Cracks starting to show?

[Amaron]

That's one problem with pushing pugs into old content.   When you try to come back to the game where all your friends quit it's not all that easy to just find a new group that fits you.

[Sjofn]

So they should come out with new content faster, so the older content gets nerfed and casuals can do it, but expecting casuals to do old content is bad, because no one wants to do "old" content, even if they've never done it themselves.

Gotcha.

[Paelos]

So they should come out with new content faster, so the older content gets nerfed and casuals can do it, but expecting casuals to do old content is bad, because no one wants to do "old" content, even if they've never done it themselves.

Gotcha.

It's never good to give your customers a very obvious expectations gap. Telling them that they can enjoy raiding is like telling your friends to join you for Thanksgiving and sticking them at the kiddy table. Then you can laugh with your real friends while they watch you eat a nice roasted turkey and you give them the leftovers from yesterday. It doesn't even matter if the leftovers are lobster and steak. It's still not a fresh turkey dinner with the cool kids.

People don't like hand-me-downs when it's obvious there's something better right there in front of you, especially when you're paying the same thing for it.

[Amaron]

So they should come out with new content faster, so the older content gets nerfed and casuals can do it, but expecting casuals to do old content is bad, because no one wants to do "old" content, even if they've never done it themselves.

That's exactly how it works out though.   Nobody wants to do old content.   Maybe you could change that but it's far easier to just let people do the current content and get the current rewards.   Hard modes are still there for real raiders.

[Sjofn]

I was more illustrating how people have very different ideas as to what is "wrong" with WoW right now.

[Amaron]

I was more illustrating how people have very different ideas as to what is "wrong" with WoW right now.

It would be helpful if people wouldn't toss in their own personal wants into a discussion of how WoW is screwing itself over.   I want LFD for raids, equal gear for all, and legendaries for super hard solo quests.   I don't confuse the lack of these as some tragic mistake on Blizzards part.

[Dren]

So they should come out with new content faster, so the older content gets nerfed and casuals can do it, but expecting casuals to do old content is bad, because no one wants to do "old" content, even if they've never done it themselves.

That's exactly how it works out though.   Nobody wants to do old content.   Maybe you could change that but it's far easier to just let people do the current content and get the current rewards.   Hard modes are still there for real raiders.

I had no problem doing content once it was made more casual.  It is all about the timing.  If they come out with content fast enough, you can, I believe, keep that feeling of "old content" to a minimum and still satisfy the casuals.  My guild never felt like they should be first at finishing a raid or even a heroic.  We always knew we would be way behind.  However, if we got to a point where we couldn't really advance due to our size and casual status and had to wait months to get anywhere, that's where the problem begins.  We all move on to other things, in-game or out.  That's when you can't expect people to care enough to come back to the raids because Blizzard decided to make them more casual too late.  Then it is "old content."

Cata felt to me like they actually made the raids and many of the heroics too hard for even the hardcore.  They spent too much time keeping the hardcore pace slow and ignored the casuals.  This is just a feeling I got which I didn't have during Wrath.  It felt more balanced throughout that expansion.

[Rendakor]

Honestly it would have been better if the 20% raid nerfs went through when the Zandalari stuff went live; that way everyone got to see it before Firelands came out.

[Paelos]

Honestly it would have been better if the 20% raid nerfs went through when the Zandalari stuff went live; that way everyone got to see it before Firelands came out.

That would have gone a long way, I agree. However, they seem to want to draw a thick red line between new content and puggable content.

[Paelos]

Today in FUCK YOU CATA, I'M OUT! Iseabal weighs in as both a player and stockholder.

[Merusk]

Just announced (No link as it was Facebook):  Recruit a Friend now gives Xp bonus all the way up to level 80.   

Seems to be a pretty big jump since it was only up to 60 previously.  They want new folks at the level cap NOW.

[Pantastic]

Cata felt to me like they actually made the raids and many of the heroics too hard for even the hardcore. 

I still think that the time on heroics was much bigger than the difficulty. If you go in, try and fail for 15-30 minutes and leave, you can try again later and haven't lost much. If you go in, spend 2-3 hours clearing through trash and early bosses to get to the end of grim batol or Deadmines, then can't beat the last boss, you've blown your whole evening for a normal person, and might even be past your usual end time. If heroics were set up as either timesinks OR as skill checks, there wouldn't have been much problem, but by combining the two they make it really likely that an average casual PUGer will end up having a lame evening with no carrot at the end.

I also think that the random dungeon finder rewards have tied Blizzard's hands on dungeon design, but they didn't really realize it when making Cataclysm. Since people have to do a random to get the valor points, they end up experiencing all of the dungeons. In previous expansions, if had somewhere that was just too long, difficult, or annoying, you could skip it or only run it with a good group. Now, people are forced to hit their heads on any brick walls, and are actually more likely to hit a wall than get an easy one, so it's a much bigger deal to players.

[apocrypha]

They want new folks at the level cap NOW.

More about covering over the glaring contrast between the revamped 1-60 and Outland (and to a far lesser extend, Northrend) by speeding people through it in half the time.

[Ingmar]

Nah, I think they just recognize they need to get people to the cap faster, that's always the problem with old MMOs. LotRO just gave everyone a +25% experience thing to prep for the next level bump, DAOC added /level and the bonus level thing, etc. etc. etc.

[Amaron]

Just announced (No link as it was Facebook):  Recruit a Friend now gives Xp bonus all the way up to level 80.   

Doing Wrath for 68-80 is so horrible now that this is probably the smartest thing I've seen them do in a while.

[Sjofn]

I still like doing Wrath, personally. It's Outlands I don't like. And honestly, I could do without doing Hyjal, Vashj'ir, or Stonecore again.

[Ashamanchill]

For the love of me I don't know why they don't give of the ghost and just get to some sort of insta 85 program. Like, if you have one 85  already, you get another one free, or if you have two or something. I know the obvious flaws, like 'I don't want a fresh 85 in my PUG, or BG, or what have you', but there are work arounds to that. Plus, I think the advantages to that would out weigh the costs.

[Fordel]

It would make top end raiders and their raid comps pretty god damn hilarious.


"How many arcane mages can we fit into this thing!"



I'm not actually sure it really is Arcane Mages that are the 'best' dps atm, but the point stands.

[Paelos]

I could see if you have two 85s, you get a free 80, or something like that.

It would be a good promotion. You just start in the newest content levelling immediately.

[Sjofn]

1-60 is too fast as it is. 

[proudft]

I would be much more on board with a 'you get an alt from 1-60, we bump it to 85' program.  Pretty tired of everything Outlands and later.

[Azuredream]

New "skip the previous expansions!" promotion?

(yours for a low one time-fee of 10$ per character)

[Ingmar]

I'd pay for a few almost certainly.

Other things I would absolutely pay, say, $15 for: a 3rd talent spec for a character.

[Miasma]

I'd pay for a few almost certainly.

Other things I would absolutely pay, say, $15 for: a 3rd talent spec for a character.

I'm not an rmt hater but even I would quit in disgust if I had to pay for a third talent spec.  You know, if I hadn't already quit in disgust.  Since I don't run out of subscription time until November sometimes I feel like uncanceling just so I can cancel in disgust again.

They can do that shit if they go to a free to play model but there is no way in hell they are stupid enough to do that anytime soon.

Edit: Never resub to an MMO after a night of drinking, you might do something dumb like subscribe for six months.  Also, Hellgate London lifetime subscription...

[Rokal]

I could see if you have two 85s, you get a free 80, or something like that.

It would be a good promotion. You just start in the newest content levelling immediately.

The problem is, 1-60 *was* the expansion/newest content. Using RAF before Cata made the leveling process more bearable from 1-60. Using RAF after Cata is like strapping on Rocket Boots. You see like 10% of the 'new' 1-60 content (out-leveling zones after about 10 quest), and then you got dumped into Outlands and Northrend to go at a snails pace. At least now Outlands/Northrend will go faster, but you're still left with a small amount of content from 80-85 and at the level cap.

RAF just doesn't really work based on what the expansion is.

[Simond]

Also 1-60 is better content all round than 80-85.

[Rokal]

Also 1-60 is better content all round than 80-85.

It really depends on what zones you do from 1-60. Some of the remakes were less well-done than others. In general though, I'd say the 80-85 zones are better than the 1-60 zones.

[Ingmar]

The problem with the 80-85 zones (as well as a few of the 1-60 zones to be fair) is they're just too long, and in some cases important stuff you need to open up is really far into the too-long zone progression (shoulder enchant vendor for example.)

It would feel a lot better (especially for repeat leveling) if there were 10 zones that were half as big.

[Sjofn]

God, you can say that again. It takes forever to open up the ER vendor, it takes forever to get the shoulder enchant lady, etc. In WotLK, you'd still have to do a decently long chain to open up the shoulder guy, but that was the only one. All the other rep merchants were available right away, you could hit friendly and get your tabard relatively quickly and go on your merry way, etc. Cataclysm makes you slog through a lot more shit to get to most of those guys ... and the one merchant that you don't have to do that for is Hyjal. Which you now have to do if you want to do the new dailies. It's shitty and way, way, way less alt-friendly. And given I think the ease of alts was a big draw for a lot of people ...

[Amaron]

I still like doing Wrath, personally. It's Outlands I don't like. And honestly, I could do without doing Hyjal, Vashj'ir, or Stonecore again.

Outlands was horrible but now you can essentially skip any zone you dislike because you only need something like 2 zones total to go from 58~68.

[Sjofn]

Two zones is still too many for me.

[Ratman_tf]

New "skip the previous expansions!" promotion?

I would have paid money to skip Cata leveling and just raid, when it came out.

[Rendakor]

I don't think you actually have to do any quests to open up the Earthen Ring vendor (the one in Vashj'ir, right?); I've flown out there on numerous toons then swam down into Silvertide Hollow and he's there.

[Merusk]

Yeah, I've only done the Vash quests up to the seahorse on a few toons and they can all access the ER vendor.

[caladein]

Yes, the ER quartermaster is always available no matter your quest status.  You should actually be able to fly into Vashj'ir from the mainland without too much hassle if you've got a 280%+ mount.