Get your Master's Thesis für just 2k$!

[Mosesandstick]

For my master's, one of the course admins I talked to said that they probably wouldn't be able to punish students for handing in work late because the guidelines for late work had not been outlined beforehand in any documentation.

[K9]

I know on my degree a lot of grading was done by postgrads, with the course convenor generally having to moderate the grades after marking (post-grads tend to mark papers according to the standards they are held too, which tends to be a bit harsh on first years). Overall I felt my grading was pretty fair; I came out with a good 2:1, I could have made it a first, but I probably would have had to sacrifice most or all of my extracurricular activities, and I feel they added sufficient value in their own right.

They did come down hard on late submissions though, that was something they were very clear about.

I have no idea if anyone was using any external essay-writing services. I'd guess it is possible, although it seems unlikely. I know that as a post grad I have done quite a bit of proof-reading for current undergrads, although I don't charge (I can read an essay in ~20 minutes usually, and I only really do it for people I like), I'm not sure that's quite the same thing. I'd suspect that science papers are a bit harder to blag, but I could be way off.

[Mosesandstick]

As an UG the main papers we had to write were lab reports, which were set experiments on a rotation. If you were ever stuck you could just find a friend who'd done it, or even a student from previous years. No need to pay someone to write it for you...

[K9]

Well, in Biology we had to write a few more essays than y'all 

Labs were much as you described, but I was lucky to have a good lab partner and we'd just knock everything out together.

[Morat20]

Then, you got to the accounting major curriculum... If you didn't cut it, the professors would just tell you straight up after a test that this wasn't the major for you.

My thesis advisor also taught advanced database design and data mining. I barely passed his advanced database class, but didn't speak to him about my thesis until after I'd finished his data mining class.

His first words to me, as my thesis advisor, were "On the basis of your DB class performance, you did not seem to be a good candidate for a thesis. Thankfully, that seemed to have been an aberration, judging by your performance in my other classes."

I always rather appreciated that comment, strange as it was to be told "Good lord, you seemed to damn bad at this at first", simply because I found it refreshing to have an advisor that was serious about what was and was not acceptable. Of course, I still feel kinda weird at getting the degree based on my thesis "In Which I Try Some Approaches, Only One of Which Has Any Real Effect. And Not One I'd Anticipated". (My thesis was basically: Data mining problem, 3 varient approaches that have not been used for this class of problem, did it do much good?")

I get that failure is often as important as success, but damn did it suck writing pages of "And in summation, this had little effect on test outcomes. A more focused attempt might generate more useful data".

[Lantyssa]

It's not a failure if you think of it as discovering a given method will not function for a data set.  Rather invaluable, really.

[K9]

Negative results are important, but inherently less interesting to the wider audience.

[Lianka]

Negative results are important, but inherently less interesting to the wider audience.

Good to know.  I'm in the midst of trying to think of a topic for my thesis in CompLing, and I keep worrying that my ideas won't have much effect once I start testing!

[Morat20]

It's not a failure if you think of it as discovering a given method will not function for a data set.  Rather invaluable, really.

The one that did work was rather valuable in a way I almost missed, until I started running statistical analysis. I had really wide distribution of results. Except for that one method. While the overall results were WORSE, the results were clustered, with the median and mean values being very close.

Enough so that should I take another whack at the problem, that'd be required. I really should publish that, but I was really burnt out on writing after I was done.

Although part of me still wants to go fiddle with it a lot more, using what I learned. And another part of me keeps reminding me that I have a great neural network modification I want to try, and that I should find an appropriate dataset and try it out.....

And THAT sort of thing is why I keep looking at doctoral programs before remembering I have to earn a living. :)

[Paelos]

If you bring that to the internal auditing/ethics committees you will probably get a result.

You're dreaming. Grades are not what the internal auditing of a university gives two shits about. They are looking for financial issues. Also, the ethics committee isn't concerned about changing grading policies. They are concerned about things like "The professor failed me because I'm a minority" "The professor is trading sex for grades" and "The professor told me he would pass me if I paid him off"

[Khaldun]

You'll get a different hearing depending on whether a professor is adjunct, tenure-track or already tenured. Already tenured? Unless he or she is someone already in trouble for something else, you'll be told to eat a bag of dicks. Tenure-track? Well, they're not going to change your grade, but the professor might get some feedback that will discourage that kind of changing-the-terms-of-the-deal for future students. Adjunct? You might actually get your grade changed if you act fast, and if the person is already at least a bit unpopular, that might be their last contract.

Is that fair? Not especially.

Also, though, it depends on the institution. For-profit online bullshit places actually often change grades, because they really don't care about anything as long as you're paying up (or more pertinently, as long as the federal government is via loans). Some lower-tier publics will also often override faculty grades to keep the proles happy.

[Goumindong]

If you bring that to the internal auditing/ethics committees you will probably get a result.

You're dreaming. Grades are not what the internal auditing of a university gives two shits about. They are looking for financial issues. Also, the ethics committee isn't concerned about changing grading policies. They are concerned about things like "The professor failed me because I'm a minority" "The professor is trading sex for grades" and "The professor told me he would pass me if I paid him off"

If your professor breaks the contract between you and the school you have standing to sue(and will probably win). If they have a grading policy and you can show that they modified it to your detriment at the end of the term they will care. You may not be doing yourself any favors with that prof, but they will care.

[Khaldun]

IANAL, but I think it's ambivalent about whether what's said on a syllabus is formally contractual. If there's an overall grading policy that's formally described in official college publications (say, a course catalog) then that is different, and I think that commonly has been regarded as a contractual obligation. The wiggle room comes from the fact that in many circumstances universities can disavow aspects of what happens in an individual classroom--a professor cannot invariably obligate the institution to deliver on promises made by that professor, and institutions typically reserve the right to overrule or override serious errors of judgment by a professor as well. Whether an administration is willing to do that tends to vary a lot not just by the seniority or tenure status of the person involved but also by the quality or selectivity of the university and the degree of influence or power that faculty have. At lower-tier institutions with major athletic programs, it's not unknown for administrations to tinker with the grades of star athletes and just expect the faculty involved to keep their traps shut, for example.

[01101010]

IANAL, but I think it's ambivalent about whether what's said on a syllabus is formally contractual. If there's an overall grading policy that's formally described in official college publications (say, a course catalog) then that is different, and I think that commonly has been regarded as a contractual obligation. The wiggle room comes from the fact that in many circumstances universities can disavow aspects of what happens in an individual classroom--a professor cannot invariably obligate the institution to deliver on promises made by that professor, and institutions typically reserve the right to overrule or override serious errors of judgment by a professor as well. Whether an administration is willing to do that tends to vary a lot not just by the seniority or tenure status of the person involved but also by the quality or selectivity of the university and the degree of influence or power that faculty have. At lower-tier institutions with major athletic programs, it's not unknown for administrations to tinker with the grades of star athletes and just expect the faculty involved to keep their traps shut, for example.

At Miami, a syllabus was a contract. When my grad class went through our crash course on teaching requirements, the syllabus was first and foremost and the most stressed thing in the orientation. Granted, you could slip in a few clauses on how extra credit was at your discretion or the addition of pop quizzes may occur, but you lived and died by that 2-4 page "contract." I know for a fact students did challenge things that were not on the syllabus and won...not in my dept, but it happened enough for that to be a warning in the orientation as well. Not sure if this is universal at all schools, but at the "U" it was srs bizness.

edit: no spelling class offered in grad school 

[Goumindong]

Most syllabus contain all the formal requirements for a contract. There is offer, acceptance, and consideration.  Offer come in that the course is offered to students and the professor enacting the course at their discretion. Acceptance comes in that students register AND have the ability to withdraw. So long as they can withdraw after a syllabus has been presented (whether or not they receive their money back) there is acceptance of the syllabus. In short, registration ensures they have a spot in the course, not dropping the course accepts the terms of the course. This works precisely the same way as a "right to purchase" or "first right of refusal" contract works.

Consideration is the grades and course material (for the student) and the payment for the school/professor.

So long as people can withdraw at any time after the syllabus has been presented, its a contract.

[Lantyssa]

It wasn't emphasized as much at the time when I taught, however it's become rather important to list out the specifics for us as well.  Our undergrad chair is serious about student advocacy.  Changes in policy during the semester might fly with a good reason, however arbitrary ones won't.

I'll also note I registered my complaint when my lab grades got knocked down almost a full letter.  It didn't affect much, however my students appreciated the effort.  I also went to bat for one accused of cheating on a sample where she had a bad product and was later flagged for some silly reason.  I worked hard to give them good quizzes with 'real' situations and strongly emphasized that understanding was more important than yield.  They responded well to that.  My drop rate was low, I had their respect, and they seemed to enjoy the class for as much as possible given it was a six hour Saturday organic lab.

[Paelos]

While that's a good story, the end result was that the University didn't care about a grade issue. They responded to a cheating issue. That was my point.

EDIT: Also, a syllabus is not a legal document or a binding contract. Any lawyer will tell you that.

[01101010]

While that's a good story, the end result was that the University didn't care about a grade issue. They responded to a cheating issue. That was my point.

EDIT: Also, a syllabus is not a legal document or a binding contract. Any lawyer will tell you that.

Not in a court of law, but cases at Miami were brought to the dean and school administration after the student got the undergrad senate involved. I guess it all depends on how serious the college or university is about it.

[Paelos]

Exactly. Everything depends. It depends on the university, the class, the professor tenure, the time of year, the financial pressure, the race of the student involved, etc, etc. Grades are entirely subjective, and typically you'll find that most Universities (especially the larger ones) will try to avoid getting into grading policy wars because they are difficult to judge. Cheating is black and white. Finances are black and white. Grading isn't. A change in grading could be necessary or it might not be. There are constantly going to be mitigating factors that may/may not give the case merit.

The short answer is that while it always depends on the situation, you are dreaming if you believe that the University will automatically care if a prof changed his grading policy from the original syllabus simply because it consistutes some sort of binding agreement between the prof and the students. That is simply not the case at many institutions, and certainly has no bearing in any legal issues.

[Nebu]

EDIT: I had originally written a diatribe about the changes that I have observed with regard to professor control over the classroom and grading and opted it best to omit.  Rather, I'll leave you with the following observation:

Bringing a lawyer to any negotiation has a profound effect on the outcome.  Logic and ethics are rapidly replaced by fears of financial loss. 

[Goumindong]

Not in a court of law, but cases at Miami were brought to the dean and school administration after the student got the undergrad senate involved. I guess it all depends on how serious the college or university is about it.

Miami takes it seriously because it will hold up in a court of law and they don't want to have to test it, contracts don't have to be signed, sealed, and delivered, just offered (presented with course outline) and accepted (class not withdrawn from) whereby consideration is given to each party(evaluation of performance in exchange for cash). If the terms of the evaluation have been changed after the fact(in detriment of the student) then the contract has been materially altered in breech of the agreement.

You would have to show that you completed the material to the required grade based on the syllabus, but if you did, you would likely win.

[Khaldun]

I guarantee you in most subjects you would lose simply because there's a subjective judgment escape clause built intrinsically in the grading, before we get into any other consideration. The only classes where you'd have a chance would be course with nothing but multiple choice tests where the policy on curves/no curves was state unambiguously in advance in writing on the syllabus, where attendance, participation and other fuzzy issues weren't a part of the grade, again by explicit commitment on the syllabus. Anything else and there's plenty of escape room: a contract where one party has the right to redefine terms at will.

[Paelos]

Miami takes it seriously because it will hold up in a court of law

You're wrong. Do any sort of research on the subject and you'll see that a syllabus is in no terms a legal document. It's up to University policy how they enforce them.

I'll just crack out this smiley since I never used it before.  

[Goumindong]

Google answered my question in the affirmative. Though there are a lot of people who don't think that way, the lawyers seem to think that it will hold up so long as its possible to withdraw after the syllabus is presented.

[Paelos]

Google answered my question in the affirmative. Though there are a lot of people who don't think that way, the lawyers seem to think that it will hold up so long as its possible to withdraw after the syllabus is presented.

Great, now go ahead and link one legal precedent. Pick a case. Hell pick any case. Let me go ahead and clue you in on that because there isn't one. The fact you found one idiot on google to agree with you is not shocking. You should have noticed you had to sift through pages of  "No, it's not. Dumbass," to get there.

I'll go on further. While you seem to understand that a contract has to include offer, acceptance, and consideration, you are misinterpreting what the contract is actually about in the case of the teacher/student. The contract between the student and the university is that the student pays them for the right to receive an education at their institution, and access to all the resources. At no point are you paying for a grade. You are not an employee and you are not providing any exchange with your professor. Consideration requires that something of real value actually be exchanged in order for a legal contract to exist. A grade is an evaluation of performance, not a conditional good to be granted upon said peformance, and it has no real value since it cannot be freely traded.

[Goumindong]

Great, now go ahead and link one legal precedent. Pick a case. Hell pick any case. Let me go ahead and clue you in on that because there isn't one. The fact you found one idiot on google to agree with you is not shocking. You should have noticed you had to sift through pages of  "No, it's not. Dumbass," to get there.

Actually there isn't legal precedence because no one has sued over it(very likely because most situations are not "the professor changed the syllabus and therefore my grade is lower than it ought to be, and I can show it". They don't make it to court because they're rectified before they get to court). And the materials I found said "no its not unless" and then spelled out the requirements that do actually exist all over the nation. I.E. They said "a syllabus is not a contract because you cannot withdraw from courses". Well, you can withdraw from courses. And as such the situation changes.

I'll go further. You seem to understand what contracts are about, but not what value is about. Grades have value because they can be tracked specifically to post graduate income attainment. I.E. if you have higher grades you will get a better job. No one after the first employer cares, but the first employer cares and that starts. (Note: there are plenty of cases where standing is granted over a poor grade, standing implies consideration in this instance)

The ability to trade it after the fact has nothing to do with whether or not it is consideration. Case in point. Ratings on bonds. They're just evaluations(of the underlying bond characteristics), they cannot be traded. But they sure has hell have value. And if you get screwed on one you can sue.

I mean, do i have to explain non-pecuniary consideration, or how grades are valuable to you? I mean, you may go to school for an education, but I go to school for a certificate and one that says "A" on it is materially different than one that says "C". And if i meet the requirements to get certified at an A then damnit I better get the higher value certification.

[Mosesandstick]

Are you trying to convince him or make yourself feel good? Insulting people does not make an argument, and it's just going to get this thread sent to the shitter.

[Paelos]

I will just point out that you are comparing a rating of your education to the rating of a level 1 fair value asset. The law and accounting do not look at these as the same. If they did, every idiot would be suing over bad grades devaluing their employment potential.

[Goumindong]

I will just point out that you are comparing a rating of your education to the rating of a level 1 fair value asset. The law and accounting do not look at these as the same. If they did, every idiot would be suing over bad grades devaluing their employment potential.

No, they are pretty similar. The rating on an asset is a risk of default rating. It is intended to inform the purchasers of the quality of the asset. It has value only as it conveys information relating to the quality of the asset. Or, to be more explicit, it is the sale of due diligence. Such that the purchaser of the asset does not have to perform that task himself

Grades inform employers(or schools) of quality in much the same way. Consider yourself someone who works and grades as an information source to verify the quality of your human capital. Such that the purchaser of the labor does not have to perform the task of evaluating performance himself.

Both items are informing purchasers (of labor or assets) as to the quality of the product. If you can show that the rating you received was incorrect as per the guidelines for said rating then you very much have standing. And since the rating is received in compensation and it has value it is consideration.

A simple way show that it is both standing and consideration is this. Who pays for schools that don't give out grades? And the answer is that only a very small amount of people do, practically no one. Clearly, if grades were not part of the compensation, we would see many institutions ignore the actual grading aspect. And, beyond that, they would be very popular.

Why? Well, teaching is hard enough, but assessing is even more difficult. If grades did not matter and only education did, then schools which did not grade, but rather spent the entire time educating would be in high demand. In short, we are paying for assessment, and per the terms of the contract, the school has to give a fair assessment.

Now, as i said earlier, this does not mean that you're going to win, showing that you've been screwed is not easy as many classes have significant subjective aspects. But if you can, if you have the syllabus and the work that unambiguously shows that according to the syllabus you should have received an "A" then you're going to win.

But those cases don't make it to court, and they don't make it to court because schools know that they're going to lose and so the administrative remedies never get exhausted, they end up solving the problem.

[Paelos]

So your point is that it's possible, but it's never been tested. Great. All that tells me is that it's not a legal document because it's NEVER been established anywhere as a legal document. The syllabus wouldn't even be the thing you'd have to prove in the case of grade discrimination. You would have to prove that the professor comparatively gave you less than someone else, and it would have to be concrete. It couldn't be a subjective element.

Here's a case: "He did X and passed, I did X and failed, and the reason is that I was black/female/latino."

We can go round and round on this all you want, but you're speculating at best. It's best to deal in facts first and random speculation about "maybe if this certain situation happened somewhere at this time beyond all viable appeals" second.

[sinij]

 If anything, liberal arts portion of my education taught me to produce canned bullshit devoted of intelligent thought.  I wrote all of it myself, being ESL student and all, but noticed early on that least inspired, thoughtless papers produced best grades. I quickly discovered that papers where you regurgitate class notes without providing any meaningful input will produce best marks. Woe if you happen to disagree with professor and/or foolish enough to state it in the paper.

With this in mid, no wonder liberal education degrees are seen as a waste of time by the majority of employers.

[sinij]

he only classes where you'd have a chance would be course with nothing but multiple choice tests where the policy on curves/no curves was state unambiguously in advance in writing on the syllabus, where attendance, participation and other fuzzy issues weren't a part of the grade, again by explicit commitment on the syllabus.

Multiple choice exams are far from perfect. There is large body of evidence suggesting that MC exams do not measure learning, rather measure one's ability to study for MC exams.

[Goumindong]

You would have to prove that the professor comparatively gave you less than someone else, and it would have to be concrete

No, you would have to show that you received less than the syllabus provided. For instance, if you did the extra credit and then the professor modified the grading scale such that you no longer received an A.

You can show that you should have gotten an A because you have the grading scale that you signed up for. You can show that you did the required work because you have the work.

If you take the issue to your schools administrative board they will rectify the issue. And that they do is why you don't see court cases like this. I.E. it is possible for an issue to be so clear cut that it never needs to go to court. The cases where things go to court are the ones where there is a question to be answered.

[Vaiti]

It is literally impossible for goumindong not to have the last word on something.

[Paelos]

You would have to prove that the professor comparatively gave you less than someone else, and it would have to be concrete

No, you would have to show that you received less than the syllabus provided. For instance, if you did the extra credit and then the professor modified the grading scale such that you no longer received an A.

You can show that you should have gotten an A because you have the grading scale that you signed up for. You can show that you did the required work because you have the work.

If you take the issue to your schools administrative board they will rectify the issue. And that they do is why you don't see court cases like this. I.E. it is possible for an issue to be so clear cut that it never needs to go to court. The cases where things go to court are the ones where there is a question to be answered.

You realize how specious that reasoning is, right? I honestly hope you do. No evidence somehow means you are correct? Of course that's never going to go to court because the law doesn't want to waste it's time with deciding whether or not you deserved an A. The University will tell you to go fuck yourself and see if you can find a lawyer who would take such a stupid case. They won't because you can't claim a valid injury.

What I was saying is the only time you could talk about grades was in the case of discrimination, which has nothing to do with the syllabus. The injury is clear, and the damages are monetary, not just a grade fix.