc. 

[Sir T]

Its not uncommon to grant extensions. That way the defense cant say they were rushed unprepared into a court case and its all bullshit -> 15 appeals. They are ensuring this case is watertight and the conviction stands.

[Pezzle]

It will be interesting to see what evidence they have, should this actually make it to court. 

[DraconianOne]

Yeah pardon me if I think he's full of shit.

A less ranty Wiggins writes in the Guardian today about his standpoint on doping.