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Author Topic: New Champions  (Read 17721 times)
Chimpy
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Reply #35 on: December 02, 2010, 01:59:03 AM

I played a match against him in my one of the day. He was actually not as bad as I expected. His big ass ground effect needs to be a lot easier to see though it blends in almost entirely on the halloween map.


'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Prospero
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Reply #36 on: December 02, 2010, 11:39:30 AM

He's pretty solid from what I could tell last night. He's a pretty fast jungler, tough to kill in a fight, and does great damage. i'm looking forward to seeing him and Anivia on the same team.
DLRiley
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Reply #37 on: December 02, 2010, 12:51:01 PM

He's pretty solid from what I could tell last night. He's a pretty fast jungler, tough to kill in a fight, and does great damage. i'm looking forward to seeing him and Anivia on the same team.
I see the nerf hammer coming.
Prospero
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Reply #38 on: December 02, 2010, 01:13:43 PM

Which aspect in particular? I don't disagree; I think his AoE slow/block brings way more utility to a team the other junglers, and he jungles just as well.
Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #39 on: December 02, 2010, 01:52:15 PM

Lux is going to be considered OP some time in the next six months.  Bet it.  I plan to buy her once I can afford to not use the default skin which sucks all sorts of balls her snare is fucking amazing and if you ward for counter jungle she can steal dragon and a buff from bot lane with a little practice.

The US server has proven that it sucks at innovation.  How long was Corki good and nobody used him?  Why are there now Sivir is OP threads on GD because a team ran Sivir + Taric in the newegg wanfest tourny?  That combo has been good since forever but people forget it in favor of fotw Malphite top or Gragas doing anything or whatever fotw is.  How long did the tank meta not exist when it could have?  Garen was unchanged for months before people realized stack sunfire = win.

I think that some old champs are being overshadowed but people are so quick to think they know what is good and what isn't.  Fucking Swain can beast now, he's essentially an AP version of what Nasus was at his prime.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Thrawn
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Reply #40 on: December 02, 2010, 01:55:22 PM

If someone hasn't recently posted a thread in General crying they are OP, they haven't been used to win a recent tournament, or they aren't listed as "Tier 1" on some forum star's list  the champion sucks.

At least thats how it seems most people judge how "good/bad" a character is.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Typhon
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Reply #41 on: December 02, 2010, 03:35:24 PM

At my level of play (scrub), Trundle is ... well, he's really good.  His ability to control a skirmish with E is annoying as fuck in the hands of someone that has been using him for only three games (granted, that person is pretty good with this sort of thing).  I shudder to think of what a top-level player can do with it.

Add to that the toughness and decent to very good damage output (depending on build) and the rest of his kit and, yeah, he's really good.

I agree with your Swain assessment Hoax.  He doesn't have burst, so folks immediately think he's not good because all AP should have burst.
DLRiley
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Reply #42 on: December 03, 2010, 01:27:20 PM

Lux is going to be considered OP some time in the next six months.  Bet it.  I plan to buy her once I can afford to not use the default skin which sucks all sorts of balls her snare is fucking amazing and if you ward for counter jungle she can steal dragon and a buff from bot lane with a little practice.

The US server has proven that it sucks at innovation.  How long was Corki good and nobody used him?  Why are there now Sivir is OP threads on GD because a team ran Sivir + Taric in the newegg wanfest tourny?  That combo has been good since forever but people forget it in favor of fotw Malphite top or Gragas doing anything or whatever fotw is.  How long did the tank meta not exist when it could have?  Garen was unchanged for months before people realized stack sunfire = win.

I think that some old champs are being overshadowed but people are so quick to think they know what is good and what isn't.  Fucking Swain can beast now, he's essentially an AP version of what Nasus was at his prime.

Riot says it wants to balance for top play but what i suspect is happening is that they are nerfing in accordance with when the top tier play eventually trickles down to the bottom. For example dorans blade, the issue i was like rofl there are better items, and every "high level player" is using them in all the live streams. Guessed what the 1200's rank guys are using, doran blade stacks. Week later doran nerf.
Typhon
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Reply #43 on: December 03, 2010, 03:07:43 PM

Haven't we talked about this before?  For a jungler you really couldn't beat 360 health, 18 damage and 12% lifesteal for 1305 gold, especially the way that 435 gold fit into the jungling order so nicely.  Nothing else was even close.
DLRiley
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Reply #44 on: December 03, 2010, 03:31:33 PM

Haven't we talked about this before?  For a jungler you really couldn't beat 360 health, 18 damage and 12% lifesteal for 1305 gold, especially the way that 435 gold fit into the jungling order so nicely.  Nothing else was even close.

I was talking about why balance happened not the item itself.
Typhon
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Reply #45 on: December 04, 2010, 08:44:11 AM

Gotcha.

I think it's more complicated then simply "anything that the high elo does will get nerfed".  I agree that they use the high elo as a filter - if a large percentage of the high elo does it, it's probably a sucessful strategy.

At that point they ask themselves if they feel like whatever strat/build/champ etc that is reaching "must have/must do" status is something they think is good for the game.  What they think is best for the game is if a wide variety of champs/items/builds/etc are competitive (let's call it 'diversity').  I also happen to think that is good for the game.  I think they've been pretty clear in wanting a game with a great deal of diversity. 

I like the way they tuned the Doran's items - they didn't hard-cap the number that you could have, so multiple Doran's builds are still possible.  They are just less optimal.  If you happen to die at a time when you could afford a Doran's, but nothing else, then it might still make sense to get one.
DLRiley
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Reply #46 on: December 04, 2010, 12:19:16 PM

Gotcha.

I think it's more complicated then simply "anything that the high elo does will get nerfed".  I agree that they use the high elo as a filter - if a large percentage of the high elo does it, it's probably a sucessful strategy.

At that point they ask themselves if they feel like whatever strat/build/champ etc that is reaching "must have/must do" status is something they think is good for the game.  What they think is best for the game is if a wide variety of champs/items/builds/etc are competitive (let's call it 'diversity').  I also happen to think that is good for the game.  I think they've been pretty clear in wanting a game with a great deal of diversity. 

I like the way they tuned the Doran's items - they didn't hard-cap the number that you could have, so multiple Doran's builds are still possible.  They are just less optimal.  If you happen to die at a time when you could afford a Doran's, but nothing else, then it might still make sense to get one.

Its a trickle down effect. In the beta the high elo community couldn't be observed and the vast majority of players had only guess work and forums to determine what is effective.Tier list became popular during that time. Nerfs generally happened when what happens in the top tier of play started to show up in the lower tiers, like the 1200 ranks where the vast majority of the playerbase is stuck in. Which means that there is a huge lag between when a build becomes popular in the top rankings to when it gets nerfed. This lag is shortening because of live streams, but its not getting better because the game has a great volume of diversity (mostly due to the new champs being released almost biweekly) that shit literally disappears from the meta only to return with vengeance after people forgot how to counter it.
Samprimary
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Reply #47 on: December 04, 2010, 01:03:38 PM

Haven't we talked about this before?  For a jungler you really couldn't beat 360 health, 18 damage and 12% lifesteal for 1305 gold, especially the way that 435 gold fit into the jungling order so nicely.  Nothing else was even close.

I've been playing unaltered since the adjustment to see what the change did. It's close, but not quite enough. It still enhances the curve too greatly for ranged carry, to the extent that if we still play the stack card, there's a 5-10 minute window where we will get an average of four kills and 2-3 towers.

It would be fine if this was a power progression gamble, leaving us at a significant enough risk of falling behind in power progression, but it's still just giving us a mid-game boost that comes at minimal cost overall, pays for itself in tower kills and ganks, so on, so forth.

I think they need to make the doran's items completely unstackable and stick with that.
Thrawn
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Reply #48 on: December 04, 2010, 03:08:15 PM

Damnit, wtb delete button.

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Der Helm
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Reply #49 on: December 14, 2010, 06:39:07 PM

Still at work, so how is the new Snake Lady ?

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Kail
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Reply #50 on: December 14, 2010, 08:49:26 PM

Only played two games with her, so take this with a grain of salt, but she seems okay to me.  She didn't do well when I played against her in normal games, but in practice games she seems decent.  She's got incredibly good harassment during the laning phase, amazing farming (I'm tempted to try jungling with her, but she doesn't have any way to heal or avoid damage), very spammable spells with a solid amount of AoE DoT.  Her passive makes it easy for her to cast whatever she wants whenever she wants to cast it.  Her Q and W are both AoE poison spells, with W being targetted normally and Q going wherever the mouse cursor is (like Karthus' Reese's Pieces), which makes it easy for her to poison a lot of targets at once.  For CC she's got a minor slow and her ult, which is harder to position than something like Amumu's ult but still pretty effective (especially in smaller skirmishes) and it's got a more manageable cooldown.

On the negative side, range is a bit of an issue with her, I felt.  Her ult, especially, you have to be right up in the enemy's nose if you want to hit more than one or two of them.  Her AoEs have fairly small radii and if you miss with them, you're screwed until they come off cooldown.  Her burst is kind of flukey, too, it basically consists of casting her E over and over again and if your target is not poisoned when it hits, you're stuck with a long cooldown, which means you're clicking like a maniac trying to keep people poisoned with Q and W and nuke them with E on it's half second cooldown.  If you can pull this off, she looks like she'd be a beast, but I've yet to meet someone who can.

For items, the big one that jumps out at me would be Archangel's Staff, considering how spammy she is.  Might want to go Rod of Ages for mana and health too, but both of them together make a very late build so I dunno.  She's definitely got the farming skills for it, but so much of her effectiveness is from her early game harassment during the laning phase that it seems like she'd be a decent "take mid, rush soulstealer, gank side lanes for stacks" kind of champ.
Typhon
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Reply #51 on: December 15, 2010, 07:35:54 AM

I think Kail's assessment is good.

Only a couple things to add:

I read her ability descriptions and thought, ok, I want to focus on getting E up as much as possible as that will be my burst.  The write-up makes it sound as if her E cooldown is completely removed.  It's not, there is still a half second before it's good to go again.  While this doesn't sound like it's very long, E has a shorter range than Q or W.  If you aren't sure that you'll be able to finish someone off with two or three E's, trying to land it will get you killed (versus any champ with CC).

In practice I think that Q and W should receive the leveling priority.  A same-level Q does more significantly more damage than a same-level E.  If an enemy is stupid enough to be attacking someone else while you are in E range, they are probably dead due to their own stupidity anyway, and you are just trying to steal the kill from someone else.  A jack-up Q + W in concert with something like a Galio ult would be pretty nasty.  Follow it up with your ult, and a re-applicaiton of Q + W... yeah, that would be a lot of damage.

I built archangels, Rylai's, spirit visage, sorc boots.  I didn't really like this build, but I was able to spam like a madman and never run out, but as mentioned it took forever to come up to speed.

I'm thinking that she'd benefit greatly from cooldown reduction, so probably build the tear of the goddess, then switch over to deathfire grasp to give some initial burst and cooldown reduction.
Astorax
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Reply #52 on: December 15, 2010, 10:45:55 AM

She really doesn't need archangel's.  Her passive makes her pretty damn efficient, and Q is only 35 mana.

I played her last night a few times, and my favorite build for the night was for sure Rylai's into a Lich Bane, with a Majai's inbetween those if you're doing really well.

Masteries went 9/0/21 for max mana regen, with the magic pen.  Kept me from really needing to build any mana items hardly at all.  The slight mana boost from Sheen early on (Go Rylai's->Sheen->Majai's->Lich Bane), combined with my summoner spells (ghost/talented clarity) kept me in plenty of mana to do what needed to be done.  E is actually kinda weak, and has her worst AP ratio of her abilities (.5).  So I level Q/W first and do a more poison harass than straight burst.  Less kills probably than I could have been getting, but at the same time, lots of assists, and amazing harass as you don't have to get up in their grill to harass them hardly at all.  It's BRUTAL on melee champs as you can use W on the backside of their melee creeps and they can't get in close to last hit, and if they try, you can hit 'em with Q to harass.

Her ult felt more defensive to me honestly. Since it requires them all to be facing you to stun, if they're paying attention, you won't really hit many of them even in a team fight unless you're right up with your initiator, which means you'll probably get focused and die...much better to hang back, poison the group up, keep an eye out and when their main carry faces you, then use it to take them out of things.

The combo I really want to see, is a Vlad/Cass combo.  Hemoplague's extra dmg combined with your AoE poison should in theory be a total nightmare.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #53 on: February 01, 2011, 02:35:21 PM

There is no way Karma isn't overpowered.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 02:42:42 PM by tazelbain »

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Der Helm
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Reply #54 on: February 01, 2011, 02:38:57 PM

This is no way Karma isn't overpowered.
Is she (she?) getting patched in today ?

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Mosesandstick
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Reply #55 on: February 01, 2011, 03:15:51 PM

Should be.
schild
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Reply #56 on: February 02, 2011, 01:51:11 AM

Karma needs a buff. Too weak midgame. Crap endgame. RIDICULOUS EARLY GAME.

She's torn between being burst like Kass and support like Soraka.

Basically, she's a bad Janna.
DLRiley
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Reply #57 on: February 03, 2011, 01:35:24 PM

Riot follows the age old traditional of making power = cup size.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 11:02:31 AM by DLRiley »
Muffled
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Reply #58 on: February 03, 2011, 09:18:41 PM

Riot follows the age of traditional of making power = cup size.

wat

Never mind, I decoded it.
Typhon
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Reply #59 on: February 03, 2011, 09:43:35 PM

Missed talking about Renekton when he came out.  Been playing him over Olaf (and Udyr) and I like him a lot.  CDR is king, AD or tank depending on the game.  Just tremendous mobility.  Since the patch, Qx2 (for fury and health), max W, then max E.  W with 50% fury does good damage.  Need to play him a bunch to get a feel for where you can go with E, thick walls you will bounce off of.
Kail
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Reply #60 on: February 03, 2011, 10:09:16 PM

Missed talking about Renekton when he came out.  Been playing him over Olaf (and Udyr) and I like him a lot.  CDR is king, AD or tank depending on the game.  Just tremendous mobility.  Since the patch, Qx2 (for fury and health), max W, then max E.  W with 50% fury does good damage.  Need to play him a bunch to get a feel for where you can go with E, thick walls you will bounce off of.

I played him before the patch and, despite really wanting to like him (no mana + lifesteal + on-command stun sounds like a win) couldn't get him to do anything.  Got first and second blood in one match and then jack all for the whole rest of the game because I couldn't get past their tank.  Seemed like he was a character that needs a lot of farm, like Trynd, but with worse farming ability.  Q+E doesn't do enough to take out an entire minion wave, which makes him pretty slow at farming compared to a lot of other melee champs.  And his E was so damn short range (especially when there's no enemies nearby to proc dice) that I was having serious mobility problems with him.

Has the patch really improved him that much?  I want to like him, but I'm hesitant to try him again after my last debacle.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #61 on: February 03, 2011, 11:39:43 PM

Ya I really dig Rene, but he's just not that good.

He's kinda stuck between a hard carry and a tank......and not in the 'oh sweet he's got the best of both worlds' seats, if you know what I mean.

Tank build are the only viable(ish) ones I've found. Him as a carry is just inferior to Yi, or Twitch, or Poppy, or Olaf, or most other melee carries.






As an aside, I've gone back to Poppy these days for a variety of reasons (okay it was rather pavlovian: my buddy had an Oscar fish that he named Poppy who would charge any other fish in the tank until they hit the glass.....she died recently, and playing Poppy reminds me of her.), and I've done okay with her. Anyone have any success stories with her as AP? AD?

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Typhon
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Reply #62 on: February 04, 2011, 07:05:54 AM

Has the patch really improved him that much?  I want to like him, but I'm hesitant to try him again after my last debacle.

No.  If you were struggling with him pre-patch, you'll struggle with him post-patch.  He's an intimidation character.  He has a strong mid-game, and you should take advantage of that to stomp some folks, so that by the end game they see you and want to kill you really badly, and you use your stun and speed to make that not happen while your ranged dps fucks them up.
DLRiley
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Reply #63 on: February 04, 2011, 11:06:22 AM

Rene reminds me of udry when he was first released waaaaaay back in beta.
Ozzu
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Reply #64 on: February 05, 2011, 08:16:05 PM

I picked up Karma since I had the IP for her.

I'm wishing I would have picked up someone else. Not a fan really.
schild
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Reply #65 on: February 06, 2011, 10:34:14 PM

She's so bad.
Samprimary
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Reply #66 on: February 08, 2011, 05:14:29 PM

bad karma?

(truthposting: she bad)
schild
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Reply #67 on: February 08, 2011, 10:44:58 PM

16/2/3 with 6 buildings and 180 creeps killed with a 24 minute win is good right?

I fucking love Miss Fortune.
Megrim
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Whenever an opponent discards a card, Megrim deals 2 damage to that player.


Reply #68 on: February 15, 2011, 08:32:46 PM

I picked up Karma since I had the IP for her.

I'm wishing I would have picked up someone else. Not a fan really.

Played her for a bit, now that she's free. Excellent support actually, I don't know why people are complaining about here being bad.

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Astorax
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Reply #69 on: February 16, 2011, 12:27:45 PM

I picked up Karma since I had the IP for her.

I'm wishing I would have picked up someone else. Not a fan really.

Played her for a bit, now that she's free. Excellent support actually, I don't know why people are complaining about here being bad.

Because they don't want her to be support, they want her to be a caster carry...which she isn't.

The thing is though, as support, she brings nothing to the table that another support doesn't do better than her.  She has a shield, Morganna's shield's better....hell, Lux's shield absorbs more.  The extra damage from it isn't really all that much and is situational and requires really good timing to be effective.  Her speed/slow is decent, but again, I'd take Morganna's skillshot or Lux's skillshot any day of the week.  Her cone attack does some okay dmg late game, but again, she's support, so her damage likely won't end up that high and for creeping, soil farms way better.  As for ults, she doesn't have one...she has an empowerment...WOOO, I'd rather have an ult.

Basically, she's a high skill champion to play well, but that negates her only advantage over the other caster support (skillshots requiring a higher skill level to land).  So if you already have a higher skilled player, play Lux or Morgana, they're better support casters in almost every way than Karma right now.
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